G-Force to release pneumatic frames for the Mags

[Chris Nearchos]

Greasing the extender and using a higher volume LPR at a lower pressure will allow you to run the thing a lot longer without damage though. Everything wears out, let's face it. Let's just hope Garf will agree to making extras if we need them.

not to step on any toes, but "greasing" the extender will not do anything for help. it will only make a mess out of your "beautiful" frame. to say it simply, grease is meant for two objects that constantly grind/slide against each other.....not a pounding force.

and yes, running a lpr at lower psi will slow down the destruction (which is what Garfs setup will do), but it will still lead to the same result of a hard rod hitting a soft sear extender. plus running it at a lower psi takes away from the "capabilities" of the frame....so in the end, lowering your pressure (which isnt a much of difference of psi in the end) wont do a lick of good for anyone.

and finally yes, most, if not all people around here know that things wear out. but a sear setup should not be wearing out in a season of play. how would you feel if you had to replace your mag sear every season? you wouldn't be too happy with mags at that point. So you cant step in and say that it will happen no matter what, so what happens, happens....

and as you can see, AGD found a way to save the sear over years and years of play. its all about knowing how ot take care of the issue. and in this case, it was something that garf did not take into account and now all of you will pay for it.

as far as hoping garf to do anything...look at what that hope has gotten you in the end. years of waiting a good many still not having a working product.


just a quick heads up, i will have the data posted on these frames of the difference using a tickler (and other lprs) compared to garfs "super lpr" (once its a real thing in this world). but just doing the simple calculations so far on paper, warbeak2099 and all the others that claim current product shelf lprs that people are using are extreamly horrible, might want to start keeping their mouth shut.

-Chris

[Stayhuge]

OK so 60+ pages later i just seen my name dragged into this

Hi every body im CYBERDAVE68,

For the record on me making money on YOUR patent. let me first say this. your patent has NOTHING to do with me in any way. I offer a service to people and parts. Your patent covers selling markers that use pneus to fire them. What i do is called upgrades or labor. heck i at least can get my stuff done when i say i will, not dragging it out for 1+ years. As for you frame being able to out perform "Our frames outperforms any DIY frame or conversions out there." I CALL YOUR BLUFF!!! On my DIY frames the trigg pull was so soft i had to come up with a way to combat the lack of trigger return, and thats where the Mag Mod came into play. I have been building pneu frames way before you every started here. Before i even started offereing the service i built 6 of my own and each one was different till i figured out how i thought it should be. I also did my research. I also read that your extender will break if you use a tickler type LPR. That sounds like a flaw in your design to me. If it will break with a tickler whats to say it just wont break??? i have built many frames for people that still use ticklers inside and out of the frames for 2-3 years now with out problems. Sure they may not be the best out there but they work in my set up. I also keep reading about your "EXTENDER" being the best posible option for making the pull softer. If you look around at alot of the other DIY frames and look at the ones i do you will see that "YOUR" idea is the same as mine. So what you added another way for the mag to "BREAK" by adding a part to the sear arm... Well in my frames i left the lever on the MSV-2 longer to combat the extra air pressure needed to fire the marker. looks more like all you did is find a way to copy what i already did years before you made your frame. Do your self a favor an keep me out of your posts as i havent been in here running my mouth till it needs be.

And as for PNEUMAGGER doing his LPR fix/conversion on your frames, Well that is his right to help others out. I think it was great that someone anyone was able to jump in an help out a fellow baller when the dealer him self was having a hard time doing as he said he would. Think of it this way, thats a few less people you have to deal with now that there frames are done......

E-Thug
Cyberave68





And does your home brewed frame have the ram positioned as low on the sear arm as a G-Force frame? I sincerely doubt it.
Well of course not! we dont want to glue some aluminum peice to the sear arm that could possible fall off...

We got a better frame with a more comfortable trigger geometry and a lighter, smoother trigger pull.
Again your opinion and you have that right... I have had some people LOVE my work and others tell me that is not what they expected. There is no way to please everybody i know that, but you stand behind your frame calling people out. "Have you ever shot one before" Its a good thing you like the frame it means you feel you got your moneys worth and at least your happy with it. But please stop syaing it is better. you have no real proof other than your OPINION and that you like it A LOT....

Compare this trigger to one on an Intelli and then tell me the Intelli's trigger feels just as good. I've done that and the Intelli feels like garbage compared to this
That would be cause you did it WRONG. All you do is keep up the HYPE on the G-Force frame and saying have you ever shot one? I CALL YOUR BLUFF as well!!! Have you ever shot one of my frames??? Do you know how soft the pull actually is???

The Intelli has no roller bearing
1) have you every heard of a VIPERBLADE TRIGGER???
2) the actual amount of difference in force to pull a trigger with or with out a roller bearing is probably so minute that you wouldnt even be able to tell the difference. The FORCE needed to pull the trigger is STILL THE SAME bearing or no bearing.

the pivot point is far enough behind the trigger to yield a better feeling pull.
Again your opinion, with out any stats its more a matter of preference.....





Have you ever shot a gun with the pivot point behind the trigger? It's a drastic difference. Being able to set the LPR pressure as low as you can with the ram configuration is a huge advantage over modded Intellis too.
No actually i havent, but then again what stats do you have that says a changed pivot point offers a DRASTIC change in the amount of pressure you need to fire the marker? I have a longer pivot point on my MSV-2 which is a better fulcrum piont for the trigger. No different than adding an arm on the sear that may or may not break off during use...

It probably shoots great, but it's just not as good as this frame.
Again your opinion..... YOU have nothing to back that up with other than your own ruined attempt at a DIY frame.

But it is better. You can't tell me that a frame with a better oriented trigger setup and ram configuration that allows for a lighter pull is not better than a home mod that runs at a higher pressure and has a trigger with the pivot point directly over it. That's just silly.
THIS WHOLE STATMENT IS SILLY!!! Just because you REALLY like this frame doesnt mean it is better than how someone else has done it. Again i stat that sure some people dont do it right as i stated you didnt. There is always another way. I dont know if i use less LPR pressure to fire the marker on my frames as the G-force and honestly dont care. But i do call your bluff on how much FINGER pressure is needed to actually fire the marker....

Simply amazing, Cyberave.

[UThomas]

years of waiting a good many still not having a working product.

Good post Chris - but to be fair on this point everyone to my knowledge was sent a *working* product. 12 people don't have an internal LPR though (myself included).

For those that don't have it - the frame was designed to be used with an external LPR as well and has LP hose channels in it to make it easy.

[rawbutter]

Not to hijack the thread, but I saw this trailer for a new Disney movie coming out, and it immediately made me think of this frame.

http://www.apple.com/trailers/disney/gforce/

I wonder if the movie was delayed a year before it finally was released?

Disclaimer: No... I won't be seeing it. I'm about twenty years too old to be interested in anthropomorphic gerbals.

[G-Force Tech]

Guys,

A simple fix for this is to either take out the alloy steel 8-32 set screw and replace it with a nylon 8-32 setscrew.

Our prototype is still using a metal 8-32 setscrew with no problems. It does have a mark on it but not huge indentation. You can also take the 8-32 setscrew and polish the end further. It was shipped as a "cup" style end that is not suited for this application. I already grinded the cup off but further polishing would help. I think at this point, a nylon setscrew would be the best fix. The grease is to reduce friction further as the sear extender is swinging back and forth, there is slight sliding of the brass actuator pistion on the sear extender surface.

I still would not recommend a tickler. A full sized LPR can effectively actuate the sear with little force to move the sear extender. The Tickler in an earlier prototype frame damaged a sear extender badly after a case of paint. I use only the the micro rock and full sized rock. Other full sized LPR will also work.

As for make a complete new harden sear, that is open to any airsmith to produce.

Garf

GUYS...looks like Garth is right about the tickler....I just took apart my Gforce frame been running pneumaggers internal tickler set up. I have only shot 2500 rnds through it.

The extender has has nicks and gouges from the piston and the rear extender stop screw. Good thing I found it. No lasting issues as I will no be using it again without the G-Force LPR.

Just be warned...I suggest everyone open up there frames and take a close look at their extenders.

[IMG] [/IMG]

[Chris Nearchos]

Good post Chris - but to be fair on this point everyone to my knowledge was sent a *working* product. 12 people don't have an internal LPR though (myself included).

not true, as most of the fan boys and garf himself have said that using another lpr (then what he is making) is too strong for the setup and will damage the components. so with that said....the frame is not officially complete nor officially working till garf's lpr setup is installed in it. so other then the 12 of you that "might" get the lpr from garf on day, the rest have non-working frames.


-Chris

[Chris Nearchos]

The grease is to reduce friction further as the sear extender is swinging back and forth, there is slight sliding of the brass actuator pistion on the sear extender surface.

I do not understand what you are suggesting here.

are you are suggesting them to put grease on the sear extended where it is being hit? something that will fall off due to gravity and force of being hit? and has to be put back on after every round of play?

or to put grease on the axel of the sear? which would gunk up the sear pivot point and actually not do anything to slow down the swinging of the sear/sear extender because that the speed is set by the on/off of the valve and bolt.

As for make a complete new harden sear, that is open to any airsmith to produce.

so one minute you yell that people are picking up work on your down fall of the product and now you are saying we "can" fix your problems/product? all i can say is wow......


-Chris

[UThomas]

not true, as most of the fan boys and garf himself have said that using another lpr (then what he is making) is too strong for the setup and will damage the components

Hmmm... not sure where you got this Chris. This frame was developed using a rock/microrock and Garf has said that is coool (and in my experience this is true - along with an Eclipse dart LPR). To my knowledge the tickler is the only one so far called out as the trouble maker of the group.

[Chris Nearchos]

Hmmm... not sure where you got this Chris. This frame was developed using a rock/microrock and Garf has said that is coool (and in my experience this is true - along with an Eclipse dart LPR). To my knowledge the tickler is the only one so far called out as the trouble maker of the group.

let me look back through and find those post in a bit. i saw it a few different times.

-Chris

[cyberave68]

Guys,

A simple fix for this is to either take out the alloy steel 8-32 set screw and replace it with a nylon 8-32 setscrew.

Our prototype is still using a metal 8-32 setscrew with no problems. It does have a mark on it but not huge indentation. You can also take the 8-32 setscrew and polish the end further. It was shipped as a "cup" style end that is not suited for this application. I already grinded the cup off but further polishing would help. I think at this point, a nylon setscrew would be the best fix. The grease is to reduce friction further as the sear extender is swinging back and forth, there is slight sliding of the brass actuator pistion on the sear extender surface.

I still would not recommend a tickler. A full sized LPR can effectively actuate the sear with little force to move the sear extender. The Tickler in an earlier prototype frame damaged a sear extender badly after a case of paint. I use only the the micro rock and full sized rock. Other full sized LPR will also work.

As for make a complete new harden sear, that is open to any airsmith to produce.

Garf

I like this statement. Sounds like to me he saying it will work but, we did this and it works better but not on the frames we sent you. Then says what we sent you isnt what we should have sent you but we sent it anyways? And now you should go out and get somethign else. (Thats still wont work)

First let me say that Chris is right. You cant expect a peice of aluminum to hold up to a peice of steel of any kind. It will never happen under those conditions. As for how long it will take theres no real way to tell but it will fail after a while. Now for it to be stated that the part they used had been cleaned up a bit to reduce said problem means he at least noticed a problem. But to not have done that on all the frames he sent out was lazy. He did mention how you could help the issue but not that it would go away. Now for it to be said to remove the steel screw and replace it with nylon is kinda funny too. Now the rolls are reversed here. If i see it corectly it would be a nylon ram to an aluminum extender. If thats the case the nylon ram would be the one getting worn out faster.... It could be that i dont get it cause i dont have one here to look at but thats how i read it....

Cy

[Chris Nearchos]

I like this statement. Sounds like to me he saying it will work but, we did this and it works better but not on the frames we sent you. Then says what we sent you isnt what we should have sent you but we sent it anyways? And now you should go out and get somethign else. (Thats still wont work)

First let me say that Chris is right. You cant expect a peice of aluminum to hold up to a peice of steel of any kind. It will never happen under those conditions. As for how long it will take theres no real way to tell but it will fail after a while. Now for it to be stated that the part they used had been cleaned up a bit to reduce said problem means he at least noticed a problem. But to not have done that on all the frames he sent out was lazy. He did mention how you could help the issue but not that it would go away. Now for it to be said to remove the steel screw and replace it with nylon is kinda funny too. Now the rolls are reversed here. If i see it corectly it would be a nylon ram to an aluminum extender. If thats the case the nylon ram would be the one getting worn out faster.... It could be that i dont get it cause i dont have one here to look at but thats how i read it....

Cy

you are correct CY....least that is how i am reading it also.

-Chris

[Mongoose]

Would anyone want to send me their already tuned G-force frame so i could try it out, i'll make a vid and all. i just wanna shoot it and see how it feels and works...i promise i will not adjust, move or take apart anything.

i have pretty fast fingers so i could really put it to the test.

anyone



EDIT: i wont keep it for more then two days and i'll pay shipping both ways....insured

[Hilltop Customs]

I do not understand what you are suggesting here.

are you are suggesting them to put grease on the sear extended where it is being hit? something that will fall off due to gravity and force of being hit? and has to be put back on after every round of play?

or to put grease on the axel of the sear? which would gunk up the sear pivot point and actually not do anything to slow down the swinging of the sear/sear extender because that the speed is set by the on/off of the valve and bolt.

Hes saying that as the ram extends, the impact point on the extender changes due to the extender is traveling in an arc and the ram is traveling in a straight line. This slight movement of impact point causes friction, and the resultant wear can be solved with grease. At least thats what I got from it....but the real problem isnt the small movement or the friction, so grease isnt going to do much from the repeated impact deformations since it is a fluid and will just be pushed out of the way.

IDK what Garf is referring to with the refrence to set screws? Is there a setscrew in the end of the ram which is used to contact the sear extender? If so, as Garf said, replacing it with a nylon setscrew is a short term solution since it will wear out very quickly, but wont damage the extender. A set screw in the ram tip doesnt really make sense since it greatly reduces the contact area with the extender(and increases wear)....I might be confused about this, but the pics look like set screw impacts so it must be true??

I'm amazed no one has asked this yet but, Garf, what damage didnt the tickler LPR cause to the sear extender? Bend? Break? accelerated wear damage on the face of the extender?



Back to the LPR issue.
When did pre-orders for the LPR start being accepted?

1.B The LPR can not be preorder at this time until it is ready for production.

10/10/07

[TwilightG]

IDK what Garf is referring to with the refrence to set screws?

The set screw acts as a sear stop behind the sear arm/extender to prevent over travel. This screw is what is causing the black mark shown in Looper's pics. The pic which shows wear from the ram is on the other side of the extender and kind of looks like scratches (if there is indeed some gouging, it's not that obvious in the pics)

[Chris Nearchos]

Hes saying that as the ram extends, the impact point on the extender changes due to the extender is traveling in an arc and the ram is traveling in a straight line. This slight movement of impact point causes friction, and the resultant wear can be solved with grease. At least thats what I got from it....but the real problem isnt the small movement or the friction, so grease isnt going to do much from the repeated impact deformations since it is a fluid and will just be pushed out of the way.

thats what i was thinking with the 1st thing i was thinking he was saying from that post of mine. but like i was saying and as you said, the grease would only get pushed to the side and fall off if not already done so by gravity. resulting in no good result from using it other then a pile of crud at the bottom of the frame.

and i know that the piston will "slide" down from initial point of contact, that is why you would use something like a flat head carriage bolt or even something like a two pin automotive body cover plate. and yes, both of those can be found small enough for this issue.


-Chris

[Chris Nearchos]

The set screw acts as a sear stop behind the sear arm/extender to prevent over travel. This screw is what is causing the black mark shown in Looper's pics. The pic which shows wear from the ram is on the other side of the extender and kind of looks like scratches (if there is indeed some gouging, it's not that obvious in the pics)

hmm, must be something added/modded after the manual was done up. i am not seeing that anywhere behind the sear extender.


i do have one question for all the other users/owners. how are the two areas for the trigger stops for yoru frames? the upper trigger stop and the lower trigger stop.

-Chris

[insixdays777]

AO lets lay off the he said she she said about this homebrew vs Gforce. And focus on the problems that face alot of us about this frame:

PROBLEM:

1) No LPR - Garth is working on it and has been answering questions and providing updates so things are moving in the correct direction.

2) The Sear Extender issue - the wear issue is bothersome and will be an issue with the long term durability of the extender/frame. Will Garth's LPR help? YES. Does not using a tickler help? YES. Does running a PPS Rock help? YES

But the sear extender still will wear...

Is there a better solution out there? A long term solution? A better sear extender? A better sear?

AO has conquered bigger problems!

[Hilltop Customs]

The set screw acts as a sear stop behind the sear arm/extender to prevent over travel. This screw is what is causing the black mark shown in Looper's pics. The pic which shows wear from the ram is on the other side of the extender and kind of looks like scratches (if there is indeed some gouging, it's not that obvious in the pics)

Thanks, I didnt notice there was a stop behind the extender to stop over travel....was wondering why there were marks on both sides of the extender.

This makes me even more curious to how the tickler was causing damage? I originally thought there was no stop besides the sear travel limit...if that was the case then over pressurization would bend or snap the extender off, but with a stop in place thats much less likely to happen. I guess it could still happen at initial impact of the ram and sear.

[Chris Nearchos]

Does not using a tickler help?

if you fix the issue with the sear setup, you will take away almost all the pains of using a tickler (other then losing a few shots of the tank). if you want an easy quick easy solution, get a harden strike plate onto the sear and you will be golden to go. (ie, bolt head, cover plate, luke's solution, or a new sear)

***EDIT***
cheap easy solution for the issue on the back side of the extender: (used on the screw...not the extender). just use an epoxy or super glue to put onto the set screw. will also give a bit of "bounce back" like a micro switch.



**end edit***

-Chris

[skyless]

just checked my sear extender out after 400 shots or so (a few games of play) and it has a pretty noticable depression from the set screw. Hardly any wear from the ram. Defiently need a good solution for this, i cant see this extender lasting too long.

[Hilltop Customs]

how much of the sear stop set screw is exposed? Is there enough room for a 8-32(think thats the size mentioned earlier) nut to be thrown and loctite'd on? a larger surface area wont cause nearly as much damage....I hope the setscrew is normal to the contacting sear extender surface

might be able to get away with an plastic acorn nut....that would cut down on noise too. Sand down the nose of the acorn nut to the correct length and thread it onto exposed set screw. I hope theres enough room, because other than installing an internal ram stop, expanding the impact surface area of the setscrew would be the way to solve the problem. Lower pressure would also solve the issue, but that sacrifices performance no matter what LPR your dealing with.

[insixdays777]

I am going to run to Ace hardware today...they should have a lot of cheap options to fix the issues...I think the main issues is with the rear sear stop screw, rubber bumper or nylon screw tip should fix it. I also think Coating the sear extender in DIP (rubber tool "paint") will stop the piston from wearing on the extender.

I will be sure to post up my findings.

[flyingpootang]

You can reverse the set screw and insert a piece of o-ring.....
Click on pics to enlarge:

[warbeak2099]

Lower pressure would also solve the issue, but that sacrifices performance no matter what LPR your dealing with.

Not really? If you have a higher volume LPR, you can cycle just as fast, just as consistently at lower pressures. That's the whole point. If you have an LPR that runs consistently at 25psi, then you're going to drastically reduce possibility of damaging the sear extender while at the same time retaining performance.

[Chris Nearchos]

Not really? If you have a higher volume LPR, you can cycle just as fast, just as consistently at lower pressures. That's the whole point. If you have an LPR that runs consistently at 25psi, then you're going to drastically reduce possibility of damaging the sear extender while at the same time retaining performance.

no, hilltop is saying that if the piston is operating at a lower pressure that it will hit the sear extender with less force cause less damage to be done. BUT if you lower the pressure on the piston, just because of how it works, you will lose speed and performance of the piston. and i support hilltops statement on that.

in the end with the whole debate on lprs (shelf product, tickler, garfs custom), doesnt matter how it works (as in the how much volume over the pressure). it honestly comes down to the sear extender being too soft. if you fix the sear extender issue, it doesnt matter what lpr you use. cause then you are at the point of being like it doesnt matter if you hit it with a pin or a hammer head, as long as the reaction time (pressure and force) of the piston is set correctly to make the correct reaction, you are good to go.

heck, if garf would fix the issue with a better sear extender (even if you ladies and gents had to pay for it), it would fix pretty much all issues of the of this whole thing and make the frame what he claimed it to be. the best p-mag aftermarket frame out their.


but i guess since garf "gave his blessing to AO" to "fix" his product, i guess its up AO to fix it as they see fit. but you ladies and gents should look into luke and his solutions to sear extending. it would be well worth it if garf doesnt want to step up to the plate.

-Chris

[Hilltop Customs]

Not really? If you have a higher volume LPR, you can cycle just as fast, just as consistently at lower pressures. That's the whole point. If you have an LPR that runs consistently at 25psi, then you're going to drastically reduce possibility of damaging the sear extender while at the same time retaining performance.

A higher flow LPR doesnt change the internal orifice size of the 3 way which the air has to be pushed through. Higher pressure means faster reaction time through the 3 way, no way to get around it. The benefit of lowering the pressure and additional 10-20 psi is? maybe and additional 2 or 3 shots per tank?

edit* lowering the pressure would do less damage to the sear extender, but in the end your beating a piece of aluminum onto a small surface area of a setscrew with a tiny hammer TENS of THOUSANDS of times.

continuining edit* solving the problem simply comes back to 1 of 3 things:
1: Lower the forces(pressure) involved until there is no noticeable surface deformation from the impacts. Causmetic damage would be unavoidable, but actual deformation needs to be avoided. Since lowering the pressure has a detremental effect other options need to be considered first.
2: Expand the surface areas involved. Pinch the sear extender between larger surfaces until no deformation is apparent. No real decremental effects, in fact increasing pressure would be feasible.
3: Use a harder sear extender to avoid deformation. Once again increasing pressure above current limits would be an option.

[insixdays777]

in the end with the whole debate on lprs (shelf product, tickler, garfs custom), doesnt matter how it works (as in the how much volume over the pressure). it honestly comes down to the sear extender being too soft. if you fix the sear extender issue, it doesnt matter what lpr you use. cause then you are at the point of being like it doesnt matter if you hit it with a pin or a hammer head, as long as the reaction time (pressure and force) of the piston is set correctly to make the correct reaction, you are good to go.


-Chris

AMEN!

[warbeak2099]

A higher flow LPR doesnt change the internal orifice size of the 3 way which the air has to be pushed through. Higher pressure means faster reaction time through the 3 way, no way to get around it. The benefit of lowering the pressure and additional 10-20 psi is? maybe and additional 2 or 3 shots per tank?

I don't think anyone said anything about efficiency or shots per tank. It's ridiculous to bring it up. Has anyone used the frame with an LPR that can handle 25psi consistently at high rofs? If not, let's wait till Garf finishes his LPR and see if the frame will actually cycle consistently at high rof's with such a low pressure.

[G-Force Tech]

The frames were designed at the time with full sized external LPRs. I also tried the Ticklers but didn't like them so I went back to the larger LPRs.

I have nothing against Ticklers but I am not recommending them on this frame. If you think it makes no difference its up to you to use it.

In order for a sleeper type LPR to work in the grip, a full sized design has to be custom made but in a micro package which in itself has its limits and challenges. I thought at the time everyone wanted a sleeper look but I guess I was wrong.

As for the PSI thing, the frames will fire with no problems with pressures around 25psi. If want higher ROF, the you need to increase the pressure further. This is no where close to the pressure it takes for the Tickler to operate effectively. With a Micro Rock or standard Rock, the actuator is much gentler on the sear extender than a Tickler.

Also by running a Tickler, the MSV-1 valve also requires more finger pressure to operate.

On a DIY frame where a MSV-2 is used, the lever compensates the higher trigger pressure generated to the valve by the Tickler, In our frames, the MSV-1 is directly actuated by the trigger without the lever so having lower pressures to the MSV-1 is important here.

Our frame are the reverse of the DIY frames. DIY use high actuator pressure to trip the sear, and a MSV-2 valve. Ours uses a custom sear extender that corrects the leverage point to trip the sear, and requires a high volume LPR to keep lower operating pressures to the actuator and MSV-1 valve.

Our frames do use less air but regardless, the MSV-1 or MSV-2 still expells valuable air into the atmosphere each time you pull the trigger. The E Mag is still the best way for boosting ROF without consuming more air.

Garf

[Hilltop Customs]

I don't think anyone said anything about efficiency or shots per tank. It's ridiculous to bring it up. Has anyone used the frame with an LPR that can handle 25psi consistently at high rofs? If not, let's wait till Garf finishes his LPR and see if the frame will actually cycle consistently at high rof's with such a low pressure.

My point has nothing to do with the efficiency, my point is: what is there to gain by lowering the pressure? other than to avoid damaging a product which could have been easily designed to withstand the conditions of higher pressure abuse.