G-Force to release pneumatic frames for the Mags

**UThomas** · 03-07-2009, 10:22 PM

I'm not really sure why you're arguing with me (?) People can and do shoot fast enough in spurts to make a tickler as the LPR an issue.

**flyingpootang** · 03-08-2009, 12:57 AM

UThomas and warbreak2099, Your argument is that you can't use a Tickler in a G-Force frame because of its high pressure low volume and you will loose the oh so sweet trigger by having to jack up the pressure. Well here's a video proving you wrong....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLE_mtAOBq4

**UThomas** · 03-08-2009, 01:17 AM

Once again - that's not an argument I ever made. I simply and repeatedly stated that a tickler will have to run at a higher PSI to run the frame due to it's inherent design and this will damage the sear extender and waste air. This in theory but maybe not in practice would change the feel of the trigger (I don't know).

That video is cool - but I'm not clear what it is suppose to prove. Specifically - I'd be looking to see what PSI it takes to run the GForce frame fast with a tickler (vs a rock), what the pressure required to activate the frame with a tickler (vs a rock - to see if it does change the pull feel), and if prolonged use shows stress or wear on the extender arm.

Ask yourself why the manufacturer doesn't think the tickler is good for his frame. You'd think if it was he would use it and save himself a lot of headache. Somehow you seem to be personalizing this and making it about you and your frame setup.

**flyingpootang** · 03-08-2009, 10:21 AM

What does the video prove? My point

You keep saying you have to crank up the pressure which would ruin the sear due to the high press low volume. When you other increase the pressure the pneumatic switch will need move force to close it. You statement "crank it up" alone implies an excessive amount of pressure is needed to run this frame. Since the maker of the video is walking the trigger fairly easy the performance difference may be fairly close. In this case it would be interesting to find out what the exact pressure differences are between the different types of LPRs. It's hard to believe that making 10 new sear extenders is not cost productive vs making a viable LPR, but that's Garf's call. Your outlandish comparison of a G-force being a "track car" and a DIY "a golf cart" is another pretentious assumption on your/everyone's (since you speak for all) behalf require another video to prove you wrong?????

**UThomas** · 03-08-2009, 01:11 PM

What does the video prove? My point

I have no idea what you are talking about here. What is your point? It was that it "proved" us wrong, which I didn't understand either. I'm not sure why you keep misrepresenting my points on just about every post - but to be very clear I never made the claim that the trigger pull would change substantially at a higher LPR setting, OR that the sear extender would break immediately upon use at the higher LPR setting.

In this case it would be interesting to find out what the exact pressure differences are between the different types of LPRs

This is exactly why that was the very first question I asked you - which for some reason lead to a non sequiter reply on if I had a LPR gauge.

**Beemer** · 03-08-2009, 02:38 PM

Ok.........You guys want to carry on take it to PMs or go make your own thread.

Has it been a week yet Garf?????????

https://www.automags.org/forums/showp...postcount=2037

**cyberave68** · 03-08-2009, 09:46 PM

Originally Posted by G-Force Tech

Pneumagger, cyberdave,etc and others that have been selling DIY pneu kits and doing conversions have made lot of $$$$$$$$ for years that are covered in our patents and at the same time should be paying AO to be a selling vendor.

I stepped up to the plate and delivered a pneu frame from the ground up instead of stuffing parts into a stock frame. Our frames outperforms any DIY frame or conversions out there. I guess the only way for you to match it, is to copy it now.

Garf

OK so 60+ pages later i just seen my name dragged into this

Hi every body im CYBERDAVE68,

For the record on me making money on YOUR patent. let me first say this. your patent has NOTHING to do with me in any way. I offer a service to people and parts. Your patent covers selling markers that use pneus to fire them. What i do is called upgrades or labor. heck i at least can get my stuff done when i say i will, not dragging it out for 1+ years. As for you frame being able to out perform "Our frames outperforms any DIY frame or conversions out there." I CALL YOUR BLUFF!!! On my DIY frames the trigg pull was so soft i had to come up with a way to combat the lack of trigger return, and thats where the Mag Mod came into play. I have been building pneu frames way before you every started here. Before i even started offereing the service i built 6 of my own and each one was different till i figured out how i thought it should be. I also did my research. I also read that your extender will break if you use a tickler type LPR. That sounds like a flaw in your design to me. If it will break with a tickler whats to say it just wont break??? i have built many frames for people that still use ticklers inside and out of the frames for 2-3 years now with out problems. Sure they may not be the best out there but they work in my set up. I also keep reading about your "EXTENDER" being the best posible option for making the pull softer. If you look around at alot of the other DIY frames and look at the ones i do you will see that "YOUR" idea is the same as mine. So what you added another way for the mag to "BREAK" by adding a part to the sear arm... Well in my frames i left the lever on the MSV-2 longer to combat the extra air pressure needed to fire the marker. looks more like all you did is find a way to copy what i already did years before you made your frame. Do your self a favor an keep me out of your posts as i havent been in here running my mouth till it needs be.

And as for PNEUMAGGER doing his LPR fix/conversion on your frames, Well that is his right to help others out. I think it was great that someone anyone was able to jump in an help out a fellow baller when the dealer him self was having a hard time doing as he said he would. Think of it this way, thats a few less people you have to deal with now that there frames are done......

E-Thug
Cyberave68

Originally Posted by warbeak2099

And does your home brewed frame have the ram positioned as low on the sear arm as a G-Force frame? I sincerely doubt it. The point is that those of us who bought the frames wanted that extra performance. And we did get it. Your frame probably shoots great. We just wanted the extra mile. We got a better frame with a more comfortable trigger geometry and a lighter, smoother trigger pull. You poke fun at my comment on the pivot point, but it honestly does make a huge difference. There's a reason a lot of high end marker manufacturers are following Bob Long's example. And Garf did a great job following that example as well. Compare this trigger to one on an Intelli and then tell me the Intelli's trigger feels just as good. I've done that and the Intelli feels like garbage compared to this. Like I said, it's like comparing a timmy trigger and a shocker trigger. The latter falls short on so many levels. The Intelli has no roller bearing, it's got that awkward vertical pivot point, and it's got side to side slop. The G-Force frame's trigger has no side to side slop, it's got a roller bearing, and the pivot point is far enough behind the trigger to yield a better feeling pull.
Now again, this doesn't mean your frame is garbage, if it's as well tuned as you say it is, I'm sure it feels great to you. But I'd rather have a product that wasn't designed as a homemade afterthought. The Intelli can only go so far the way it was designed.

Not that this discussion is the point of this thread. Let's simply continue to discuss how we can get these LPR's in a timely manner without scaring Garf away. If anyone has ideas, they should direct them to him and I sure hope he takes the advice. We've got some great minds here on AO.

And does your home brewed frame have the ram positioned as low on the sear arm as a G-Force frame? I sincerely doubt it.
Well of course not! we dont want to glue some aluminum peice to the sear arm that could possible fall off...

We got a better frame with a more comfortable trigger geometry and a lighter, smoother trigger pull.
Again your opinion and you have that right... I have had some people LOVE my work and others tell me that is not what they expected. There is no way to please everybody i know that, but you stand behind your frame calling people out. "Have you ever shot one before" Its a good thing you like the frame it means you feel you got your moneys worth and at least your happy with it. But please stop syaing it is better. you have no real proof other than your OPINION and that you like it A LOT....

Compare this trigger to one on an Intelli and then tell me the Intelli's trigger feels just as good. I've done that and the Intelli feels like garbage compared to this
That would be cause you did it WRONG. All you do is keep up the HYPE on the G-Force frame and saying have you ever shot one? I CALL YOUR BLUFF as well!!! Have you ever shot one of my frames??? Do you know how soft the pull actually is???

The Intelli has no roller bearing
1) have you every heard of a VIPERBLADE TRIGGER???
2) the actual amount of difference in force to pull a trigger with or with out a roller bearing is probably so minute that you wouldnt even be able to tell the difference. The FORCE needed to pull the trigger is STILL THE SAME bearing or no bearing.

the pivot point is far enough behind the trigger to yield a better feeling pull.
Again your opinion, with out any stats its more a matter of preference.....

Originally Posted by warbeak2099

Have you ever shot a gun with the pivot point behind the trigger? It's a drastic difference. Being able to set the LPR pressure as low as you can with the ram configuration is a huge advantage over modded Intellis too. Even a properly tuned modded intelli isn't going to have those advantages. It probably shoots great, but it's just not as good as this frame. Whether the wait and hardship has been worth the superior product, well that's debatable. But it is better. You can't tell me that a frame with a better oriented trigger setup and ram configuration that allows for a lighter pull is not better than a home mod that runs at a higher pressure and has a trigger with the pivot point directly over it. That's just silly.

Have you ever shot a gun with the pivot point behind the trigger? It's a drastic difference. Being able to set the LPR pressure as low as you can with the ram configuration is a huge advantage over modded Intellis too.
No actually i havent, but then again what stats do you have that says a changed pivot point offers a DRASTIC change in the amount of pressure you need to fire the marker? I have a longer pivot point on my MSV-2 which is a better fulcrum piont for the trigger. No different than adding an arm on the sear that may or may not break off during use...

It probably shoots great, but it's just not as good as this frame.
Again your opinion..... YOU have nothing to back that up with other than your own ruined attempt at a DIY frame.

But it is better. You can't tell me that a frame with a better oriented trigger setup and ram configuration that allows for a lighter pull is not better than a home mod that runs at a higher pressure and has a trigger with the pivot point directly over it. That's just silly.
THIS WHOLE STATMENT IS SILLY!!! Just because you REALLY like this frame doesnt mean it is better than how someone else has done it. Again i stat that sure some people dont do it right as i stated you didnt. There is always another way. I dont know if i use less LPR pressure to fire the marker on my frames as the G-force and honestly dont care. But i do call your bluff on how much FINGER pressure is needed to actually fire the marker....

**going_home** · 03-08-2009, 10:26 PM

Uh oh..........

**MANN** · 03-08-2009, 10:58 PM

well said.

**UThomas** · 03-09-2009, 08:21 AM

cyberdave - how much pressure does it take from the LPR to reliably actuate the sear on your frames with a tickler?

Thanks-

**Rudz** · 03-09-2009, 10:24 AM

Now you done it......

The AO guys were doing and continue to do DIY frames, because there's a demand and I'd take a beautiful aftermarket frame with pnuematics over a frame that took over a year to make and came with some glued on parts and funky looking panels.

Piont is, the DIY frames are just as great as the g force frame, we all expected something magical from g force and all we got was subpar, in my opinion the DIY os better due to the many frame options, turn around time, trigger and grip options are endless depending on frame.

I have a DIY frame made by a member here on the forums, and its just as fast as a g force frame and looks a hell of a lot nicer. So before anyone opens there mouth again they better think twice.....

**MANN** · 03-09-2009, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by UThomas

cyberdave - how much pressure does it take from the LPR to reliably actuate the sear on your frames with a tickler?

Thanks-

I know it will be higher than what a gforce frame is. Something you have to remember tho is that the leverage of the msv2 will decrease the feel of the higher psi.

/with enough leverage you could move the world.

**UThomas** · 03-09-2009, 01:22 PM

Does anyone know who could actually machine or stamp new trigger plates? And what would that cost for a run of 100?

I'd think not only GForce owners but a lot of DIY guys would benefit from that.

**BigEvil** · 03-09-2009, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by UThomas

Does anyone know who could actually machine or stamp new trigger plates? And what would that cost for a run of 100?

I'd think not only GForce owners but a lot of DIY guys would benefit from that.

What do you mean by "Trigger plates" ??

**WickedKlown2** · 03-09-2009, 01:54 PM

I think he means sears,,, not trigger plates....

WK2

**UThomas** · 03-09-2009, 02:00 PM

Right right. I went straight autococker on you for a minute

**insixdays777** · 03-09-2009, 02:10 PM

Originally Posted by UThomas

Does anyone know who could actually machine or stamp new sear? And what would that cost for a run of 100?

I'd think not only GForce owners but a lot of DIY guys would benefit from that.

That would be great. I would buy a few...

**BigEvil** · 03-09-2009, 02:15 PM

You mean the sear extender correct?

**robertsr1811** · 03-09-2009, 02:16 PM

I think a lot of us would.

**Dend78** · 03-09-2009, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by UThomas

Does anyone know who could actually machine or stamp new trigger plates? And what would that cost for a run of 100?

I'd think not only GForce owners but a lot of DIY guys would benefit from that.

LUKE may be interested in something like that

**Dend78** · 03-09-2009, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by BigEvil

You mean the sear extender correct?

he means a whole new sear with an extended leg on it 1 piece rather than something added to it

**luke** · 03-09-2009, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by Dend78

LUKE may be interested in something like that

I'm not set up to make an AGD spec sear; I have TIG welded extensions onto a stock sear for several people in the past. But you would need a donor sear for me to it. As far as I know they have never failed..

Now I do have an idea........ that would....... well umm..... never mind.......

That's mine you can't have it.

**Dend78** · 03-09-2009, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by luke

Now I do have an idea........ that would....... well umm..... never mind.......

That's mine you can't have it.

sure we can thats why its lukescustoms.com get it on it man

**p8ntbal4me** · 03-09-2009, 06:24 PM

If Matt can TIG these extenders and make some that are made of steel,.. well thats right there is one solution.

Another is like I said before,... have some sears with longer sear arms made.

C'MON GUYS!!!!! This is AO!!!! We make stuff like this ALL the time!!!!!!!!

If Matt wants to test a sear out with his TIG,... I will offer a sear to send to him and install it into my G-Force frame. Then he can turn around and offer yet another service.

~ P8nt

**cyberave68** · 03-09-2009, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by UThomas

cyberdave - how much pressure does it take from the LPR to reliably actuate the sear on your frames with a tickler?

Thanks-

Honetsly i'm not sure, as i never tested it before. (Not sure i have a way to either?)
Just for example... (Cause i really dont know...)

Lets say a frame i made uses 50lbs of pressure...

an say the G-force uses 30lbs of pressure...

(Again just an example as these are numbers i am tossing out there)

The amount of pressure difference is so little that i honestly belive you are talkin maybe 1-2 shots for every 1000 you do. What we need to remember is we are talking LOW pressure, and the volume of the air in the air line and ram itself. Thats an awfuly small amount compared to the 800 psi operating pressure and space of the valve.... Now the thing i looked at when building my frames was "Force needed to pull the trigger so the marker would fire." Both frames have a extended fulcrum point just in different locations. Mine is directly behind the trigger and his is behind the ram on the sear arm. They both do the same thing just in different spots. Now i know i will prolly never test how much my LPR is tunned to cause i honestly dont care about that part. What i like is the feel of the trigger. Extender up front or in back i bet they do the same thing for the feel. May just be my opinion but you also have to factor the feel of the frame, the feel of the trigger and stuff. If you dont like one you prolly wont like the entire set up if is not done right or to your likeing.

My .02
Cyberave68

**warbeak2099** · 03-10-2009, 08:50 AM

Right, and having that pivot point behind the trigger (nothing to do with the sear or actuation) makes the pull feel so much better. It's all about feeling a quality trigger pull. And a roller bearing trigger with a rearward pivot point is superior to a sans bearing trigger with the pivot right on top of it. I'm of course talking about Intellis or Y Frames.

**Smoothice** · 03-10-2009, 09:55 AM

unsubscribing...

Someone pm me if anything useful ever happens in this thread.

**Beemer** · 03-10-2009, 11:11 AM

Well its been a week..............

https://www.automags.org/forums/showp...postcount=2037

**G-Force Tech** · 03-10-2009, 04:08 PM

New alum pisstons was milled and tested and results looks promising as creep seen to have stopped.

Next on the fix is to boost the air volume still further.

Garf

**Dend78** · 03-10-2009, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by G-Force Tech

New alum pisstons was milled and tested and results looks promising as creep seen to have stopped.

Next on the fix is to boost the air volume still further.

Garf

awsome nice job stickin to your word

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