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Thread: Crown Point Barrel Discussion

  1. #1
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    Crown Point Barrel Discussion

    AO,

    At first I was worried but you passed the test well. I was at dinner with Swarm and one of the players commented that AO was not a good place to get feed back because everyone there was a Mag drone. While he mean it in a nice way he did have a point. I didn't have a good way to prove to him that he was wrong until I came across the question about the 8" Crown Point Barrel and started to reply. The reply turned into a test to prove my point, that collectively you all are NOT ALL ONE MIND.

    As you can see from the overwhelming response and the variety of thoughts that virtually every angle was covered. I apologize that I had to do this to you but think of it as a wake up call to make you more aware of what goes on in the marketing world. In addition you have upped your status in the eyes of non AO people. Your responses of all kinds go even further to enhance my respect for the people on this forum.

    For those who think this is a love fest just read the posts, if I can't snow ball you with the best I have to offer no one can. Good job all!!

    If you did buy a barrel we will refund your money. If you want to keep it I have instructed Marcia to include a free parts kit with every barrel.

    I want to continue this thread with a discussion of the various aspects of the "sales pitch" starting below.

    AGD

  2. #2
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    First of all do you think that anything I said was any different than what other manufacturers would say?

    AGD

  3. #3
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    All I know is that I am selling fish-crap sucker-uppers for 40 bucks a pop.
    Visa and Mastercard Preferred.
    Brent Jackson, PFB.
    I don't practice anymore: I'm just good in a natural, vicious sort of way.

    Will you please tell your boobs to quit staring at my eyeballs?

  4. #4
    Tom, that was the best impersonation of Smart Parts iv'e seen to date.

    DONT EVER DO THAT AGAIN!!! You scared the crap out of me.
    Did you hear about the new european weapons contracts? France is going to make the wooden sticks Spain making the little white flags

  5. #5
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    Actually tom,

    You didn't stray much from what a lot of companies say. You were saying you're the best, "this is what works", "a new revolution in paintball", "the most advanced out there", and other companies suck...

    .
    Good Traders:
    Tunaman, K-villeplayer, Magman007, Mastersconi, Jon/xpm, Kenndogg

    My feedback if you've dealt with me, leave some...

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  6. #6
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    Tom if you don't think there was a large proportion of people there that were blindly following you, and buying it because it was you and AGD, and ignoring all others who were trying to say otherwise then we were reading a different thread.

    Simon

  7. #7
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    Yes Manike that was true, BUT all bases were covered which resulted in the whole thing being "up in the air"

    AGD

  8. #8
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    That thread gave me some extra posts so I just played along... I don't consier myself a mag drone... YET... I see that a lot of people just jumped for the crown point when you pulled that off.

  9. #9
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    I read all that and was just like, "what happend with TK?"

    I found it hilarious that a lot of people were really serious into ordering them right away like it was the best kept secret in the world. Thank you for the humor

  10. #10
    Originally posted by AGD
    First of all do you think that anything I said was any different than what other manufacturers would say?

    AGD
    The problem is our percieved "connection" to you via this website. I have never read an e-mail from Dave Y. or Bob L. The Gardner boys have never posted on any forum I am on.

    With that in mind. The AO perception of your products is tainted in a way that no other company can duplicate at this point. What you said was exactly the way that any other company would, however, coming from you it is like hearing the Pope say that he's got to have a break for some doobies and a conjugal visit.

    While I agree that people will have diverging opinions, and that eventually they will get ferreted out and the truth will be known (taking in to account the Roswell exception policy), you only need a short time of massive sales to get your foot in the door. Once that is in place, you can put out product on strength of previous success alone.

    anyways.. I am rambling...
    back to your regularly scheduled program

    Banzaimf
    minimag #1321

    Xmag #267

  11. #11
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    I could tell you why people bought it, its a $20 barrel!

    It was funny though.

  12. #12
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    Really? I wonder how many people ordered barrels or were seriously considering it, that wouldn't have if you had just mentioned that they were for sale. Many people here hang on your every word. Most even apologised before contradicting you or pointing out where you contradicted yourself.

    Many were hesitant or didn't want to contradict you at first.

    If you'd have stuck with it a lot of people here would have followed through and bought the product and started hyping it elsewhere. Just because they want to believe you and that everything you do is the best. People were starting other threads and starting to say that their barrel is good, or that heck it's worth 20$. It goes to show you you could sell a product or an idea or hype here that wouldn't necessarily be bought elsewhere. It would be very complacent to think that the opinions here aren't to quite a large extent biased to you and your products.

    manike

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    Why couldnt you just lie to us, and say it was true. I wanted that to be true really bad. Well dont do this agian plz because you got me all exited, and I told you I was stupid (even though I make sure im getting actual good stuff from other companys, I trust AGD). And is that the barrel that is on the stock mags. I gota question as well. If I cut my freak (because the porting in it is like a razor)porting off will it affect the accuracy because it wouldnt be a perfect cut? PS if I buy the barrel now will i still get the parts kit
    Marc

  14. #14
    Originally posted by irbodden
    I could tell you why people bought it, its a $20 barrel!

    It was funny though.
    True, i dont even think you can get aluminum tubes for that little.

    $60 would have been a real test.

    Heck they are so cheap that im thinking of picking one of those things up as a fish crap sucker upper and as a peice of automag history.

  15. #15
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    Nice

    Originally posted by manike
    Really? I wonder how many people ordered barrels or were seriously considering it, that wouldn't have if you had just mentioned that they were for sale. Many people here hang on your every word. Most even apologised before contradicting you or pointing out where you contradicted yourself.

    Many were hesitant or didn't want to contradict you at first.

    If you'd have stuck with it a lot of people here would have followed through and bought the product and started hyping it elsewhere. Just because they want to believe you and that everything you do is the best. People were starting other threads and starting to say that their barrel is good, or that heck it's worth 20$. It goes to show you you could sell a product or an idea or hype here that wouldn't necessarily be bought elsewhere. It would be very complacent to think that the opinions here aren't to quite a large extent biased to you and your products.

    manike

  16. #16
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    First off, I don't like being used.

    I bought the barrel because I want to try the stock barrel and figured it had to be worth $20. Would you be willing to put the stock mini mag barrels in the online store for $20?

    As far as what you wrote. I think it went over what other advertisements say. However, not by much. They all make claims they can't support. They just usually don't say so much all at once. In addition, you have a reputation of backing up what you claim with testing.

    One last thing. I have always wondered if ANY type of hole, port etc. does ANY good at all in a barrel (those crown points included)? My stroker (fixed barrel, no porting of any kind) is very accurate. So, do those thing work?

    P.S., Yes, I still want the barrel. I didn't buy it thinking it was the end all be all of barrels.


    Hey Hitech your starting to sound like me! - AGD
    Hitech is the man.... - Blennidae
    The only Hitech Lubricant

  17. #17
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    Law i dont know what you are talking about, Tom is and everything he makes is the best. And is AGD planing to release a barrel, I mean for Tom to do all of those expencive tests just to prove some one wrong, doesnt seem quite right

  18. #18
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    WOW, that was awsome... All I thought was if this is SO great, why's it only $20?? I've been taken on alot of misc. garbage in the paintball industry but this wasn't one of them. I think what Tom did was a great thing for alot of the young influental players that get caught up in all the hype.

    Lesson: Don't beleive everything you read/hear.

    Thanks for the lesson/entertainment.
    Roayl Assassin

  19. #19
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    If it helps any of you to feel better, we Mods were taken in at first, but then came to the conclusion that Tom was hanging around the steel door at the end of the hall during more military ball testing! (figured he took one too many to the head...)

  20. #20
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    heck I thought Tom had been tipping back 1 too many when he posted that

  21. #21
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    Originally posted by manike
    Really? I wonder how many people ordered barrels or were seriously considering it, that wouldn't have if you had just mentioned that they were for sale.
    I can't tell you how many, but I know of three. Myself and the two friends i suggested buy one (I told them, hey it's only $20 and will make a good "backup" barrel if nothing else).

  22. #22
    Originally posted by manike
    Really? I wonder how many people ordered barrels or were seriously considering it, that wouldn't have if you had just mentioned that they were for sale. Many people here hang on your every word. Most even apologised before contradicting you or pointing out where you contradicted yourself.

    Many were hesitant or didn't want to contradict you at first.

    If you'd have stuck with it a lot of people here would have followed through and bought the product and started hyping it elsewhere. Just because they want to believe you and that everything you do is the best. People were starting other threads and starting to say that their barrel is good, or that heck it's worth 20$. It goes to show you you could sell a product or an idea or hype here that wouldn't necessarily be bought elsewhere. It would be very complacent to think that the opinions here aren't to quite a large extent biased to you and your products.

    manike

    Trust has a lot to do with it too. In my 6 year customer relationship with AGD they have always been straightforward with me. So I have learned to trust them.

    So I suspect alot of people would buy the barrel out of sheer trust for AGD and thier reputation for being honest.

    For example:

    If your best friend has been honest to you for 6 years you develop a high level of trust for him/her. In cases you don't even question what he says anymore. Because you know what he/she has done in the past has always been in your best intrest. So if he says, "hey bud I need some money my grandma is dying in the hospital" you wouldent even think twice.

    Its a diffrent situation if you meet some stranger on the street and you start listening to what he says. You have NO idea what his motives are or how he acts. And he decides to sweet talk you into giving him some money. What are you gonna do if he says "hey bud I need some money my grandma is dying in the hospital." You are a lot less likely to buy into it.

  23. #23
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    But seriously...

    No, your post sounded like an obvious joke, not advertisement.
    Some things that DID sound familiar were reasons WHY the barrel is better, such as airflow transition. The Freak system, which I own, is sold along a similiar premis of adjusting bore size to ball size for better consistancy.
    This idea, along with the pitch of smooth transition from barrel to cruel world, may very well be true. Or untrue. They both make sense, but We The Public really have no way of knowing for sure unless we are willing to do some stringent, controlled testing. Even IF we tested them thouroughly, who is to say those variables were unrelated to accuracy, and the real solution isn't something like barrel length?
    I have been in paintball now since 1986, and in various tournies (including NPPL) since 1995. I can't even begin to estimate how many cases of paintballs I have shot. I have owned lots of Cockers, Lots of Mags, a couple of Angels, Phantoms, and countless other guns. You would think I would know the EXACT reason my current gun is better than the rest.
    I do not.
    WE (I) buy things because of marketing, and hopefully my experience.
    For instance, I have gotten a lot of flack for using aftermarket parts on my MAG, and most the people here love stock parts and have great luck with them.
    My stock MAGS sucked. It took regulators, Z-valves, forgrip extenders, 2-finger triggers and ANS bolts to make it competitive with Angels. I don't know every reason why, but my MAG is a better gun than a Stock Mag. No question. It is more consistant (Palmer Stab?),has a lighter, shorter trigger (Z-valve?), and is VERY easy on paint(ANS Bolt?). Manufactures make claims. I buy on those claims, plus testimonials from players, like this forum. You have to make an educated choice.
    How do I know for sure that the Intelliframe is better than my Benchmark? You Say it is, but is that the truth? Is it worth twice the amount as a Benchmark? Well, these people say it is, so I am going to buy one.
    I realise I am going off topic a little here, but I want to illustrate a point you have made about your marketing.
    It is this: AGD has a great reputation, and people will buy based on your reputation on building good products, and most of us believe because you do a lot of emperical testing, you know what is best.
    Brent Jackson, PFB.

  24. #24
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    Originally posted by manike
    <snip> Most even apologised before contradicting you or pointing out where you contradicted yourself.

    <SNIP> It would be very complacent to think that the opinions here aren't to quite a large extent biased to you and your products.

    manike
    On the first point, if you're going to tell something that full of it, do it with a smile. Make them feel good about. My mom, well, she didn't teach me that, but I'm sure it's a good idea.

    Second, The point to prove was that AO is NOT ALL ONE MIND. Not everyone agreed that Tom was right. A good chunk of people disagreed. I'd even guess that more than half diagreed.... So AO might not be a bad place for feedback (but.... you need 40 sets of data for a good info, don't cha know )

    But this wasn't a very good test, Yes, Tom tried his best "Marketing Hat" tricks on us... but that's not the best way he could lead us on. If he were to present an idea like the superbolt, and used totally wrong logicial conclusions... Say making a AutoMag bolt out of lead and saying increased mass would slow the bolt opening, and the increased force of the air behind the bolt (to open the more mass-full bolt) would cause the metered airflow to be more consistant, (and we all have more "consistant = more accurate" burned in our brains) so it would reduce breaks and be more accurate... That would be a true test.

    Tom,
    I don't listen to much marketing, but I think you did a good job at it... And shown that you're really an engineer. Must marketing that I do see, is always consistant with itself. Some of your stuff contradicted itself. But otherwise, very passable good. Fooled a lot of people
    Shaun Nelson --- old, fat, slow.... did I mention lazy? I ate all the pies
    I disable .signatures Apparently you do not.

  25. #25
    Tom I think BOTH of the crown point threads should be made classics as a refrence to teach people how easily they can be duped by highfalutin marketing tactics that most other paintball companies use.

  26. #26
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    The funny thing about the visual descriptions in the pitch were that I beilieved them to be true in the 80's. I was convinced and sold them with that story. We actually had a pretty hot barrel way back then. No one liked the ringing though....

    AGD

  27. #27
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    there is the lesson I spoke of

  28. #28
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    Talking So...

    Does this mean that the barrel isn't really the best in the world?!?!



    Mike
    PbNation.com Admeanistrator

  29. #29
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    So... does the barrel work like he said or not???
    Why go to the light, when darkness has its warmth too....
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  30. #30
    shartley Guest
    Dangerous game you just played.

    Would any of the other manufacturers say similar things…. Probably, maybe, who cares? The important thing is would YOU? I know I wouldn’t.

    For me, Marketing NEVER gets me to purchase a product, period. Marketing is about getting your product in front of the consumer. It is to let them know it is there. A Salesman SELLS the product, your marketing should not have to. Your post was not marketing at all… and you did not see that? It was salesmanship…. Like a snake oil salesman at that. But it was FAR from marketing.

    When you see a commercial on TV, do they SELL you the truck? Do they go into all its features? Or do they only touch on a couple, if any, and simply provide you with a good display format for their product? Then you are directed how to get further information if your interest has been gotten. THAT is marketing.

    My goodness Tom… who the heck have you been listening to? Do you want to market your products or sell them…. Marketing LEADS to the sale, but is NOT the sale.

    Example: Mountain Due

    The product is Marketed with HYPE. But do you think anyone believes that a can of Mountain Due will allow you to jump out of an airplane with a mountain bike and do all those James Bond type stuff? Heck no.. it is ENTERTAINMENT. And the consumer knows it.

    Example: Coke

    Does anyone actually think the Polar Bear is REAL? Does anyone actually think it plays with the seal and shares a bottle of Coke with it?

    Example: Chevy Blazer

    Does anyone think when the family rides home in their black Chevy Blazer and avoids all those obstacles, that ANY of them were REAL?

    I could list products all night, but you get the point. Marketing and SALESMANSHIP are two entirely different things, and are used for two entirely different purposes…. I will say it again, Marketing LEADS to Sales, but is NOT the sale.
    And what you can get away with (and are EXPECTED to do) in Marketing, is FAR from what is needed in the Sales Phase of actually selling your product.

    And with this in mind, it is clear that your post could not be farther from Marketing than White is from Black. You did not prove that people on AO would not fall for HYPE marketing, or marketing at all… and as for your Marketing Hat… you never even put one on. You SOLD them on the idea, you did not market it.

    It is the same misconception you had with the Ad you wanted to run. You made a Brochure or Flyer, but NOT an Ad. You are confusing too many different aspects of successful business and promotion/sales. And this is unfortunate, since it seems you don’t have anyone who either CAN or is willing to tell you the difference.

    What did your whole thread prove? Absolutely nothing close to what you think it did. It proved that you can SELL some people outright, confuse others, and not even come close to fooling a few more. It also showed that your “Boys” either did not have the guts to stand up and say “This is BS”, or did not know the difference. I saw a whole lot of misdirection and conversation detouring going on.. in directions OTHER than saying you were lying.

    But it proved nothing positive about AO or your Marketing skills… since the overwhelming majority was either fooled outright, or were confused at best.. as well as those who said they did not care.. Tom said to buy it, so even if he is not telling the truth, it MUST be a good product anyway. This is not marketing, and it is NOT clear and independent thinking.

    I am afraid this did you more harm than good, but you may not know it. I will also not get into it further…. It is obvious that you are either continuously receiving poor to outright BAD advice, are getting NO advice, or don’t know when to ASK for advice… this was a clear indication of that. I am disappointed it even took place.

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