If ION's were SUPER cheap how would that change things?

[Rick-USA]

Smart Parts did a price drop on every marker they make on April 1. It wasn't just the Ion that dropped they all did.

The Ion has changed the paintball world already. If it were to drop in price even more it would move more of them out to the public. I'm more than slightly biased towards the Ion since I've owned one for over a year now and have had 0 problems out of it. I usually tear down 5-6 a day on a busy weekend at the field and replace the rear hose when it starts leaking. It's not a matter of if it will, it's a matter of when it will. I don't find the Ion any more difficult to tear down than any of the clamshell Timmy's running around out there.

As far as a player needing to learn skills before they move up in the marker capabilities that's another of the long list of traditions that have been thrown out the window. These days it's very common to see first time players with mid-high level markers simply because they have read about them and have access to Mom's gold card. I see it every weekend.

Smart Pars is very rigid when it comes to MAP pricing and enforcing the policy. That's why when the Ion went on sale at walmart.com for less than MAP SP suddenly called up the middle man in the transaction and put a quick halt to it. It was probably on the website for less than a week with a price less than MAP. Even though it wasn't Walmart who was actually selling the marker it does show the influence SP has over it's dealers when it comes to MAP.

Finally what's wrong with a "plastic" marker? It's not like the whole thing is made out of plastic. It's just a shell over the working parts which makes it very easy and inexpensive to replace should some major damage happen to it. What happens when you slide into a bunker with an aluminium marker and it happens to slide on the ground and finds a rock? A nasty scratch that is pretty muh there forever unless you want to replace the whole thing. Glock, Sig, and Taurus haven't found any reason to not build real firearms out of polymers. They can't be that bad.

[Pump Scout]

Why sell a $300-$400 gun for $200, it only cuts back the money you and your stores make.

I suspect this is backwards from what the situation really is. I think what SP has is a $75-$100 gun that they had been selling at $300+, and now brought down to $200.

As for what it will do, I think it's going to drive down the price of blowbacks. It's going to push paint consumption up, but I don't think paint prices will shift at all. It will boost sales of powered hoppers, especially if the rental market starts seeing the Ion as a serious option. Those will likely be the fields already running their rentals on HPA. I think that if SP doesn't come out with rental-color-only shells, they're out of their minds. I think it's going to further push the rec game toward what the tournament scene has on a regular basis, and the game will yet again become more unfriendly and attitude-filled.

With weather and money being a consideration here, I finally made it out to a field for the first time this year last weekend. It was to a field that historically has seen mostly DYE/Proto guns for high-end, serious shooters. The Ions now outnumber the others out there. They seem to have their share of issues, though. Come to think of it, the only guns I saw with problems at all during the day were Ions. Not sure if that indicative of their quality (I have thoughts on that...), but it was, to me, a look at what to expect.

[BigEvil]

It's hard to say that selling Ions at 225 (and all other items at MSRP) is designed to take sales away from any company selling them for 200.

If an online store is selling them for $200, then what is a local proshop going to sell it for? What is the markup on a $200 retail paintball gun?

[stop whining buy a mag]

Most of the opinions given so far are correct. It is already hurting the blowback line of markers and with another price drop, I'm sure Kingman would start to hurt. Whether or not it would impact Tippmann as much is debatable. Tippmanns are known for reliability, IONS are not. The reason for that being, you can do whatever you want to a Tippmann and it will still work. The ION demands the upkeep of a high end gun. Not to mention the undisputable lack of quality control that Smart Parts has.

I doubt these will ever become a large percentage of the rentals at fields throughout the world for one reason. They are a PITA to disassemble. I occasionally get kids at the field that want me to clean their ION for them because they saw me take out the bolt on my DM6 and relube it. If the ION was that easy I'd say sure, but it takes an experienced person a good 10-20 minutes to disassemble, clean and reassemble one of these. Not to mention all the batteries a field would go through.

Around here, the ION has started to plateau. I see usually 10 of them at the field, but they aren't selling as great as they were before. The price drop has given some people a little motivation to buy one as a backup though. SP probably has something they are about to drop on the paintball market that will in some way compete with the ION.

The ION is the biggest thing in paintball in the past several years. It can almost be compared to the switch from pump to semi. Now the switch is from little kids with mech Spyders to kids with fast guns and they have no clue how to change it out of rebound mode. Thankfully, AGD is such a niche market that this has little effect. People that purchase from AGD are usually looking for quality not plastic.

[Rick-USA]

Brick store or online store?

National has for years now had an online store under the name www.888paintball.com and at least one other I can't think of the name of right now. If they are selling at MSRP there then other websites and brick stores are selling above.

[m-a-r-k-7]

I think it would put a serious dent in spyder and phirana sales, if the ion was lowered to $100-$150. Tippmann would be fine, because they market toward woodsball and scenario. Spyders and Phiranas are marketed mainly for speedball. Given the choice of a sypder electra for $150, or an ion for $150 I'd go with the ion every time. Spyders are great guns, but I feel that ions are just a step above (not a large one mind you).

[fire1811]

The same reason we and others spend considerably more money on ule mags and mech cockers and such with no ramping and no eyes - we like them, and we appreciate the quality over faster plastic guns

edit: but yes I do see your point as it pertains to the average kid just getting into the game

maybe you should do research before you post. The ION is not plastic.

[slateman]

I suspect this is backwards from what the situation really is. I think what SP has is a $75-$100 gun that they had been selling at $300+, and now brought down to $200.

Bingo.

Well, if the Ion were cheaper I dont' think it would have a dramatic effect, but it would have a noticeable. The Ion still needs a motorized hopper and a compressed air tank, both of which inccur a substantial cost.

What it may do, as previously mentioned, is force the blowbacks and other CO2 guns to reduce their prices. This would, naturally, allow more people to play paintball on a regular basis.

But there is still the cost of paint, which, IMO, would be more prohibitive factor for those who purchase an Ion. Lets face it, the Ion can lay paint down. Meaning that people are going to be buying a case instead of a 500 round bag like they would with an entry level Tippmann. Now, if Smart Parts can figure out to make paintballs "way cheaper" that would do more to affect paintball then making Ions "way cheaper"

[fire1811]

IMO they should have them for sale in walmart. That would greatly increase there sales

[Aeronautica86]

maybe you should do research before you post. The ION is not plastic.

the body (cover) is and being plastic it can break; obviously no one here thinks that the Ion is 100% pastic - I would expect most everyone to realize that

[Lohman446]

They are slowly making there way into the rental market and making a two tier rental market. For instance normal marker rental (Piranha, Tippman, whatever), non electronic hopper etc may rent for $10 where the Ion with a cheaper (think Ricochet) hopper may go for twice that. And many people will pay it. How they will fair long term I have no idea, I think if it was me doing it I would find a way to make that bolt removeable without removing the body (be it by customizing the plastic body or by buying aftermarket ones).

[fire1811]

the body is and being plastic it can break

that is just a shell. Its aluminum under it. Honestly I have had more problems with my mag then I my ION.

Its funny that people on AO get mad when others bash mags yet they are usually the first to bash IONS. ???

[Aeronautica86]

I couldn't care less about anyone bashing the guns I use, but that isn't the issue

My point is that the body is an integral part of the Ion - I've never seen one on the field with the body cover off. I just prefer a gun without something breakable on the outside - try breaking the body of a Spyder - it won't be easy. Of course I haven't tried to break the shell on a Ion, but I woud imagine it would be easier to do than with a marker with an all metal body. True, if you break the shell on the Ion it doesn't mean that the marker is completely screwed, but 99% of the people would want to replace it immediately thus sucking more money out of their wallets.

[fire1811]

Of course I haven't tried to break the shell on a Ion, but I woud imagine it would be easier to do than with a marker with an all metal body. True, if you break the shell on the Ion it doesn't mean that the marker is completely screwed, but 99% of the people would want to replace it immediately thus sucking more money out of their
wallets.

You have never tried to but yet you say its going to break? mmmmkkk

Yeah it would suck I guess if for whatever reason you in some way broke your body. But I you can replace an ION shell for $15 ver $100+ other guns

[Dark Frost17]

i think it would make a pretty decent impact on some fields....but do you think woods ball and speed ball would be split further apart?... ....i see enough ions to make my head explode at some of the fields i have been to....if the price came lower i would buy 1 only to tinker with it.... .....

[sanity]

While I agree that it will affect lower end markets like Kingman, if people thought for a little bit it wouldn't have all that much of an effect. All the other equipment needed to play pb will cost almost as much if not more than an ion. Additionally, 3 days of play (at field paint prices) is equal to the cost of an ion. If you want to play paintball with any sort of regularity your marker is going to be outstripped by your other expenses pretty quickly - even if its a higher priced gun than an ion!



PS- Read as: My justification for spending money on markers.

[NukeGoose]

I havent seen a major manufacturer that competes directly with their dealers. Most, if all, sell their stuff at MSRP in their store.

Do you have an example?

888

the body (cover) is and being plastic it can break

Have you never seen metal deform? I have never - ever - seen an Ion where the plastic body was the cause of any problem. Can you link me to an example? Try breaking an Ion body while it's on the gun during sutuations normally encountered during game play (i.e. try bashing it on a rock or sliding it across a rock), and tell me if you can get an Ion to the point of breakage before any metal bodied gun would become unusable. And finally as fire1811 mentioned consider the cost of replacing an ion body against the cost of replacing a metal body.

[68magOwner]

Its funny that people on AO get mad when others bash mags yet they are usually the first to bash IONS. ???

i too had more issues with my mag than i have ever had with any other marker (leaky bolt, chopping, generaly poor performance)
then agan, i only owned really old mags, I have played with my buddes tac one and i love that thing to death, and it never has any issues.

[SpecialBlend2786]

I was unaware that 888 was a manufacturer. Just a online retailer. I have never seen the 888 mfr. product line(markers, masks, etc).

Are they new?

888 = National I believe

[mobsterboy]

It does bug me that every 12 year old will be able to shoot 15bps at once, I think that's a problem that is deeper than just the Ion.
Thanks
Sam Smock
www.vaporworks.net

No. Please tell me you aren't trying to represent Vaporworks here and say a statement like that. Stock ion boards are capped at 16 to 17(decimal difference), and they don't come stock with ramping. They come stock with bounce activation, and they have a way to set it to 15 capped, but its still not cfoa psp or any other ramping legal. And if we arent talking about bounce here, what are the odds the 12 years olds are really gonna read the manual enough to manipulate the board to full auto, which i wasnt aware it had.


Tom, to answer your question: It shouldnt but it does. It makes the mass AGG kiddie population think that if the ion can shoot just as fast as the shocker, impulse, timmy, freestyle, ecocker...why get any other one? Its also customizable (another agg thing. Its like the cockers were, with all the bells and whistles. You can make it what you want... )
so by the less demand, more start to break down and sell for less. So you have timmys, usually going for 800 are now 450. You have dm's, usually going for 900 are now 400 to 500. Then a mass panic hits and everyone wants to dump their guns, until the market is so saturated that you have to sell lower than anyone else in order to sell at all. Then the market starts balancing out. It seems stable, then ions drop price again, and guns are at an alltime low once again

[Aeronautica86]

888



Have you never seen metal deform? I have never - ever - seen an Ion where the plastic body was the cause of any problem. Can you link me to an example? Try breaking an Ion body while it's on the gun during sutuations normally encountered during game play (i.e. try bashing it on a rock or sliding it across a rock), and tell me if you can get an Ion to the point of breakage before any metal bodied gun would become unusable. And finally as fire1811 mentioned consider the cost of replacing an ion body against the cost of replacing a metal body.

I've broken metal pieces (barrels and gun bodies) on the paintball field, so I know that it is possible to get into situations where extreme force is being applied to parts of a marker. I also know that plastic is easier to break than metal. Therefore if I have broken metal parts on the field, I have to assume that I would have broken plastic parts in those same situations, and most likely more often. Because i have broken metal parts on the field, I would assume that any plastic parts would be broken more often because situations where a great enough force is applied to break plastic should occur at higher frequency than situations where enough force is applied to break metal pieces.

And yes, I can say with 100% certainty that a certain plastic object is quite breakable without ever breaking it because I have broken plastic before - example, without ever seeing your wooden pencil of brand X, I know I can snap it in half because I have broken a wooden pencil of brand Y before and know that all wood pencils are created essentially equal, so saying that I can't have knowledge of something I have never seen is not a valid argument.

back to your regularly scheduled programming....

[thefool]

so by the less demand, more start to break down and sell for less. So you have timmys, usually going for 800 are now 450. You have dm's, usually going for 900 are now 400 to 500. Then a mass panic hits and everyone wants to dump their guns, until the market is so saturated that you have to sell lower than anyone else in order to sell at all. Then the market starts balancing out. It seems stable, then ions drop price again, and guns are at an alltime low once again

Thats a very pessimistic view
the way i see it a 100 ion would do several things
it would like you said kill all resale value for a bit
it would probably drive down on kingman and the like
it would lower the cost of paint becasue manufacturures would be able to order lager batchs and make less profit per paintball to make more overall
Yet it still needs hpa/as co2 and a fast hopper so a $100 ion would really be a $250-$300 packageto parents so it wouldnt exacly be entry levle. That or people will run it with co2 and in all likelyhood run into all sorts of probems.

Also, a piont that hasnt been clearly stated, unless the price drop is huge then the market will at some piont slow down almost to a platue beachsue it will be over saturated with ions, which will eventually be discontunied leaving a lot of ions out there just like some spyders. And sp will release something new. Unless the price drop is huge the more expensive market imo wont be extreamly impacted becasue many of its target audience wither want something more prestigios or something of better looks/quality and in all liklyhood already own an ion

i think i started rambling but thats what i say

[TheAngryDrunkenRussian]

Swamp Monster will apear and eat every pig known to man!!!!






Yeha I wasted ............ again

[Aeronautica86]

Swamp Monster will apear and eat every pig known to man!!!!






Yeha I wasted ............ again

even more worthless than the last few posts of mine in this thread

[Tao]

AO,

So if the ION were way cheaper than it is even now how would that affect the paintball world?

AGD

How would the paintball world change? Well not to be a pessimist but I imagine we would have the Walmarts and other centres carying them. that would mean that it would be the punks gun of choice. Most vandalism would result from Ions rather than the usual Walmart speacials.

Besides I would be wary of it even more if it were cheaper. It already is a plastic gun.

I think the question to ask is what if Automags were cheaper? Noobs of today only know Timmy, Ion, Angel (even though they can't aford them) and Tippman. Granted it may not be conceivable to make the automag cheaper but if AGD came up with something to flood the market it would be nice.

[heres where the real hijack begins lol]

The emag is a very nic gun and well built but what if we took back the features that really aren't needed but keep the gun better than the ion?

Take out the manual override, take out the big battery now that it doesn't need that solenoid, take out the level 10...(i assume that eyes are cheaper than everything needed for the level 10???)

Sight rail....gone

stock barrel...optional (most people buy barrel kits right away)

How much would that save? I don't really know of course. Market it like the RT custom. I bet a cut down emag could go for $500 new.

I don't mean to know all of the features on the emag Tom, I love them all, but people are pretty short sighted when it goes to a paintball marker:

Does it look cool/sex/agg/etc

how fast CAN it shoot (a very meaningless feature which usually makes use of the magical marker fairies)

How low of a pressure can it use (wow who cares)

How much$$$$

To reinforce the point of the ahemm ignorance of most people out there they all have back up guns if their main one goes down...this is laughable when I have mechanical overide BUILT IN!!!! :P let alone a gun which to this day has never GONE DOWN!!!

[punkncat]

I'm going to go on a limb and explore another line of thought. Most of the people playing paintball are young, doing so on a limited budget, and playing renegade ball. I think we can all agree on that to one degree or another.

So you take the average broke kid paintball player. You put a really cheap Ion in his hands and set him loose on the field. His allowance(or whatever) is enough for him to afford very little by way of paint and field fees. So given that, once he has purchased his Ion, he has to start thinking about things like HPA tanks and getting them filled. How about a loader faster than the shaker or barely better he already has? Ok so now that he has begged this rather substantial money difference out of someone....vs the shaker and a CO2 tank....hes gotta find somewhere to play.... As we all know the HPA fill at the local pro shop won't last long in the back yard, and that is sure going to suck. And if you can barely afford paint, a few scubas are pretty much out of the question....Lets not forget that if buddy does decide to use CO2 all the issues that will create....

So our newbie Ion owner shows up at the local pay field.
Well after paying field fees, buddy had even less money for paint, and has a marker that will eat it up considerably faster. So in no time his game is over and he's broke. Well either buddy is going to quit, or if he is smart will remember how cost effective and trouble free it was to play with the tippy in the backyard with CO2.

I can't see the price of an Ion affecting paintball much where the majority of paintball games are really going on. It will seem like a visible change to folks who regular the local pay fields, and will kill resale even more than it already has, but I think thats it.

[thefool]

so now we have to do some analisis to seewheather most people would try to save up more money on for piant or just quit, bucasue you point out that it might accually decrease the populatirty of pb

[b e n]

I think if IONs were cheaper all fields would have to hire a Ion serviceing staff because all the noobs will break then in one way or another.

[onedude36]

It may soon become the only guy you can buy, use, and lose all in the same day and not care. Disposable paintball guns.

[peewee]

I think that if they lowered the price on the Ion even lower you would see companies like Kingman & Tippmann produce markers with expanded abilities so that they could compete.