G-Force to release pneumatic frames for the Mags

[going_home]

If you make a quality LPR I am convinced that you will sell all you can make.
Word will get out and people will find a way to make it work for their projects.

[warbeak2099]

If you make a quality LPR I am convinced that you will sell all you can make.
Word will get out and people will find a way to make it work for their projects.

I think most of the people on here will simply claim that there's no need for a better LPR. It wouldn't sell on AO. He'd be better off marketing it on CC. There are too many AO'ers who think they can use a tickler and get the same performance as a micro rock or regular rock. These are the same people who have apparently never shot a cocker.

Also, AO'ers are probably not going to trust G-Force ever again as even Garf has admitted. Which is why he isn't going to offer the LP mod for mags and why I think it'd be sillier still for him to offer these LPR's on a wider scale here.

[flyingpootang]

I own both a tickler and a mini rock and performance wise it's dead even on my PneuMags. Although having a tickler on a Cocker may be a different story. The difference in piston size and stoke of a Cocker ram vs a MPA-3 is huge. So if putting on a 60 LPR vs a 20 LPR makes you sleep better at night because you think your getting that .0000001 sec faster recharge rate kudos to ya. I'd put my Pneumag frame up against any G-Force any day. If you don't know how to tune a PneuMag properly and are mechanically declined then yeah maybe a manufactured frame my be the way to go....

[UThomas]

I own both a tickler and a mini rock and performance wise it's dead even on my PneuMags

What is the output pressure?

I'd put my Pneumag frame up against any G-Force any day

Have you actually shot a G-Force frame?

[warbeak2099]

I own both a tickler and a mini rock and performance wise it's dead even on my PneuMags. Although having a tickler on a Cocker may be a different story. The difference in piston size and stoke of a Cocker ram vs a MPA-3 is huge. So if putting on a 60 LPR vs a 20 LPR makes you sleep better at night because you think your getting that .0000001 sec faster recharge rate kudos to ya. I'd put my Pneumag frame up against any G-Force any day. If you don't know how to tune a PneuMag properly and are mechanically declined then yeah maybe a manufactured frame my be the way to go....

Have you ever shot a gun with the pivot point behind the trigger? It's a drastic difference. Being able to set the LPR pressure as low as you can with the ram configuration is a huge advantage over modded Intellis too. Even a properly tuned modded intelli isn't going to have those advantages. It probably shoots great, but it's just not as good as this frame. Whether the wait and hardship has been worth the superior product, well that's debatable. But it is better. You can't tell me that a frame with a better oriented trigger setup and ram configuration that allows for a lighter pull is not better than a home mod that runs at a higher pressure and has a trigger with the pivot point directly over it. That's just silly.

As for the Tickler, it's not a .0000001 sec faster recharge. It's the FACT that you have to run the Tickler at a significantly higher pressure to get a reasonable recharge. That's putting a lot more force on the sear extender and it's giving you a much heavier pull. You can get a way better pull with a Rock or Micro Rock. If you like your Tickler, go ahead and use it. Those of us who notice the significant difference would rather use a reg that doesn't need to be set at 70psi to get a decent recharge rate, resulting in a heavier trigger pull. And please don't tell me that running a Tickler at 70psi isn't going to give a heavier pull than running a better lpr at 25psi. It's a much bigger difference than you're making it out to be.

[Mongoose]

Have you ever shot a gun with the pivot point behind the trigger? It's a drastic difference. Being able to set the LPR pressure as low as you can with the ram configuration is a huge advantage over modded Intellis too. Even a properly tuned modded intelli isn't going to have those advantages. It probably shoots great, but it's just not as good as this frame. Whether the wait and hardship has been worth the superior product, well that's debatable. But it is better. You can't tell me that a frame with a better oriented trigger setup and ram configuration that allows for a lighter pull is not better than a home mod that runs at a higher pressure and has a trigger with the pivot point directly over it. That's just silly.

As for the Tickler, it's not a .0000001 sec faster recharge. It's the FACT that you have to run the Tickler at a significantly higher pressure to get a reasonable recharge. That's putting a lot more force on the sear extender and it's giving you a much heavier pull. You can get a way better pull with a Rock or Micro Rock. If you like your Tickler, go ahead and use it. Those of us who notice the significant difference would rather use a reg that doesn't need to be set at 70psi to get a decent recharge rate, resulting in a heavier trigger pull. And please don't tell me that running a Tickler at 70psi isn't going to give a heavier pull than running a better lpr at 25psi. It's a much bigger difference than you're making it out to be.

i understand what you are saying....But my trigger pull is very light....i too can pull the trigger using a straw....i dont think i would want it much lighter.

I honestly believe trigger pull and trigger feel is something that is different to everyone...everyone has their favorite setup....i personally like my trigger feel to be a bit sloppy while someone else would hate it that way. there is no better or worse...only what is comfortable to the user.

all i know is i can rip 15+ on my pneumag...and thats plenty fast for me

[flyingpootang]

I own both a tickler and a mini rock and performance wise it's dead even on my PneuMags

What is the output pressure?

I'd put my Pneumag frame up against any G-Force any day

Have you actually shot a G-Force frame?

1) Do you own a LPR gauge too???

2) No....Have you shot my Pneumag? Then I guess your question has little merit.

Have you ever shot a gun with the pivot point behind the trigger? It's a drastic difference. Being able to set the LPR preussure as low as you can with the ram configuration is a huge advantage over modded Intellis too. Even a properly tuned modded intelli isn't going to have those advantages. It probably shoots great, but it's just not as good as this frame. Whether the wait and hardship has been worth the superior product, well that's debatable. But it is better. You can't tell me that a frame with a better oriented trigger setup and ram configuration that allows for a lighter pull is not better than a home mod that runs at a higher pressure and has a trigger with the pivot point directly over it. That's just silly.

As for the Tickler, it's not a .0000001 sec faster recharge. It's the FACT that you have to run the Tickler at a significantly higher pressure to get a reasonable recharge. That's putting a lot more force on the sear extender and it's giving you a much heavier pull. You can get a way better pull with a Rock or Micro Rock. If you like your Tickler, go ahead and use it. Those of us who notice the significant difference would rather use a reg that doesn't need to be set at 70psi to get a decent recharge rate, resulting in a heavier trigger pull. And please don't tell me that running a Tickler at 70psi isn't going to give a heavier pull than running a better lpr at 25psi. It's a much bigger difference than you're making it out to be.

1) I have shot, tuned, overhauled, & have modded Cockers for years. My first Cocker came with the bolt packed with Vaseline, so yeah I've been doing this for a while. The point you are missing is Pneumags are not Cockers. The LPR doesn't have to run a 3-way, and a ram so the pressure requirements are not the same. Think about it the stroke on a Cocker ram is at least an 1 1/4 inches and only 1/4 of an inch of stroke on a Pneumag.

2) I understand very well that part trigger pull weight has to do with the LPR and MSV-2 actuation point on the arm. Again if you need to set your reg higher to get a decent recharge rate YOU don't know how to tune a Pneumag and should stick with a manufactured frame. Also you mean to tell me that my tickler is running at 70 psi because you gauged it and your LPR gauge on your rock reg is only reading 25 psi?

I gotta call Palmers and get a LPR gauge for sure? Maybe the rock LPR gauges are only know about by the pivot trigger Cocker people

[MANN]

I gotta call Palmers and get a LPR gauge for sure? Maybe the rock LPR gauges are only know about by the pivot trigger Cocker people

clippard has them for ~ 6-7 bucks. with 10-32f output. I run my ep mags at ~50. if you need a part number lmk

[UThomas]

1) Do you own a LPR gauge too???

I had one that got stolen - it was oil filled and I think went up to ~100 psi. I got it from AKA or Palmers - they are not hard to come by. You said they were the same performance wise, so I assumed you could give us the actual LPR output on which you based that statement.

2) No....Have you shot my Pneumag? Then I guess your question has little merit.

No - but then again I'm not implying that a home brew dremel job is the same as a custom production frame made by a machinist. So that said your comparison apparently has little merit until you try a G-Force frame.

[flyingpootang]

clippard has them for ~ 6-7 bucks. with 10-32f output. I run my ep mags at ~50. if you need a part number lmk

LOL....I'm not surprised, but I'm not that hypercritical over my LPR output pressure. Knowing what the LPR pressure is set at will not make my pneu trigger any lighter, but if it ever keeps me up at night not knowing I'll let you know. I had and compared the Dart, Mini Rock and Tickler on my pneumag and neither had an advantage on trigger pull or recharge rate. Too low of a LPR pressure regardless of the pneuframe and you will need some type of trigger return which in turn will affect your trigger pull.

[flyingpootang]

1) Do you own a LPR gauge too???

I had one that got stolen - it was oil filled and I think went up to ~100 psi. I got it from AKA or Palmers - they are not hard to come by. You said they were the same performance wise, so I assumed you could give us the actual LPR output on which you based that statement.

2) No....Have you shot my Pneumag? Then I guess your question has little merit.

No - but then again I'm not implying that a home brew dremel job is the same as a custom production frame made by a machinist. So that said your comparison apparently has little merit until you try a G-Force frame.

You gotta read a little more thoroughly or maybe I need to post in more laymen terms since I never said anything about what LPR output pressure numbers where. Having a gauge being oil filled is useless it's calibrated by a certified shop. So your basing your frame is superior because it was made by a machinist? Please enlighten us on how and why since your so versed....

Remember that my pneumag components are machined by a large manufacture who has a large R&D department with industry leading engineers.

[Smoothice]

Alright alright. Lets stop the infighting.

This lpr debate is kind of like comparing computer speeds if you ask me.

I say my 2.4 ghz is better then your 2.2 ghz while typing in word.

We have to remember these frames are limited by our fingers. Which means they are not nearly performing to their highest capability.

Now if these were ep frames then I could see where the lpr would really make a difference. When someone is just playing around trying to shoot 30bps.

[flyingpootang]

Alright alright. Lets stop the infighting.

This lpr debate is kind of like comparing computer speeds if you ask me.

I say my 2.4 ghz is better then your 2.2 ghz while typing in word.

We have to remember these frames are limited by our fingers. Which means they are not nearly performing to their highest capability.

Now if these were ep frames then I could see where the lpr would really make a difference. When someone is just playing around trying to shoot 30bps.

Your no fun....

[UThomas]

Lets not confuse the issue. Your original post was:

I own both a tickler and a mini rock and performance wise it's dead even on my PneuMags

I asked what pressure they were running at - which would seem to be a good metric to figure out relative performance of two regulators who aren't starving ('dead even') at your claimed '15+' bps. You don't seem to know - apparently surprised LPR gauges were even readily available - so now I'm wondering what made you post that. What is that statement based on?

This isn't about me comparing a frame I don't own to one I do - you're the only one going out on that limb. I have - at no point - made that comparison, though if I were to, I would likely begin by trying out your frame (measuring LPR pressure on the piston) and then pointing out differences in trigger geometry like warbeak2099 did.

[warbeak2099]

I understand very well that part trigger pull weight has to do with the LPR and MSV-2 actuation point on the arm. Again if you need to set your reg higher to get a decent recharge rate YOU don't know how to tune a Pneumag and should stick with a manufactured frame.

And does your home brewed frame have the ram positioned as low on the sear arm as a G-Force frame? I sincerely doubt it. The point is that those of us who bought the frames wanted that extra performance. And we did get it. Your frame probably shoots great. We just wanted the extra mile. We got a better frame with a more comfortable trigger geometry and a lighter, smoother trigger pull. You poke fun at my comment on the pivot point, but it honestly does make a huge difference. There's a reason a lot of high end marker manufacturers are following Bob Long's example. And Garf did a great job following that example as well. Compare this trigger to one on an Intelli and then tell me the Intelli's trigger feels just as good. I've done that and the Intelli feels like garbage compared to this. Like I said, it's like comparing a timmy trigger and a shocker trigger. The latter falls short on so many levels. The Intelli has no roller bearing, it's got that awkward vertical pivot point, and it's got side to side slop. The G-Force frame's trigger has no side to side slop, it's got a roller bearing, and the pivot point is far enough behind the trigger to yield a better feeling pull.

Now again, this doesn't mean your frame is garbage, if it's as well tuned as you say it is, I'm sure it feels great to you. But I'd rather have a product that wasn't designed as a homemade afterthought. The Intelli can only go so far the way it was designed.

Not that this discussion is the point of this thread. Let's simply continue to discuss how we can get these LPR's in a timely manner without scaring Garf away. If anyone has ideas, they should direct them to him and I sure hope he takes the advice. We've got some great minds here on AO.

[LK-13]

Looper,

Do you think spaming me on CC gets your LPR done faster???

I am not doing any AC production projects on CC until your Micro-LPRs are delivered. A EGO feedneck mod is a mod not prototyping or production work like the LPRs.


Folks,

You all treat Pnuemager as a hero for his $30 adaptor which should be $2.

If you continue to use a Tickler, eventually you will break the sear extender.

I have done testing on the Tickler a long time ago and found it to be unsatifactory and knew the only way to do it right for our frames is to custom build a low pressure high volume Micro-LPR. The Micro-LPR will give you a much lighter trigger pull as well. Somehow the demand for it wasn't there because everyone thought a Tickler would do the job and most have gone external. Even external, I wouldn't use the Tickler either.

I am sorry for missing the promised dates, but the pre-production Micro-LPRs still have bugs and perfomance issues. I believe this frame deserves better, but you would rather have the LPRs delivered as is?

Garf

hmmm....
posted yesterday at 9:17 AM.
Yesterday was March 2, 2009.
Interesting.
This thread was started on August 30,2007. at 09:14 PM
And money was accepted in October, 2007 for an early 2008 delivery of completed product.
Interesting.

BTW,
this is not flaming.
this is not liable.
all of the above are known fact.


I wonder if other interests of the company in question meet their dead lines?

[flyingpootang]

Lets not confuse the issue. Your original post was:

I own both a tickler and a mini rock and performance wise it's dead even on my PneuMags

I asked what pressure they were running at - which would seem to be a good metric to figure out relative performance of two regulators who aren't starving ('dead even') at your claimed '15+' bps. You don't seem to know - apparently surprised LPR gauges were even readily available - so now I'm wondering what made you post that. What is that statement based on?

This isn't about me comparing a frame I don't own to one I do - you're the only one going out on that limb. I have - at no point - made that comparison, though if I were to, I would likely begin by trying out your frame (measuring LPR pressure on the piston) and then pointing out differences in trigger geometry like warbeak2099 did.

You seriously need to comprehend or understand if that's easier for you to understand what you read. I never stated "I was able to do 15 bps" , and if you think I needed to install a gauge with a 10/32 fitting just to figure out what my piston pressure is, sorry I'm not that anal, but If I wanted to fabricating one would be that difficult. Although your store bought one will probably out preform mine. You know what they say when you "assume". I think your out on the limb by showing your ignorance on pneumags. I guess you don't have a valid reason why the G-force so don't worry about answering it

[flyingpootang]

And does your home brewed frame have the ram positioned as low on the sear arm as a G-Force frame? I sincerely doubt it. The point is that those of us who bought the frames wanted that extra performance. And we did get it. Your frame probably shoots great. We just wanted the extra mile. We got a better frame with a more comfortable trigger geometry and a lighter, smoother trigger pull. You poke fun at my comment on the pivot point, but it honestly does make a huge difference. There's a reason a lot of high end marker manufacturers are following Bob Long's example. And Garf did a great job following that example as well. Compare this trigger to one on an Intelli and then tell me the Intelli's trigger feels just as good. I've done that and the Intelli feels like garbage compared to this. Like I said, it's like comparing a timmy trigger and a shocker trigger. The latter falls short on so many levels. The Intelli has no roller bearing, it's got that awkward vertical pivot point, and it's got side to side slop. The G-Force frame's trigger has no side to side slop, it's got a roller bearing, and the pivot point is far enough behind the trigger to yield a better feeling pull.

Now again, this doesn't mean your frame is garbage, if it's as well tuned as you say it is, I'm sure it feels great to you. But I'd rather have a product that wasn't designed as a homemade afterthought. The Intelli can only go so far the way it was designed.

Not that this discussion is the point of this thread. Let's simply continue to discuss how we can get these LPR's in a timely manner without scaring Garf away. If anyone has ideas, they should direct them to him and I sure hope he takes the advice. We've got some great minds here on AO.

You might also want to read a little more carfully. I never stated I had an Intelli as you put it. As far as your assumption that the extra leverage the G-Force offers over my pneumag, re-read my post

Too low of a LPR pressure regardless of the pneuframe and you will need some type of trigger return which in turn will affect your trigger pull.

If you think that a longer lever on the sear leg can only be done by G-Force and wasn't
thought of by anyone else you are sadly mistaken....

[UThomas]

I never stated "I was able to do 15 bps"

What 15+ are you ripping then in your exact quote below? Can you help me interpret that?

all i know is i can rip 15+ on my pneumag

I'll also take it from your non sequiter responses to a very direct question ("What is the output pressure?") that for some reason meander around if *I* have a LPR gauge and it's specs that you're not at all going to add any sort of evidence to your original statement:

I own both a tickler and a mini rock and performance wise it's dead even on my PneuMags

Would it be fair to assume then that you don't have any evidence?

Bear in mind - as I stated previously - at no point did I say the G-Force frame was "better" than your misc frame stuffed with clippard parts. So you can stop with that strawman now.

[Mongoose]

What 15+ are you ripping then in your exact quote below? Can you help me interpret that?



I'll also take it from your non sequiter responses to a very direct question ("What is the output pressure?") that for some reason meander around if *I* have a LPR gauge and it's specs that you're not at all going to add any sort of evidence to your original statement:



Would it be fair to assume then that you don't have any evidence?

Bear in mind - as I stated previously - at no point did I say the G-Force frame was "better" than your misc frame stuffed with clippard parts. So you can stop with that strawman now.

um.......i posted that statement about 15+ not him
and its true .....feel free to send me your g-frame...i can see how fast i can shoot it

[UThomas]

Thanks - I stand corrected!

At any rate - we should be able to agree a tickler and a mini rock are not the same performance wise. They just aren't - and they can't be due to their design dimensions. And for flyingpootang to come onto this thread as if he is an expert and say that they are the same in performance and that using a tickler on a G-Force frame is fine - a frame he hasn't used and in direct contradiction to the actual manufacturer several posts earlier - seems very silly. Just my 2 cents.

[BigEvil]

- seems very silly.

Of course it is, this is the internet. Its all fun and games until someone pokes an eye out.

[going_home]

Of course it is, this is the internet. Its all fun and games until someone pokes an eye out.

Always be safe and wear protection.

[890SHAWN]

OH-my eye!

[Beemer]

OH-my eye!

You did it wrong.

[warbeak2099]

At any rate - we should be able to agree a tickler and a mini rock are not the same performance wise. They just aren't - and they can't be due to their design dimensions. And for flyingpootang to come onto this thread as if he is an expert and say that they are the same in performance and that using a tickler on a G-Force frame is fine - a frame he hasn't used and in direct contradiction to the actual manufacturer several posts earlier - seems very silly. Just my 2 cents.

dawt

[flyingpootang]

Thanks - I stand corrected!

At any rate - we should be able to agree a tickler and a mini rock are not the same performance wise. They just aren't - and they can't be due to their design dimensions. And for flyingpootang to come onto this thread as if he is an expert and say that they are the same in performance and that using a tickler on a G-Force frame is fine - a frame he hasn't used and in direct contradiction to the actual manufacturer several posts earlier - seems very silly. Just my 2 cents.

Wow your reading comprehension skills still need work.
1) Why should we agree that a mini rock and Tickler don't have the same preformance? Because you say with no proof or compression and now your speaking for everyone on AO? Should we all bow at the same time? In order for me to believe that statement you have to measure the pressure across the piston face first Did you have the dimension of either LPR at a set input pressure. I doubt that you even know how to calculate it since all of your statements are based on "because you said so".

2) I did say they are the same performance because I used them both on the same platform. Although unscientific by your standards because I didn't use a gauge. It is possible to compare different LPRs by just shooting the marker. You don't have to be Einstein to figure that out.

3) I never said it was fine to use a Tickler. I said that I would meaning me

Would I use one on a G-Force frame without worrying YUP, but then again I'm a Dremel Machinist.......

3) Your .02 cents on your opinion? You got that wrong also, because it's worthless.

4) Sorry you got your panties all in a bunch or this, but you still haven't proved that the G-Force is superior over a "Home Brewed PneuMag" in anyway except you saying so.

5) My appologies to Garf. I am no way saying your frame is inferior to other pneumags. For the price of 199.00 is an excellent deal considering building one from scratch is almost the same. If you ever had these in stock with internal or external LPRs I'm sure there would be a huge market for a plug and play frame.

6) My test "Intelli framed" platforms. Please disregard the Dremel marks/boo boos and note the upper mag doesn't have a MicroRock on it. It's actually a mock up made of Play Doh, so I can't give you a proper compression. Also missing is the LPR oil filled gauge.
Click on the pic to enlarge..

[UThomas]

Look - we don't need you coming on here telling use R&D takes time (amazing insight), that your speculate the GForce LPR will be done (based on reading the same thread we all are), or that you would use a tickler on the GForce frame (which you don't have). The last point you are particularly unqualified to say - and we already heard from the manufacturer that this is not the case so I'm not sure why you would even post that. My estimation of the reason Garf said this is at the end...

As for specifics:

Why should we agree that a mini rock and Tickler don't have the same preformance?

Because it is extremely well known that these have different internal piston sizes and volume.

It is possible to compare different LPRs by just shooting the marker

Riiiiiight... so basically anything that makes the marker fire at any pressure at all means the LPR's have the same performance.

but you still haven't proved that the G-Force is superior over a "Home Brewed PneuMag" in anyway except you saying so

Where, specifically, did I say this? Though at this point I don't need too since others have posted good reasons.

Anyway - to get this back on point. If you take a GForce framed mag, due to the geometry of the design you can easily trip the sear with your finger at the end of the sear extension. I cannot do this higher up on the sear - especially where some home made ones trip it. So the sear extender requires/allows much less force on it (and is much softer than the actual hardened sear) to trip the sear.

If you use a tickler - which has to be run at a higher pressure because it has relatively low recharge rates (due to lack of volume) - you will likely be hitting the sear extender with much more force than is actually required to trip the sear, and much more force than it it designed to withstand over time. If you run it at the correct pressures required to simply trip the sear at the extender point, you will have issues at high rates of fire (including potential pressure spikes when it can't close fast enough that would again damage the extender).

[TwilightG]

So now that all of this has been discussed ad nauseum....
For the majority of G-Force frame owners who chose not to purchase the internal G-Force LPR, what is the recommended LPR for this frame?

[UThomas]

Rock's and Micro rocks I'm sure work like champs (rock's just have an extra over pressure relief) and I think Garf has stated in the past that is what he used. Presumably other "full size" LPR's (like Eclipse Darts) work well also - though that is the only one I have personally tested.