If ION's were SUPER cheap how would that change things?

[shorty24]

Before I take a serious stance in this discussion, I'd like to honestly know how much it costs to produce each marker (e.g. Ion/Spyder/Tippy/whatever). If it costs only, say $80 to produce one marker, and all the rest is profit, all the Ion really is doing is cutting some of that profit. Now granted, other pb companies are going to take a hit on this, but wouldn't we agree that it would provide incentive to produce/release better or more appealing products at lower cost? Appealing products = large sales = regain profit. All that results from the Ion then is consumer benefit, in this manner of thinking.

/or maybe I'm just way off, but that's my OPINION

[IronCore]

I think the average person will play more because they can compete with the higher end markers.

So the following would happen (as I see it in my crystal ball):
-Seconds paintballs and zap's spank will have a record sale this year
-Bring your own paint fields will have more attendance
-More people will join tournaments
-15 bps will be mandatory
-High end markers sales will be hurt more than spiders and tippmans
-Body armor and cups will be sold in record number
-AGD will manufacture paintball that is perfectly round and flies straight at $10 a case

[NukeGoose]

Even if National owns 888, that still wouldnt make 888 a mfr.

Yes, I realize that. However, 888 is run by NPS. You can call it whatever you want but National owns a retail outlet (888) designed to compete directly with their distributors. I can open up a store called "Kevin's Paintball Outlet" even though my name isn't Kevin. The name isn't important. It doesn't matter if it's called 888 or The NPS Outlet. It does the same thing.

I've broken metal pieces (barrels and gun bodies) on the paintball field, so I know that it is possible to get into situations where extreme force is being applied to parts of a marker. I also know that plastic is easier to break than metal. Therefore if I have broken metal parts on the field, I have to assume that I would have broken plastic parts in those same situations, and most likely more often. Because i have broken metal parts on the field, I would assume that any plastic parts would be broken more often because situations where a great enough force is applied to break plastic should occur at higher frequency than situations where enough force is applied to break metal pieces.

And yes, I can say with 100% certainty that a certain plastic object is quite breakable without ever breaking it because I have broken plastic before - example, without ever seeing your wooden pencil of brand X, I know I can snap it in half because I have broken a wooden pencil of brand Y before and know that all wood pencils are created essentially equal, so saying that I can't have knowledge of something I have never seen is not a valid argument.

back to your regularly scheduled programming....

The fact that you've seen metal parts break on the paintball field break is indeed irrelevant. Can you show me a case where the plastic Ion body has caused a single problem? Plastic tends to break suddenly whereas metal tends to deform. And in this case, the Ion body is a plastic shell around a metal cylinder, which will prevent the Ion body from snapping like an exposed piece of plastic (say, a barrel) would. The Ion body is not a hollow tube of plastic while in use, it's a metal-filled tube of plastic. If you can break a plastic Ion body while it's on the Ion during any situation that might be encountered during play - where a metal body wouldn't have bent - I'll be very surprised.

[MoeMag]

From the beginning I was a fan of the ION… but after being taken over by the noob kiddies it has taken me a while to really respect it. Yeah it is a tupperwear death cannon, but what other marker can you trash the hell out of, then go to the shop and have me put a new body that is a cooler more “agg” color like pink … none. A new Empire B2, HPA tank, and a virtue board… and that little stock ION is one fast little tourney grade pop gun. I was considering this set up a few days ago but it lost to a fully upped DM6 for some reason.

Look at this thread; in one day this thread has exploded into 4 pages, the ION definitely has the paintball industry on its knees. Cocker had tried to compete with them, but it obviously hasn’t worked based on how many of those new ones I see in the shop. The only thing left for SP to do is market it in a package with tank, hopper, and mask at wal-mart.

Don’t think that the fact that they don’t like to drink co2 is going to stop them… I sell new 47/3000 air tanks for $80. I explain that the air is cheaper in the long run in regards to fill price and gun maintenance and they will 9 times out of 10 take my advice and spring for the air over the $40 20oz CO2, then half of those will go ahead and get a tank that costs as much as the gun itself!

It is going to be hard for another manufacturer to make something better for the price.

[Lohman446]

Anyone ever consider the possibility that it is cheaper to produce an Ion than say a Spyder?

[cpt]

Well, I was a magger for 5 years and then traded a mag for an Ion. Just got my second one. Got both used fully upped and selling off some parts they had in the deal have about $130 in each one. All they need is a trigger, feedneck and ASA. And you don't really need that. A pain in the a** to take apart but I can do it in 2 minutes. Very reliable, light and efficent. I've played with everyting and these are as good as any high end marker there is. I know I will get flamsd for that but who can pull 17 bps anyhow? Downside? Everyone has them. When I have my mag out people oh and ah and what's that. But I am a function over form guy and don't have to have fancy milling and a matching outfit to play. So, what changes? Bk4 Pds for $175 and couldn't sell it, Angel Ir3 for $250? New Nerve's for $475? Pricing has gone down so much the past 6 months I drool when looking thru the for sale section. Butttttttt. I still pull the Rt out and like to kick a** once in a while.

[sbpyro]

What happens when you slide into a bunker with an aluminium marker and it happens to slide on the ground and finds a rock? A nasty scratch that is pretty muh there forever unless you want to replace the whole thing.

I could have sworn that there was a post where someone diving into a bunker and the ion took a digger and the aluminum frame had a nasty bend in it. For me the normal wear and tear on a gun doesn't bother me. BUt on the occassion that I take a header I'd like to believe that I can protect myself prior to protecting my gun. (Of course I have also tossed my entier setup trying to lighten to get the flag back to my base but that is besides the point.)

[Ydna]

The real cost determing factor in the price of a marker isn't the raw materials that go into it. It's the cost to pay the people to work the machines, cost to pay the engineering staff, cost to pay the power bill on the building, etc etc.

It could be $40 to produce an marker out of the raw materials alone, but if the manufacturing facilities, fixtures, molds, and other items cost 500 thousand dollars in the first place, you won't find yourself charging just $45 for your new marker.

In Smart Parts case they have a few other markers that can help take care of some of those issues, so it can't even be easily quantified even if you have all the information.

[Soopa Villain17]

i think it would be good. ive had 2 ions and they were decent, especialy for the price. smart parts still sucks as a company though

[Pump Scout]

I could have sworn that there was a post where someone diving into a bunker and the ion took a digger and the aluminum frame had a nasty bend in it.

Might that be this?


One thing is for absolute certain with the Ion... it's the Stingray of today. Remember when some of the higher-end Spyders (at the time, like the Shutter) were over $300? Stingray came out at $199, then bumped down to $100. Was it as well built as the guns it wound up competing against? Hell no. Did it cause a shift in the market? Absolutely. Does anyone really remember that 8-9 years later, other than old farts with four boxes of old paintball magazines in their basement? Not really. I'd bet there's a bunch of kids playing today that don't even know what a Stingray is!

[Arstron]

For those that are concerned walmart will start carring the ion...

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...uct_id=4328440

[FSU_Paintball]

I think there might be something to the injury statement Lohman made.

Aside from that, it would allow players to shoot a gun on about the same level as advanced players very cheaply, which means everyone would have one.

But I really don't think it would change a whole lot. The Ion is already $200, meaning anyone who wants an electro and will pick up Paintball as even a somewhat regular hobby will probably have one very shortly.

Here's the rub: fast guns can be had for 70% cheaper than they could two years ago, but paint has not changed significantly in price. There may be a 10% difference in paint prices in the last couple of years. No matter how cheap the gun is, you're still going to be dropping a bundle on paint. And players still won't be able to afford to shoot more paint than if they'd spent $200 on a Spyder instead of an Ion.

Anyways, if you want to really be ripping on an Ion, you need to drop about $300 more for an HPA tank and a fast hopper. So what would really change? Not much. People won't be able to shoot 15BPS streams for $200. I think the balance of players who shoot lots vs those who don't would stay relatively similar to where it is today, and many of the newer ones who DO shoot faster won't be on the field as long because they can't afford to pay for that ROF all day.

Of course, this is all just conjecture.

[cledford]

I'm not sure the long term impact of the Ion - I'm beyond trying to figure out industry trends any longer – but I will say this, the Ion is the first paintball marker in a while I've actually been excited about. It pains me, as I can’t stand SP and haven’t quite yet decided whether or not to break my unofficial boycott with them – but I can say had another company come out with the Ion I would have already bought one. My rational is:

1. Given the inherent inaccuracy of ALL paintball markers (based on the flawed projectile) I don’t think that there is as much difference between $200 dollar ions and $1500 dollar DMs as the purchasers of the latter would like to believe. Sure, the DM shoots slightly faster out of the box, but that still isn’t fast enough for most – so considering board upgrades you’re now looking at #300 vs. $1600 and guess what? They now shoot equally as fast (or close enough that only electronic testing equipment can tell the difference) and otherwise are equal, except that one is MUCH cheaper (over $1200 dollars) and possible more efficient out of the box. A fully upgraded Ion is still half or more than the price of the “high end marker” and that is for a full blown custom build – frame, body, cocker threaded breach, now board, reg and QEVs. At that point you’ll have prove to me that the Ion and the DM or Ego or whatever are not on the same level – because I’ll expect that even if they aren’t, only equipment could prove the differences.

2. I haven’t ever bought a marker I didn’t upgrade to the hilt – I enjoy it, working on the markers at home is as fun for me as playing with them on the weekend. The classic mag that AGD came with a few years back was perfect; you could buy the incomplete gun, but save money by not getting the parts that were going to wind up in the trash – then upgrade to your hearts content. The Ion is so cheap this isn’t even a consideration any more. You can buy one, upgrade and change it as much as you choose (tons of new stuff seems to be emerging daily for the marker) and in my mind, if you upgrade EVERYTHING have a marker as nice (or nicer) that the $1000 dollar plus markers, be their equivalent in performance and still come in $300 to $500 cheaper – AND – have essentially 2 guns at that point!

AGD, I once used a motorcycle analogy in a conversation with you compare/contrast the cocker/mag relationship. To use another, the Ion seems to be the SV650 of the motorcycle world. Sure there are GP racers out there with $100K plus bikes, but to be competitive in 99% of the rest of the venues of the world the $6500 can be upgraded with another 10k and be everything everyone else needs. Furthermore, you could likely put the non-GP racer on the GP bike and the GP pro on the upgraded SV and the pro would likely win every time.

I wish a different company had come out with the marker, but otherwise I think it is an exciting product and holds a lot of potential. I wouldn’t be surprised if SP killed it to avoid competing with their “high end” markers.

-Calvin

[RapidTransit]

Well to answer the original question since they are cheap right now, I'm already trying to make a electro pneumatic frame. When I ore apart the Ion I was shocked at how awful the build quality is of these things.

[Tao]

For those that are concerned walmart will start carring the ion...

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...uct_id=4328440

Lol I knew it would happen. There goes the neighbourhood literally. I bet this will end up being the vandals gun of choice.

[Arstron]

So TK, what was the original reason for this thread anyway? Are emag prices going to drop to compete with IONs?

/me quits dreaming

[SpitFire1299]

So TK, what was the original reason for this thread anyway? Are emag prices going to drop to compete with IONs?

/me quits dreaming

I wonder the same thing.. Is AGD making a new "more affordable" gun!???

/also quits dreaming because i know im not going to get a hint of an answer

[RRfireblade]

1) In my area IONS are rentals at all the local feilds...can't get much cheaper than that. Field owners love them cause they dump mass amounts of paint and are cheap to buy and cheaper/easy to fix and the kids love 'em cause.....well , they dump mass amounts of paint and the don;t have to fix them.

2) NPS's online retail outlet most certainly competes with the Dealers and other online retailers that NPS sells NPS mfg and distributed products to , not sure how that can be made any clearer.

They run sales, close outs and sell products regularly priced at under MSRP. Half the product lines over the years that NPS has sold and distributed ARE NPS made or aquired products sold under a variety of brand designations.

[CoolHand]

1) In my area IONS are rentals at all the local feilds...can't get much cheaper than that. Field owners love them cause they dump mass amounts of paint and are cheap to buy and cheaper/easy to fix and the kids love 'em cause.....well , they dump mass amounts of paint and the don;t have to fix them.

2) NPS's online retail outlet most certainly competes with the Dealers and other online retailers that NPS sells NPS mfg and distributed products to , not sure how that can be made any clearer.

They run sales, close outs and sell products regularly priced at under MSRP. Half the product lines over the years that NPS has sold and distributed ARE NPS made or aquired products sold under a variety of brand designations.

Indeed. NPS = ICD = Bob Long = Empire = 32 Deg = Psychoballistics = Icon = Rebel = What's left of KAPP = 888paintball = 800paintball = several other online stores. NPS is like the Wal-Mart of paintball, but in a mostly good way.

I am an NPS dealer, and I have many times bought something from 888 because I found it to be cheaper there than my "dealer" price was.

That said, they have gotten better. All the Bob Long, ICD, and Smart Parts markers are now sold at MAP or above to the general public.

Every once in a while, a promotion will pop up that is under my regular dealer price, but when I check into it, they are running a concurrent discount for the dealers to keep or margin the same while the stuff is on sale.

Margins are damned close on basically anything from NPS though. That's one thing you really have to give to SP, is that they take care of their dealers. I've had nothing but good dealings with them since I set up an account two or three years ago. They take good care of us, and they rabidly protect MAP online, something that other places have long lacked but are catching up on.

Anyway, I like the ION. Taken for what it is, it's a fine marker for a good price. It is not the end of PB as we know it, nor is it the beginning of some sort of "noob" influx. it's just a good performer for a good price.

I believe that the uber-low resale market is due mostly to market saturation rather than the ION itself, since the decline began long before the ION came out. You can't sell a gozillion new uber-markers a year to a population that is the same size or shrinking without the worth of the older markers tanking. That's just the way it is.

[sniperxix]

They require AS CO2, which places like Dicks and Walmart do not sell.

I meant mass market like Wal-mart guns; anyone can pick up a brass eagle from walmart, but you still have to go to a proshop or the like for an Ion.

ACtually now Walmart IS carrying the ION! I spoke to my local PB shop and they are furious. Walmart is selling the ION for only $10 above the wholesale cost Smartparts is charging them.
Soon everyone will have one for the low price of $118.88, and that's before Walmart issues the Price cut gimick!

[CoolHand]

ACtually now Walmart IS carrying the ION! I spoke to my local PB shop and they are furious. Walmart is selling the ION for only $10 above the wholesale cost Smartparts is charging them.
Soon everyone will have one for the low price of $118.88, and that's before Walmart issues the Price cut gimick!

Wal-Mart.com has them at $284.95.

BTW, $118.88 is WAY below wholesale, even at the 50+ piece price.

I think the guy is lying to you. . . . . . . . . . .

[geekwarrior]

ACtually now Walmart IS carrying the ION! I spoke to my local PB shop and they are furious. Walmart is selling the ION for only $10 above the wholesale cost Smartparts is charging them.
Soon everyone will have one for the low price of $118.88, and that's before Walmart issues the Price cut gimick!

which Walmart is that...for that price I would buy one.

[REDRT]

AO,

So if the ION were way cheaper than it is even now how would that affect the paintball world?

AGD

Other than going insane with all the hysteria on the web boards nothing would really change.

[RavishingEddie]

One thing that I understand about marketing is that not always dropping price will bring you more money. Sure you sell more, but your return is smaller and people will start wondering why it is so cheap. They will start to speculate on the quality of the item. This is the case with any item that exists. For instance if DYE comes out with a brand new barrel system called "Maximum Rappage" and charged the same that they do for an Ultra Light. People would buy it for two reasons. It is from DYE and it is expensive so it must be good. If Dye would however charge a meesly $89.00 for a the whole kit they would sell less of them just because people are not used to such cheap prices and would blow them off as cheap.

As far as SP is concered, I believe they have used rusted anchors to stay in paintball. They are relying on pure fad for profits on their ION. It won't be long till Tippmann and Spyder and all others jump on the band wagon and offer an equal if not better option for the same price. Therefor, if kids start telling kids ION's are for dorks then the ION fad will dissapear faster than a $100.00 in a strip club. Next is how SP is using scare tactics and bringing the law into paintball, instead of focusing on beating the competition with clearly superior products. Look at Tippmann for example, they're guns are regular blowbacks, but the cyclone system, Flatline barrels, and the new ACT are going to make them prosper. I am not a fan of Tippmann, but I got respect for them. Patents don't last forever and either do fads. When the IONS start to drop in price I assure you it's because their sales have dropped and they will attempt to keep it in the market, even if it means getting a lower margin.

[NukeGoose]

Therefor, if kids start telling kids ION's are for dorks then the ION fad will dissapear faster than a $100.00 in a strip club.

People bash on Ions more than anything as being a 'noob' gun. Have you been around PBNation much? A good percentage of the posts are bashing Ions / Ion users. Also, have you shot an Ion? I'm not going to say that they're as smooth or refined as most of the thousand-dollar electros, but you really do get a lot for your money - it'll shoot faster than you can legally pull, breakbeam eyes, low kick, and it comes stock with ramping modes. Stock, it can easily compete with any gun on the market, and with a few upgrades, you can make it shoot just as smoothly. I play with a few guys on the PunishersPB.com team sometimes, and I can assure you that they are not outgunned using their Ions.

Look at Tippmann for example, they're guns are regular blowbacks, but the cyclone system, Flatline barrels, and the new ACT are going to make them prosper.

If the Cyclone feed and Flatline barrels haven't caught on yet, I don't think that they will. They work well and do what they are intended to do, and they certainly have their niche in the market, but I doubt that we're going to see a big popularity boom for Flatlines or A-5s like there was for the Ion. Tippmann products are very reliable and backed by one of the best customer support teams around - this is why they are as popular as they are. However, it will not cause a major market shift like the Ion did. Tippmanns are popular and will continue to be reliable sellers but won't suddenly 'take off' like the Ion.

There are a few reasons for Smart Parts to drop the price on Ions. It gives Smart Parts brand name exposure to people entering the sport. It puts pressure on lower-price gun manufacturers such as Tippmann and Kingman (as well as WGP's Trilogy line). It increases Smart Parts' market share. Maybe Smart Parts did their market research and found that they were likely to see an increase in profits from lowering the price. Ions were (and still are) selling like hotcakes.

[zt10]

i have owned an ion and i must say that i was mildly impressed. i was part of the stingray generation and have been through pirahnas, classic mags, x-valved mags, ebladed cockers, with tippmans and ions somewhere in between all of those and now i own a timmy. i must say that even though i hate sp, the ion is the best gun for that price range, i personally believe it is way more reliable than the stingray or the piranha ever was. tippman will keep selling to teh woodsball crowd and those that love the reliability of the tippman. I think kingman has been hurt the most. supposedly kingman is coming out with a whole new line called the VS or something. i am interested to see if they can compete with the ion.

[PnueMagger]

People that purchase from AGD are usually looking for quality not plastic.

I've seen several posts about the "plastic issue" : Let's clear this up right now.

Why is everyone so hastey about buying a gun cause it uses a polymer shell and trigger. It really is very durable, not integral to the marker function, and takes scrtaches alot better than an annoed aluminum marker. And is easy to replace if necessary.

He who lives in a glass house should not throw stones. Let's not forget that a standard RT PRO, Minimag, and Pro Classic come with polymer frames from the AGD store AND aren't any cheaper than an ION -- they even cost much more than a new ION and don't have the features. That trigger frame is a much more integral part than the body shell of an ION too. If you want an I-frame you gotta drop an extra $80-115 to dump the 1X polymer frame.

So lets see...
Buy an ION for $200, aftermarket aluminum body for $65, and roller trigger for $20 = $285
or
RT Pro for $355, Blade I-iframe $75 = $430
or
Minimag/Pro Classic for $230, Blade I-frame $115 = $345

I'm not ripping on mags here, they are far better in quality -- but with all that saved money you could get a hopper or tank or enough Orings and boards to even outlast the mags. You also get firing modes and eyes and better efficiency.

[PnueMagger]

Sorry Tom...forgot about answering the actual question

It wouldn't chnge the actual sport, just the guns used. If it were in the $125 range and other markers didn't drastically lower in price:

Everyone would either have Ions as their backups, or Ions as their main marker.
All other lower-than-high-end markers would slowly fade out as new players replace older players (who prefer niche markers)
The average highest end markers would drop to ~$500.
The ion's aftermarket upgrades would increase making it become faster, more reliable, and overall better.
Paint sales would see a slight increase due to faster average ROFs and a moderate increase due to PB's increased popularity/affordability
The Gardner's would run for political office (Just joking on this one)

Here's what SP should do...The ION II
Raise the cost of the gun back up to $300. If SP dumped every bit of that $100 into quality, there would be no reason not buy an ION. Invest in 6000/7000 series aluminum for the barrels, gripframes, tiggers, and regs. Tighten up the machining tolerances. Raise the BPS cap to 25ish. And hardcoat annodize rather than powdercoat. This really wouldn't cost that much for SP to do either. They don't even have to dump the Plastic shell.

[Toll]

Ions are rediculously popular locally so I tend to do quite a bit involving them. Things that I'd like to see done to them to make them a little better :

1) Most of the things pnuemagger listed
2) cocker threaded. Personal preference, and I know they'd never do it.
3) Bolt out back as standard
4) Get rid of the crap powder coat. It's nice and all, but a nice hard coat would be superb.
5) Make a standard trigger that emulates the roller style triggers
6) Cheap but effective locking feedneck as stock.
7) Mem.pad instead of that damn irritating button.
8) LCD instead of blinks. Much more user friendly for the new guys who want to turn their ramping off (heh)

I've shot alot of ions..I don't particularly like them, but for the price who can argue. Most of this stuff has been thought of already and are now after market accessories. If they keep dropping their prices to the 150 mark, there is absolutely no reason to buy a spyder/clone.


Slowly my feild has been contemplating replacing our "reactor" packages (98's with Rts) with Ions and revs. a 98 with RT/rev is approx 150 dollars or so used on PBN or similar site. A used ion with a rev is about the same price.

Personally I get a bit sick of hearing the guys at the feild make fun of the kids with ions. They are purely upset because their 1000 dollar marker isn't better than it. My personal favourite is the 06 crowd. Nice, new ego's....They don't shoot any faster than the ions (our feild is capped semi 15) so really that 800 dollars extra goes into their ego...in both senses. By and large ion's are fine for what they are. a few modifications and they'd be amazing for the price for 300 retail NIB.