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Thread: Tactical Automag prototype thread. Please help.

  1. #151
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    i was looking around on the spec ops forum and somebody put this on their longbow my only problem is if i had to fire from my left would'nt i be in trouble. (face hitting shroud from left side) but a great effort from the guy

    RIDDICK
    There is a seperate piece that attaches to the stock that allows it to attach to the shroud with four little retractible domes. So, instead of the longbow stock right now, I have a dogleg stock on which helps with all of your complaints of the length and the line of sight. This is how mine it looks right now


    BACK IN THE GAME.


  2. #152
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    Tripp,
    We are wanting to get away from the raised sight rails. The lower the profile the better.

  3. #153
    ve seen that topic over at AO and i think they are taking it too far....

    -i dont think they hav figured out that posture is different with a "tactical" gun over a normal marker.
    -in some drawings they have taken the stock and mounted it all the way down where a bottle would be.

    talk to protocoach (or any other longbow/q-bow owner)... they all say that they have no problem with siting. like i said, i think they have taken it a bit too far over at AO.
    from the Spec Ops boards.

    I am very willing to admit I have gone too far once I see a dozen or more pictures of people sighting up their longbows with ease. Hundreds of people own a longbow, and I am pretty sure that after shelling out the cash to buy a Longbow some may have enough personal wealth to own and operate a digital camera.

    The stock is in the wrong spot on the Longbow, in my opinion. Other people have their opinions too, and thats fine. I am man enought to admit when I am wrong, when I am proven wrong. Mind you, there are alot of other problems with the Longbow besides the stock, but they are so obvious it seems silly to debate them.

    I love the idea of the Longbow, and really want to see that idea brought to life. I also love the notion of the paintball sniper. Thats right, I said it. The S word. I personally refer to snipers in paintball as stalkers, as I see it as a little more fitting. I just want a great stalker marker that actually works to improve a stalkers game, not make it more challenging. The Longbow specializes in the latter.

    There aint no disclaimer saying a Longbow operator needs to buy a VForce profiler mask to look through a sight mounted on the top picatinny, and there is no disclaimer saying that they will also need to purchase additional sight risers in order to see through a red dot. That seems unfair to me, and I feel very justified in sharing that to others that do not have that information as of yet.

    Our posts are a great way to vent, and problem solve in light of the Longbow debaucle. We have done some serious good here, and I personally feel much more educated as a result of reading peoples opinions here. I think that is the Special Ops gurus were to have read this thread they would realize they cant drop the ball, or people will notice. That does everyone a huge favor in the end.

    Anyways, back to the designing...

  4. #154
    That dogleg stock not only "doglegs" around the head, but also drops down a little, putting the butt of the stock in the proper place it seems. Seems like the best Longbow stock to me. Should have been standard on every one. True about the shooting switch position tho Lonewolf.

    If the stock was lower, and nice and tight, one could rest the stock on the chest, or either shoulder... even pivot the marker on whatever spot on the body, kinda like stock snap shooting. That would be the most useful stock in my opinion.

  5. #155
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    Thanks, I appreciate your compliments! The genuine AGD back bottle adapter really did the trick. Wish they'd made more of those!

    Had to order the CMS Upgrade to mount the Q on the grip frame. It should come standard for what they charge! Even so, it makes the balance almost perfect. Sure beats the weight of four 9v batteries running two motorized gizmos dangled off to one side! (no offense AGD)

    Pro-Team makes a new one: http://www.proteamdirect.com/proteam/bgfolforgrip.html
    Mine is their original Armson folding foregrip.

    Looking forward to seeing what you come up with!

    Quote Originally Posted by famousgamer
    What a great setup Borph. Wow. I never figured you could get so much clearance by mounting the asa at the rear like that and use an air thru. That z frame is nice too. The sight rail is the perfect height, and I bet you cant even feel the Q loader weight with it so central like that. I even like the extended foregrip. Well done.

    I am personally going to be picking up my own marker to start modding soon. I am very close to deciding the initial setup, and wanted to clear everything with you guys first. Ill post later tonight with my wish list.
    Last edited by borph; 01-31-2006 at 11:31 PM. Reason: pic deleted
    -DocJ

    ReTroMag: XValve, ZBody, 12" Lapco Bigshot .697, Extreme Rage Omega body rail, Armson folding foregrip, ProLine Autoresponse (intellifed), Dye Stickies, Adco Hot Shot
    Hopper: 12v VL Revolution (XBoard, Vortex) WarpFeed (Bigcell), ProTeam Pro Feed
    Remote: 3K Flatline, Furon coiled hose, Staubli ProConnect QD w/shut off, Smart Parts gas-thru stock, Back Bottle Adapter, microline, 1+2 made from an Army surplus gas mask bag

  6. #156
    Join Date
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    Clayton, NC
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    I don't necessarily think that raise scope rails are bad thing. I personally like that my scope is 2-3 inches above my barrel. That way I'm not looking over, around or through my barrel when attempting long range shots.

    Scope rails really don't impact the markers ability to be low profile since anything below your eyes is fine. I think the low profile mostly comes from moving away from a traditional hopper to a Warp or Qloader.

    Whats so appealing about this thread are the designs where the Qloader mount is integrated into some sort of sleeve giving the marker a very unified look. The stock options are always going to be subject to player preferences on shooting. I personally will keep my tank on my marker.

    I think it would be great if some of these designs evolved in to real options that people could buy. But to appeal to more players I think some effort should be put on supporting mag owners with power-feed and direct-feed bodies also. The more versatile the add-on is, the more potential users.

    The real negative of the Q/Longbow is the price. Beat that by a substantial margin and you'll see players more willing to use your offerings.

    Anyway, as far as materials, has anyone played with resin casting? It's fairly inexpensives, can be very durable depending on the mixture and could possibly be used for a very quick turn around time on making some of the components discussed here.
    Lvl X TKO Automag PF/HL, Intelliframe, a Simmons 30mm Red Dot and a J&J 12" Ceramic barrel.
    Crossfire 68/4500
    -------------------------------------
    Die Hard Woods Player

  7. #157
    It is interesting you should mention resin casting. This is a company I have sculpted for (I did most of the Demon of Rage, among several other minis on the market), ULTRAFORGE LINK ,and these miniatures were all cast in resin.

    Resin casting is actually quite possible, and is as durable as plastic or metal if done the right way. It would also be pricey, but not overly pricey. I could also hand sculpt the original, as I sculpt often.

    I would suggest getting a pro company to handle the mold making and reproduction (pouring) tho. I can do mold making for miniatures, but for ther bigger stuff there is gear that helps that I dont have. I know lots of people in the industry, and they would be more than willing to help at a price.

    I'll order my marker from agd and my Q Loader soon. After I get these things I will start sculpting. If there were people that wanted to buy these shells to compensate for the cost of making them, it would work out nice. I am not sure about the legalities however, and would have to investigate if this is possible to even market. In regards to most things, you cannot sculpt anything to interact directly with it without having rights. Anyone know anything about this?

    Of course, everyone who has contributed to this post and is interested in a shell, if they get made, would receive them at cost, or wholesale. Cost of materials basicly.

    I will also contact the folks at Q Loader and let them know about the project. Maybe they can throw in a Q Loader at cost to get it going, for the benifit of all?

  8. #158
    Join Date
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    Contacting Q-loader directly is an excellent choice. One of the scenario teams I frequently play with is sponsored by them and the captain has mentioned that Q-loader would like to see a Q specific marker. I think if you were to approach this the right way they may show some serious interest in this. Or it could be my wishful thinking!

    If they were able to offer a sleeve mount similar to this drawing you did:



    That could be very beneficial to both AGD and Q-loader. Something that mounted via slide on or possible screwed to the frame would allow for almost ANY body style. This would make it appeal to pretty much any mag owner.

    When you get your Q-loader, be sure to pick up the Custom Mounting Socket. This will allow you to mount the Q as close to the trigger frame as you like. It also lets you have the feed tube from the Q-loader exit any side you wish.

    **edit**
    It just dawned on me that the above concept AGD/Q-loader marker looks like what could possibly be the next gen FN303.
    Last edited by Severe; 01-27-2006 at 02:12 PM.

  9. #159
    Well, housing the Q Loader to the front via a cool looking/feeling shroud is very doable. The trigger frame and stock would be a little trickier.

    Does the actual trigger connect to the trigger frame which connects to the marker, or simply connect to the marker? I know nothing about the trigger system yet, as I dont have one in front of me yet. I could just cut the carbon fiber grip frame and add to it, but would rather make a single unit that just bolts on like the trigger/grip frame. Maybe a technical drawing would help.

    As far as a Q specific marker, I dont know what other marker would be more Q specific. I will see if the folks at Q dig it. A Q specific marker has to be the Automag. It is simply the best choice for a marker platform, bar none.

  10. #160
    Wow. It really is like an fn303. Riot controllers are just envious of paintballers


  11. #161
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    The trigger is housed in the trigger frame. It's free floating on a single axis with a cross block safetly. The sear is mounted in the rail by either a bushing (classic rail) or sear pin (RT Pro and up rail). The sear contacts the trigger via a sear rod that passes horizontally through the trigger frame and coming out directly behind the trigger/trigger shoe. Hopefully that description will help a little. For a visual representation, check out the exploded diagrams at www.airgun.com in the support section.

    It would be possible to have your stock mount on the existing fiber single-trigger frame by acting like slide on grips and also anchoring to the rail below the valve. Again, resin casting or some sort of vaccuum forming could do this fairly easily I'd imagine.

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by famousgamer
    Does the actual trigger connect to the trigger frame which connects to the marker, or simply connect to the marker? I know nothing about the trigger system yet, as I dont have one in front of me yet. I could just cut the carbon fiber grip frame and add to it, but would rather make a single unit that just bolts on like the trigger/grip frame. Maybe a technical drawing would help.
    The grip frame hinges the trigger, which pushes the trigger rod, which rocks the sear, which releases the bolt and cycles the on/off valve.

    here ya go
    http://www.airgun.com/Images/rtblowup.pdf
    Last edited by borph; 01-27-2006 at 04:35 PM.

  13. #163
    Sweet. As an afterthought I was thinking that making a new grip would probably throw off intelliframe users. Some people would not want to go back to a single trigger. It would be nice to appeal to the broadest range possible.

    Doing the front part is easy. In this drawing it shows a super easy concept for a two part shroud. This could be made of anything, as it does not have anything really mounted to it at all. It kind of floats there. The sight is mounted on an aftermarker automag sight rail (there ae a few to choose from, i like the cool low black one) and there is still room to screw in the foregrip.



    Now, the only issue with this is the foregrip. The Q loader cant be mounted to it, as it is removable. Can the grip be cut down, or is there an easier/cheaper alternative? I guess one could use the special mounting stuff from Q loader, but would that still allow for the foregrip to be installed if one wanted? Any pics of how that Q loader attaches to the marker rail while still allowing the foregrip, while not being directly attached to the foregrip would be nice.

    The rear of the marker will be trickier. I am leaning towards the special ops adapter again, as it would be used with any trigger frame, so long as it was a classic rail. I still dont know if the RT rail can be mounted from. Either way, anyone could buy a classic rail, as they are fairly cheap.

  14. #164
    It would be a real cool thing too if Q loader unveiled a new BLACK Q pod to go with something like this! Man, that would be savage.

  15. #165
    Just as an idea for the stock... what about this?



    By not going air thru, what advantages do we have?

    - You could shoot with either hand, and snapshoot if the stock rested and pivoted on the chest (like speedballers do with just the bottle as a stock).

    -The weight of the tank would also balance out the weight of the Q Loader when it is full of paint, making the trigger frame the balance point.

    - There would be no hose to snag.

    - dont need to buy a remote line, or a vest or pouch to carry the bottle in.

    Cuz really, the stock is kinda exactly where the tank is anyways on most of the drawings. It is fairly optimal placement, and I am not sure if it really needs to be replaced by going remote? Maybe remote is the bomb and it will be way better than a bottle on the marker? I personally have no experience with going remote, so I am not the expert here by far. Any input here would be killer.

  16. #166


    Hey look. Its the quietest marker in the world. Unfortunatley it is also illegal in the US. The good news is that I am in Canada.

    The sediment filter silencer, supposedly, requires no housing. The filter, placed over the end of the barrel, is supposed to suppress most of the "crack" noise from firing. Sediment filters are also really cheap, ranging from 3 to 10 dollars.

    The marker looks pretty deadly, and it would be pretty tricky to get everything really straight. If it did work tho, it would sweetness.

    EDIT: actually, this marker would need a sight riser. If one were to aim high for a long shot, the barrel would start to get in the way, as was mentioned earlier.

  17. #167
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    UC Santa Barbara
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    heh heh, you could used a lapco machine gun shroud.


  18. #168
    Yeah. then one could also say its just a lapco machine gun shroud!

    Well, a lapco machine gun shroud, AND a filter to make sure that no rust or water contaminants make it into the marker barrel. Yeah.. thats it.

  19. #169


    I leant Borph my gun and he hasnt given it back yet.

    Anywho, here is a scale representaion of someone holding a marker design. I can already see that I need that stock length to be adjustable. That sight might also need a riser. Interesting that I am now going back and raising the profile. Ironic.

    Borph. Gimme my marker back now.

  20. #170
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
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    Syracuse
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    Here's my favorite stock - worthy of a look in my opinion. It mounts to the bottomline, and can be turned rightside up or upside down (I prefer it in the confirmation shown):

    They also make them in adjustable lengths:


    Kind of eliminates the need for an adapter. Only problem is it's not an air-thru, but that can be solved by mounting some fittings and macroline to it.

    In my opinion, if you're going to use the tank on the gun, you don't need a stock. Just brace the tank on your shoulder. You only need a stock when running remote.

  21. #171
    Hey look. Its the quietest marker in the world. Unfortunatley it is also illegal in the US. The good news is that I am in Canada.
    Suppressors are not entirely banned in the US, approx. 35 states allow them, as long as you pay he proper taxes and fill out the proper forms.

    I would expect for suppressors to be highly illegal in Canada, considering the draconian gun laws that have been enacted there...

  22. #172
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Daytona Beach, FL
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    58

    sorry I'm so longwinded

    Quote Originally Posted by famousgamer
    As far as a Q specific marker, I dont know what other marker would be more Q specific. I will see if the folks at Q dig it. A Q specific marker has to be the Automag. It is simply the best choice for a marker platform, bar none.
    I agree wholeheartedly, and strongly believe a project like this could breathe new life into AGD, even if it meant teaming up with a competitor. No marker can outshoot the Automag, and no loader can outfeed the Q. This marriage just makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by famousgamer
    Sweet. As an afterthought I was thinking that making a new grip would probably throw off intelliframe users. Some people would not want to go back to a single trigger. It would be nice to appeal to the broadest range possible.
    Bear in mind also that AGD's carbon fiber grip frame is angled slightly more acutely backward than most .45 grips out there. You'd want to make something that'd work equally well with any grip.

    Quote Originally Posted by famousgamer
    Now, the only issue with this is the foregrip. The Q loader cant be mounted to it, as it is removable.
    There are two parts to the foregrip, the foregrip itself
    http://store.airgun.com/index.cfm?fu...&categoryID=91
    and the vertical ASA adapter
    http://store.airgun.com/index.cfm?fu...&categoryID=16

    It'd be easiest to mount the qloader to the vertical adapter using the hardware the comes with it, but then you couldn't use the gas-thru feature of the grip. There is a 90 degree mount in the Q's CMS upgrade kit which could sandwich between the vert ASA and body rail if you had a 1/8" longer screw, but that might not allow enough clearance to screw in the foregrip. The only way to overcome that is to bend the straight adapter at the right length to go there (could be difficult), or else mount their 90 degree onto the barrel instead (caca). Could mounting the Q to the stock be an option?
    http://www.qloader.com/images/aic_pic_players_26.jpg
    Lots of great pics in their players' gallery

    Quote Originally Posted by famousgamer
    I still dont know if the RT rail can be mounted from. Either way, anyone could buy a classic rail, as they are fairly cheap.
    You'd ruin an original RT rail by drilling holes, as it is gas-thru.<br><img src="http://store.airgun.com/images/product/large/lg_442.jpg"><br>However, ULE and Pro rails are not.

    Quote Originally Posted by famousgamer
    By not going air thru, what advantages do we have?

    - You could shoot with either hand, and snapshoot if the stock rested and pivoted on the chest (like speedballers do with just the bottle as a stock).

    -The weight of the tank would also balance out the weight of the Q Loader when it is full of paint, making the trigger frame the balance point.

    - There would be no hose to snag.

    - dont need to buy a remote line, or a vest or pouch to carry the bottle in.

    Cuz really, the stock is kinda exactly where the tank is anyways on most of the drawings. It is fairly optimal placement, and I am not sure if it really needs to be replaced by going remote? Maybe remote is the bomb and it will be way better than a bottle on the marker? I personally have no experience with going remote, so I am not the expert here by far. Any input here would be killer.
    By requiring the 12oz CO2 mounted on the bottomline, you're limiting this upgrade to those who run a Classic valve since ReTro and Xvalve operate only with compressed air or nitrogen. Another thing under rapid fire, your valve WILL FREEZE UP. This is the biggest annoyance by far with CO2, and it is SO WORTH the extra dough not having to worry about shooting too fast! I ran CO2 on-gun for a long time. After purchasing a Flatline 3000, I modified the design of AGD's drop-forward and came up with a longer "raise-rearward" which put the tank in a stock like position for more comfortable shouldering. I used this setup 'til I found my gas-thru stock and back bottle adapter. Scored an old gas mask bag from the Army/Navy surplus store for $20 which fit the 68ci tank and two reload pods perfectly, so I stuck with it ever since. Running remote saves SO much weight, my arm NEVER gets tired from carrying it anymore. The coiled hose stays close enough to my body it's never snagged on anything.

    It all depends on your personal preference and style of play. Try both and see what works best for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by famousgamer
    actually, this marker would need a sight riser. If one were to aim high for a long shot, the barrel would start to get in the way, as was mentioned earlier.
    If you have to aim THAT high for a long shot, you should get closer before giving away your position. Chances are your paintball will have decelerated enough to bounce off rather than break on target.

    Quote Originally Posted by famousgamer
    I leant Borph my gun and he hasnt given it back yet.

    Anywho, here is a scale representaion of someone holding a marker design. I can already see that I need that stock length to be adjustable. That sight might also need a riser. Interesting that I am now going back and raising the profile. Ironic.

    Borph. Gimme my marker back now.
    Haha, I'm holding it for ransom! I REALLY like your stock design in that picture much more than previous ones. Good for righties or lefties, and making the length adjustable would be perfect! The ability to rotate the butt would be nice too. Mine is about 20 degrees to the left so it makes a good fit between the shoulder and pectoral muscles.
    Last edited by borph; 01-28-2006 at 03:46 PM.

  23. #173
    Ugh. Freezing valves! Hmmm, i think I may want to go gas thru/compressed air after all.

    I suppose it really wouldnt be a genuine AGD is is was'nt on Air, as certain upgrades and markers simply dont work with Co2, making it a real hinderance to many players. Good points Borph. If we were going back to gas thru, then we would be going back to easy-to-mill stock adapters, or bottomline mounted stocks like the ones Gatorade pointed out.

    AT least we can drill into the classic and ULE rails. That is good news. To bad about the gas thru RT rail. If an RT custom owner had to buy a simple rail to facilitate the stock adapter/shrouds, I wouldnt mind so much. Fairly cheap upgrade.

    If we are using an air thru stock in the end, it wouldnt matter so much if we could use the air thru feature of the foregrip, by mounting the Qloader to it. I do like the fact that the grip part would be removable. That would give the marker a very rifle like feel when wanted.

    I kind of look at it this way. The marker either 1: has a retractable stock and foregrip combo option for getting in tight when needed, or 2: is a small compact rifle-like configuration. In woodsball do we really need that get-in0tight aspect? Should we be focusing on a more carbine type weapon? If so, we could loose the foregrip alltogether and move the Q loader housing as close to the triggerframe as possible.

  24. #174
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
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    Just a quick heads up. Only the original RT's that use the Banjo-bolt have internal gas lines. The RT Pro, and newer rails should be fine.

  25. #175
    Are you sure? If that is the case, I would get a ULE custom and drill thru the rail for the stock adapter. the ULE warp right body would be perfect with the Q Loader, and as a starting point for the woods project marker.

    The reason I am so interested is because I am buying my first AGD marker soon to start this woods project, and am torn between upgrading a classic, or getting a fairly stock ULE custom. The rail drilling thing is really the clincher. If I could drill in that rail, Id get the ULE custom.

  26. #176
    Join Date
    May 2005
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    Massachusetts
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    Good ideas, guys, there's a lot of great looking and comfortable setups here. The biggest problem that I see with the way you're going about designing these is that you're doing it all in a vacuum. What I mean is that while you guys are coming up with some great designs and they look great with someone standing there aiming the marker around, you've got to consider where they'll be used and how they'll work for that setting. Longer, flatter markers/guns are great for long-range engagements and crawling through bush, and short, tall setups excel at close-range combat with tight bunkers. ...Or did you guys already consider all of that in your designs and just not mention it here?

    Keep it up, though, that's some badass gear.

  27. #177


    Here is a Borphed/MoeMaged automag shroud. Its a long marker, but should be as balanced as Borphs in the lower part of the picture. The frame/shroud could even be skeletonized to provide perfect balance with a full hopper of paint on board.

    This configuration wins the balance game, hands down. Its profile is also quite low, dispite the Q on the bottom. The marker setup I did was with a warp left frame. Prolly ULE. This lowers the top, so one could simply use a mag sight rail. A riser could be used if on a Tac One, or vert feed ULE body, etc. and would be fed to the top like on borphs.

    This would have to be redesigned for intelliframe users, but not by much I dont think.

    Milling this thing would be a cinch, as it is pretty much 2D milling for the most part. The thing would have to be milled of metal, not cast in resin. I could make resin foregrips tho.

    What are the thoughts on this config?
    Last edited by famousgamer; 01-29-2006 at 05:51 AM.

  28. #178


    EDIT: here is one with a rifle foregrip beyond the vert foregrip

    Last edited by famousgamer; 01-29-2006 at 05:25 AM.

  29. #179
    WOW theres alot of great ideas in here! Its hard to pick a favorite.

  30. #180
    i really love famous last ones simple and cool i would buy it if it werent too expensive and made out of aluminum so it wouldnt wiegh a ton

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