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Thread: Tactical Automag prototype thread. Please help.

  1. #31
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    Is there any way that you can move the loader to the side of the maker and put one of those tippmann A-5 fore grips under the barrel I think that would be more comfortable.



    It would be cool if some one made this in to a wood ball marker

  2. #32
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    That actually wouldn't be difficult to do with a mag. Since everything in internal all you would have to do is mount it to a rifle stock. The hard part would be making a trigger mechanism. I will take a look at it and see what I can come up with.

  3. #33
    PLEASE work a foregrip into that mag. my friend has a q loader (although he got smart and bought a halo w/ a cheetah board) and it makes the gun overly front heavy. not having a foregrip would kill the whole concept.

    Quote Originally Posted by famousgamer
    I cant sleep. Can you tell?

    Okay, so here is an interesting starting point. I do NOT want the design to end here. I think it can be improved greatly, tho it is already an improvment over the Black Cell in my opinion. More mask clearance, smaller package, lower profile, etc.



    Ugh. It makes me like the Q loader even more. I kinda dont want to, but... ugh. It might be a better choice rather than the warp feed. I am torn.

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by blitzmercenary
    PLEASE work a foregrip into that mag. my friend has a q loader (although he got smart and bought a halo w/ a cheetah board) and it makes the gun overly front heavy. not having a foregrip would kill the whole concept.

    Whoa. I never considered that. Thanks for the heads up. Also thanks craltal and you guys.

    Since a paintball mask has to get behind, over and around a paintball marker, mask clearance is of paramount importance. I think the pictures speak for themselves. I have put my masked face up to a rifle stock, and disliked the fact I could not look over, or get my head over the stock without putting the butt down. You also can not look down a markers focal plane with a high stock. I want a shooter to be able to rest the stock on their chest, if need be, to see either way in certain situations. With a high stock this is impossible, unless the gun is being rested on your mask.

    Therefore, I am not even going to bother designing a rifle stock. For every rifle style stock Special Ops makes, they sell another off set sight mount, or overly huge sight riser to compensate for the lack of mask clearance... and they are not honest about the fact that their stocks like that are primarily for looks, not function. They are gouging, and I dont like it. They sell marker setups for people to shoot in their backyard with no mask fine, and when they hit the feild they realize how useless a stock is without mask clearance.

    This woodsy marker we are forging is all function, and sometimes looks have to be sacrificed. I am pretty stoked about the air-thru stock, and I am thinking that is our base stock design.

    Speaking of function... I too am stuck on the Qloader vs warp feed debate. Having not used a warp myself, I am very curious about it. Does it make much noise? I personally dislike batteries, but I also dislike my QLoader getting rested on obsticles and potentially snapping off. I am also worried about the weight being at the front of the marker. I do not want holding this marker in a firing position for a long time to be a burden. A warp would move the weight right beside the grip, where the weight is central and balanced (if not a little offset to the side). Bottom line is: Warp feeds are ugly and use batteries, and that scares me. They could be the leg up tho.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheAngryDrunkenRussian
    Is there any way that you can move the loader to the side of the maker and put one of those tippmann A-5 fore grips under the barrel I think that would be more comfortable.



    It would be cool if some one made this in to a wood ball marker

    something along these lines



    As for the warp question, you are looking at carrying 3-4 9V batteries, 2 in the loader and 1-2 in the warp. You have 2 separate and distinct motors running, so there is a good bit of noise
    Last edited by craltal; 01-18-2006 at 01:37 PM.

  6. #36
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    The thing I have encountered with people using a warp and a q loader is that you either love them or hate them. That brings me to the conclusion that we need to develop a way to have either one. I don't see this being a big problem. I prefer having the front grip. I've hunted all my life and I am used to shooting a rifle BUT paintball is still different. With a fully loaded hopper, warp or q loader, the weight is more than a regular rifle (or atleast it seems that way). Plus it's distributed different. The front grip is a must. Plus it gives a place to mount a q loader.

  7. #37
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    Just an opinion on the Q-loader that might help you out. I've fired both Tippmann A5's and Classic mags with Qs on them. While the marker weight was more forward it was not such that it tipped.

    The largest difference was that both had bottles slung on them via drop forwards and not via remote. With the bottle on the marker it was actually very balanced.

    I've really enjoyed reading this thread and hope you actually move forward with some of these designs. I personally like the top feed option per the Q-bow and Ion setup. The way the feed-hose exits the Q makes it a very smooth transition. Unless Q-loaders start offering a cap that has it come out the back, the path you will take to attach to a warp feed body without a 90 degree adapt. will be a big "C".

    I would very much like to see a sling point incorporated in your hardware. Playing scenario with a mag and no sling makes for a very sore arm.

    One thing you could do to make this more appealing to more mag owners is accommodate direct-feed and power-feed bodies.
    Lvl X TKO Automag PF/HL, Intelliframe, a Simmons 30mm Red Dot and a J&J 12" Ceramic barrel.
    Crossfire 68/4500
    -------------------------------------
    Die Hard Woods Player

  8. #38
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    this real interesting i am looking forward to seeing a solution btw i put this post up in the spec ops forums as well. after some people give their input i will link it over here to the ao forums ahh screw it i'll do it now.

    http://forum.specialopspaintball.com...=0#entry444798

    i also found a review of the longbow on the spec ops website plus i fond pics of the longbow with a ruler hopefully they would help you

    http://forum.specialopspaintball.com...=longbow&st=15
    Last edited by LONEWOLFOO1; 01-18-2006 at 05:03 PM.
    BACK IN THE GAME.


  9. #39
    Good reads. I love coming back to this thread and seeing more stuffs!

    I am actually a professional wargames miniature sculptor (warhammer, reaper, etc.) and this is a great thing to do while waiting for my epoxy putty to dry! (takes two hours at a time)

    I could actually sculpt a prototype as well, if need be, to send to the machinist. I am not sure if this will be needed however, but may help in finding a comfy shape in the first place. I could also mail you the sculpt DSR75, and you could carry it on if you like?

    Okay, so I am leaning a lil more towards the Q now. No batteries (3-4 9V batteries, eep!) and a nice look make it contender.

    Actually, this is really kinda shaping up to be a Black Cell Automag of sorts. We can still improve on mask clearance, and cleaning up all those hose lines tho. I think that giving it a shorter barrel and a little bit of a shorter distance in the stock mount may also improve on the design.

    I will experiment making designs for vert feeds, as was suggested. It is a good idea. I was considering that people could just switch out entire frames to suit their feed method, but since there are low rise warp adapters (that can be used on Qloaders I think) it makes it possible to have a design VERY similar to the Black Cell, at a fraction of the price (hopefully), and less fuss.

    At any rate, using the hugley popular Black Cell as a starting point isnt all that bad I suppose.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by craltal
    snap shooting with a stock? That's a lot of motion. I'd love to watch that. There are reasons that speedball guns are short, light, and not run remotely.

    As for shooting POV, it's up to the individual shooter. Look at the pictures that were posted with the rifle/ shotgun shooters. With the exception of the drawing with the m-16, everyone of them could be wearing a paintball mask and still have enough clearance, not that we actually play that way. As for the FAMAS picture, you are failing to recognize that while there is a lot of "stuff" above the level of the stock, it still sits inline with the body of the gun and the barrel aiding in keeping the weapon steady. You also have the added benefit that a bullet actually travels in a straight line, for all intents and purposes at the ranges we deal with, while paintballs do not.

    As for the rear holes stepping out, have you ever seen one? There are wings that extend after the holes towards the back, but the holes must be inline otherwise the RT sight rail wouldn't fit. I just brought it up as it would require less modification the the gun.

    I give you kudos for the thoughts and am not trying to stifle your creativity, in fact I'm trying to help you think a bit more broadly. My ideas might not help, but at least I'm making you think a bit.

    If it's worth doing, it's worth doing properly.

    [/beating horse]
    As for snap shooting with a stock, his designs are not that bad. I've been running a stock off the grip frame for years, and my setup is lighter than any standard speedball rig. I can snap shoot very quickly -- as fast or faster than a tank mounted to the marker rig. If you haven't tried it, you'll be surprised --- providing there is enough room for proper sight alignment (or sighting down the barrel).

    The only limitation is that you do have the remote line to work with, and it doesn't interfere unless you attempt to switch from right to left side shooting.

    Here's my versions using JCS products:

    http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24...R/DSCF0048.jpg

    http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24...scout30008.jpg



    HLD...
    Last edited by HOMELANDEFENDER; 01-18-2006 at 06:04 PM.

  11. #41
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    After doing some searching I found a picture of what it looks like with a properly executed firing position using a stock mounted low such as on my gear. If he mounts the thing low enough, it should be fine.





    HLD...
    Last edited by HOMELANDEFENDER; 01-18-2006 at 06:15 PM.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheAngryDrunkenRussian
    Is there any way that you can move the loader to the side of the maker and put one of those tippmann A-5 fore grips under the barrel I think that would be more comfortable.



    It would be cool if some one made this in to a wood ball marker
    Are you sure you really want one???

    http://www.extremesportsandhobbies.com/m14.html



    HLD...

  13. #43
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    now all we need now is a tac one warp frame i ask this question a while back when tom was still around i guess it was drop here is the post maybe if you chime in we can get it done

    http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=131303

  14. #44
    Whoa, nice gun and thanks for the research HOMELANDDEFENDER. I am thinking I am still drawing the stock too high up. Hmm. I will base some more drawings around that excellent firing pose.

    Funny how I cant find ONE picture of a person sighting up a Longbow online. I dont even think it is possible with a paintball mask on to be honest. (without risers, offset doo dads, yadda yadda)

    Anywho, check this out.



    and not alot lower then the original Black Cell Ion


  15. #45


    Clearly a human head wearing a paintball mask is not going to fit BEHIND the Longbow. It will fit BESIDE the longbow. Id rather get behind the marker personally, as depicted excellently in HOMELANDDEFENDER's picture.

    That is a deadly marker too by the way. Hmm. Makes me wonder if I should take my design back a few notches, back to basics. Something a little uglier and a little more light, and in the end more effective.
    Last edited by famousgamer; 01-18-2006 at 08:12 PM.

  16. #46
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    Here's a head on of the A5 with JCS stock to show sight picture...





    HLD...
    Last edited by HOMELANDEFENDER; 01-18-2006 at 09:33 PM.

  17. #47
    The stock is mounted upside down on that one. You actually clear the tac cap with that lil mounting rail. Thats a cool setup. Sweet. Well, I am pretty convinced that the stock gonna stay nice and low for a good tight shooting stance.

    Where did you get that mask/helmet Homeland? Looks pretty lightweight and paintbal friendly.

  18. #48
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    I like what I've seen of your designs, they're all pretty sweet and I bet I'd be happy using any of them, but for what it's worth I'll offer my two cents.

    First, why not a "dogleg" style stock of the sort they sell at Spec Ops Paintball? Do something that curves around the mask and it'd work a lot better, I think. The marker would have better lines, shorter profile, and still have room for a mask. Maybe do an L-shaped stock, attached to the bottom of the gripframe with the end protruding upwards? I'll Photoshop something if you don't understand, but right now I'm lazy.

    In terms of the Qloader vs Warp thing, I'd say go Qloader. Since it's milsim, the "clip" thing seems to fit with it better. Keep in mind if you're doing a custom marker, you can easily mount it somewhere other than slung under the barrel so it won't be in your way. On the other hand, if you're still looking for a Warp to test out, drop me a PM.

    My advice, though, would be to stick to bent aluminum and keep it simple, yet effective. If you really want to beat the Q-Bow, make something more effective that costs less. And try to stay away from using their parts, nothing says "rip off" like parts from the marker that inspired it. Oh, to answer your question about overly long barrels, keep in mind that it's designed for paintball "snipers" who like to stay hidden. The longer the barrel, the further back in cover the sniper can be.

    Keep up the good work!

  19. #49
    Your designs look good, I saw where you were looking for a qloader mounted on a Mag so although the picture quality is poor here you are.




    That's my son holding it. right now I'm just using the air tank as a stock, and I have added a red dot scope.

  20. #50
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    How custom are you wanting to get? Are you willing to make an intigrated rail, frame, and stock design? check out the berreta cx4, just cut the stock low. Have you seen that thing it is awsome http://www.cx4storm.com/

    Give me a day or two, I might make a concept drawing of what I have in mind.

  21. #51
    Thanks everyone for the continued support.

    Thanks Guru for the comments. I actually never thought about having a long barrel to peek from cover with. Not a bad idea actually. For me personally, and like most of us, I end up abusing a barrel that is too long, and you end up getting that much more energy used up by that extra length which worries me.

    A dogleg stock would be cool. They are indeed my fave out there for paintball. I will also try to design somehting in of this variety.

    Jet, am I safe to assume that your rig is: A powerfeed left frame with the powerfeed turned downwards pointing to the right and a lapco warp feed adapter (or a qloader adapter) going into the Qloader? Sorry, but I am kinda new to the automag setup. That is one short length of Qloader tubing! Excellent and very tight setup. Thanks for the pic. It looks like, with the sight riser, that you could get a very unobstructed field of view over the marker.

    This is interesting, because if it is a powerfeed just turned the one could just turn it back up and play with a hooper if they wanted, or if anything went wrong with the Qloader. Could be handy perhaps?

    Also, that is a good question MoeMag. I am not sure if a machinist can do a three dimentional rendering based on a cad file, or do a two dimentional cutting from a flat solid peice of aluminium, or if he will want to simply bend metal and grind peices, and assemble them liek that? Machining is REALLY new to me, but designing isnt. Ugh. Help DSR75. What kinda stuff does your dad do?

  22. #52
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    I put up a post on the specops forum about putting up a pic with themselves holding the longbow hopefully it would get answered.

  23. #53
    This is kinda the lynchpin of the design. Does the stock look good and go high (like the longbow, black cell), or become practical and go low (like the t-stock and JCS folding stock).

    At least one picture of someone sighting up with a Longbow would help indeed. Thanks for posting on the Spec Ops and getting that going.

  24. #54
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    You could mount the Qloader over the stock too that would put the weight on the back near the shoulder which is similar to what you would have now with a tank there ... also i was going to suggest mounting off the bottom of the grip frame but it looks like you've considered that in one of the other pics. On the issue of a long barrel most barrels are step hone or two piece barrels that have the second half of the barrel a larger bore than the back half so I dont think that they effect efficiency that drastically but the do silence the retort of the gun alot if they are ported, and it does help you to shoot through bushes etc while remaining hidden.

  25. #55
    Hmmm. That makes me think...

    There are only really four things we need to figure out, three of which are paramount...
    1- the loading/feeding system. This involves a loader and a mouth position.
    2- the stock. This is important as this is shaping up to be a woodsy stalker type marker that will probably have to be sighted up for long periods.
    3- the barrel choice. Long or short. Carbon or aluminium. On and on.

    and finally

    4- looks. This is important to me, because I like everything clean and tight. I think everyone does.

    Since we know the marker base is the AGD automag, that settles that. Also, which variety of mag to use is also important (classic, ULE custom, etc.) and what body type.

    So, knowing this it makes it kinda fun to debate and settle sections of the marker creation. Fun!

  26. #56
    and I think this should be the markers logo:

    A slightly larger stylized version of that would be fun, because it would remind us of the forum that helped us develop the marker in the first place.

  27. #57
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    Ok guys since their was no picture posted i just ordered the whole kit for myself. yes i know it is expensive but if it will help to develop a better automag then i am in. i just hope what is decided here I will get a nice discount on what ever is made from this post. now that i just kicked out 300 bucks you guys better come up with something. i think we all agreed that most of us will use the air thru stock that spec ops use.

    one thing i like about the spec ops shroud that it go well with the qloader since i don't own a warp frame.

    i am going for the qloader so i needed to buy the mag kit. i know i am getting raped but if we can machine something from it then i am down. just follow thru on what you say guys i just spent my turbo money. i was hoping by now that agd would have made a warp feed tac one body but, hopefully with this post they would make one. i hate the idea of takeing off my tac body i should have bought a rt ule custom. to begin with but the tac one look so cool

  28. #58
    Well Lonewolf, in regards to the Tac One issue, it is good we can all learn from that.

    In regards to investing in this design, I am all in. Based on the research you can do with the Spec Ops parts, I will gladly personally sculpt or pay for machining for prototypes, etc. I do not mind kicking in. I, by all means, want to see this woodsball carbine become a success.

    It would also be nice for AGD, as it would be another avenue for them to have a precense in woodsball.

  29. #59
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    i was on ops gear.com and i found some animations and stuff of guys holding stock guns.

    http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c....tegory.1259/.f

    http://www.opsmedia.net/images/anima...erwoodland.gif

    it looks like with some of the stocks you need to tilt your head in to get line of the sight.

  30. #60
    Hey good find. I like that Opsgear stuff, but man do they gouge you. If it were for airsoft, and not paintball, their prices would be more than cut in half. All in a name. Ugh.

    Excellent examples tho. There is a sight riser block, and they are using a tac cap, but it does look pretty comfy and well sighted. That is also an excellent stock shape. I am going to take a closer look in photoshop and gather where those eyelines are headed down the markers.

    Oh yeah, a potential logo?


    Kinda goofy, but very rootsy.

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