Crown Point Barrel Discussion

[Riotz]

Funny, but good test.

If you would have just made the subject "$20 Crown Point Barrel" I bet you would have sold old.


shartley, don't be so harse.

[Russ]

Tom,

As I said in my original post, I felt insulted by the way you "talked down" to the members here. Maybe you prooved some point to your goomba's, but you've lost some of my respect.

And talking about hyped up "junk", my superbolt sits at the factory, and no one there seems to know what to do about them. It was shipped .015" too long, and broke crazy amounts of paint. I have already felt as if I was "taken" by the hype of a less than useful product, which I bought because of AGD's reputation for selling only well-tested and quality products.

I have also pre-ordered a 4500 Flatline system from Drop Zone. I will call and cancel the order tommorrow. My faith in AGD products AND attitudes is changing. I will go with a proven 4500psi air system.

Russ

[FooTemps]

Russ,

Name one other product that performed as poorly as the superbolt... Yeah, that's right, the wire nubbin. With that fixed we only have one bad part... how can you change with ONE bad part? Almost all companies mess up once and a while...

[Blennidae]

Originally posted by AGD
AO,

At first I was worried but you passed the test well. I was at dinner with Swarm and one of the players commented that AO was not a good place to get feed back because everyone there was a Mag drone. While he mean it in a nice way he did have a point. I didn't have a good way to prove to him that he was wrong until I came across the question about the 8" Crown Point Barrel and started to reply. The reply turned into a test to prove my point, that collectively you all are NOT ALL ONE MIND.

AGD

Mr.Kaye,
I don't think what you did really proved your point the Swarm player brought up. You took a well known item, with less than stellar performance and went about "selling" it in a method different than your normal mode of business.

Many members noticed that you were acting differently and took it to mean you were joking/were not really serious.

I think to truly prove the point you would have to come up with a fictional product you know would make ZERO difference on performance, and "sell" it in your normal manner. If the masses followed the "word of Tom" without question, then we are all drones. Someone (hopefully more than one) would have to stand up against your claims, and win over the crowd.

Unfortunately it seems it might not really be worth the experiment. Even this more obvious one seems to have gotten out of hand.

Just my opinion...

[Miscue]

Originally posted by Army
If it helps any of you to feel better, we Mods were taken in at first, but then came to the conclusion that Tom was hanging around the steel door at the end of the hall during more military ball testing! (figured he took one too many to the head...)

Not all of us. I recognized it as pigeon crap immediately.

BTW, this was a good exercise. I think the only critics were those who got duped... It's a good eye opener for some... you can see how fallible your own precepts and opinions can really be, and the difficulties in assessing things that are not easily understandable - although naively you may think they may be. A lot of people don't take well to this idea, and often take offense... too bad for them.

Think beyond the box.

[AGD]

Russ,

I am very sorry you feel that way. Yes your bolt sits here because we had ONE bolt that was boiled, break. The 4500 systems are sitting here too while we test a half dozen for creep and flow. With the way things are going we are trying to be extra sure. Our current feedback from the forum tells us that if the bolts are going to break it will be in the first 500 shots. We are contemplating shooting every one 500 times.

I have noticed from other posts that you were on the edge because your son is shooting his cocker without hassles while you break paint. Because you have a control right next to you I had you targeted to try one of the new configurations in your Emag.

Maybe I did the wrong thing, and maybe it upset people. My comeback to that is, if I did the same thing every other manufacturer does I wouldn't even be here talking to you. This forum can hurt me more than it can help. The superbolt recall sure pointed that out.

If AGD has failed you then I don't deserve your respect. I know I am sitting here at 3:30 in the morning reading this post because I think what you and everyone else here has to say is important. If you still intend to leave, I understand completely. If you want to give us one more chance you can test the new setup.

Thanks,

Tom

[timebomb]

I don't understand how anyone can be po'd at Tom for playing a little `joke` on the users...I thought it was pretty funny and had a good laugh at both posts. If you guys take it farther then that, well then, you have to get off the computer and look at the real world. There are more companies screwing people over then ever, and to look at this satire of sorts as some sort of insult, you haven't been around long enough.

Mike

[cphilip]

Originally posted by Miscue


Not all of us. I recognized it as pigeon crap immediately.

Yes me too and posted as such. I thought he had truly gone nuts. Now I am uncertain as to if my suspicions were true...

[beam]

I still don't see what everyone is all upset about. You know that what Tom posted isn't his true self...right? Hence "putting on hat"

He didn't do this to get everyone convinced that the Crown Point is the best barrel and then go buy one. He did it to see if we would all just blindly rally behind him unconditionally. It could be said that we are a biased group here.

Not everyone on this board just numbly follows what AGD says. Good for us.

[ben_JD]

Well, this has certainly turned into an interesting situation. I was one of the several folks who read Tom's post and really felt as if the site had been hacked or someone got their hands on AGD's password and posted the crown point message. Then, when I looked at the store and saw the barrel, I felt as if something were amiss (coupled with the fact that the barrel was only $20). That all having been said, I was one of the folks who actually bought the barrel. First, I need a new barrel. Second, I knew the crown point to be a good barrel before this entire marketing scheme began. Third, it was only $20.

As for being mislead by AGD, I do have to say that I am a little uneasy with the way it played out. I understand the point he has made and appreciate it. In fact, AGD has been the one voice that consistently has told all to question everything that you hear; and along that vein, he remains consistent. My uneasiness comes into play when you consider some situations of long-time (and short-time) 'Mag users. We have ascertained the trustworthiness of this company and Tom Kaye as a person over the last decade (for me) and until now have had the luxury of not needing to question the motivation of every statement uttered by AGD; we have already made the determination that the source is trustworthy and can dive into the meat of the statement. Temporarily, at least, we are disavowed of this luxury.

I'm not upset with the company nor am I boycotting any product.

Furthermore, I stand by my crown-point barrel order. AGD, I expect it in the mail shortly.

[Riotz]

Originally posted by ben_JD
AGD, I expect it in the mail shortly.

Don't forget about your free parts kit.

[lazyrider77]

"We The Public really have no way of knowing for sure unless we are willing to do some stringent, controlled testing. Even IF we tested them thouroughly, who is to say those variables were unrelated to accuracy, and the real solution isn't something like barrel length?"
I think Drivers point is really a good one. This should be a warning to everyone out there who jumps on the Freak Kit bandwagon and throws bore size into every arguement. There is no "proof" of bore size/accuracy relation. Smart Parts may be doing the same thing Tom did, only they aren't going to admit it. Or, they may actually believe in the concept, that still doesn't make it valid. To me, it is still just a myth.

[beam]

Hmmm. I must be missing something. People act as if this was genuine Tom K. and now their trust in him is tarnished. My trust on the other hand has been strengthened. Tom put us, AO, to the sheep test and we passed. Granted, some of us went baaaa, baaaaa. And you know what the funny thing is, how he went about administering this test is something the REST of the paintball industry does ALL THE TIME. But, we don't boycott them or get all grumpy about it.

Tom...is it just me? I didn't think this thing had anything to do with barrels or marketing.

[OhMyAMoose]

Hahahahahaha, I got a kick out of that thread. I just knew Tom was up to something. I would just like to know how many people orded the barrel. I bet a good number did because it seems like people will do anything Tom says. Now I cant blame them because everything Tom has done seems to be correct. I am glad Tom did this because we need a good wake up call. We need something to keep us in check every now and then.
Thank Tom

[diehard]

I agree with Shartley, this is a dangerous game you just played, Tom... But, I think deciding not to buy from AGD is an extreme reaction.

In my opinion there is enough crap in this world that we must wade through to make this little test anything but funny. It is a good lesson. However, I think the motive behind the lesson was dumb. The whole thing was a bad idea to prove a point. You know what you know about AO'ers, Tom, and you shouldn't feel the need to prove anything about them to anyone. Stick to proving your products are what you say they are (in the opinion of most AO'ers, the best). But it did show us a few things. So, in that sense, your test wasn't all bad.

You would've done better to simply tell people on AO that they need to check everything out, even coming from AGD, and not just blindly beleive everything they hear or read. That would've been more consistant with my perception of you and AGD. Just say it straight.

Russ-
Order your flatline, 'cause it's the best. Don't sweat the BS. Don't let this foolishness stand in the way of getting a truely good product. You know that AGD's valves are the best in the business.

Posted by MantisMag:
...people trying to prove that fictional things could actually happen...

You forgot to include the theory of evolution in your list.

[Dragoon]

AGD, I think this was a good eerie as a bit of a wake-up call to let us all know we should questions what we read on the net (regardless of perceived source). However, I couldn't help but think of the story "Never Cry Wolf" as soon as I started reading this thread.

I haven't checked, but if you haven't deleted the dummy post I think you should. I hate for it to come back at you later.

Douglas.

[BradPalooza]

I tend to agree with Miscue's post that the people that got upset are the one's that blindly accepted it as truth.

The fact of the matter is, there are alot of drones out there. Be they followers of mag, cocker, or angel. For example, how many people are STILL saying that cockers shoot further/straighter/flatter than anything else?

The masses here have the unprecedented opportunity of being able to talk to the President of a paintball company and actually help influence the designs it's products. But to do that, we need to give him valuable feedback. Not just say "Yes Tom, it's perfect".

I say, good job - I hope this helps to get people to start thinking on their own.
-Brad

[bofh]

Originally posted by Dragoon
However, I couldn't help but think of the story "Never Cry Wolf" as soon as I started reading this thread.

Douglas.

Hmmm . I was thinking more along the lines of "The Emperors' New Clothes."

[joeyjoe367]

That's Strange... I was thinking of 3 blind Mice...

[tremis]

I was just waiting for somebody to post that their friend shot them and the end of the barrel with the vents shot off and smashed through his goggles and implanted itself in his sinus cavity. Of course the friend threw the parts away.
Oh I do love this forum.

Tremis

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by diehard
I agree with Shartley, this is a dangerous game you just played, Tom... But, I think deciding not to buy from AGD is an extreme reaction.

In my opinion there is enough crap in this world that we must wade through to make this little test anything but funny. It is a good lesson. However, I think the motive behind the lesson was dumb. The whole thing was a bad idea to prove a point. You know what you know about AO'ers, Tom, and you shouldn't feel the need to prove anything about them to anyone. Stick to proving your products are what you say they are (in the opinion of most AO'ers, the best). But it did show us a few things. So, in that sense, your test wasn't all bad.

You would've done better to simply tell people on AO that they need to check everything out, even coming from AGD, and not just blindly beleive everything they hear or read. That would've been more consistant with my perception of you and AGD. Just say it straight.

Russ-
Order your flatline, 'cause it's the best. Don't sweat the BS. Don't let this foolishness stand in the way of getting a truely good product. You know that AGD's valves are the best in the business.


You forgot to include the theory of evolution in your list.

If your mom told you not to play on the stairs cause you can fall down and hurt your head would you listen? Now, If you actually fell down and hurt youre head would you listen more?

Alot more people listen more avidly when hey make thier own mistakes. Your mom can say it 15 million times but in the other case it only takes ONE time time to teach you a lesson.

I still think that this was a GREAT learning expereience to all that participated. This should be on display as an example of how EASILY people can get duped by marketing that occurs in the paintball world. This is why I URGE tom to put these 2 posts in the classics.

[manike]

Originally posted by Butterfingers
I still think that this was a GREAT learning expereience to all that participated. This should be on display as an example of how EASILY people can get duped by marketing that occurs in the paintball world.

Is it about people being duped by marketing or by people blindly following Tom and AGD and telling Tom what they think he wants to hear. There is a big difference... He would have gotten a very different result had he posted the same thread on another board unrelated to AGD. Here I'd say 30-40 percent were prepared to comment against him, nearly 50% went with him (just guestimates) elsewhere I would have said 90% would have gone "shut up your full of crap..." I do think if we only look at this board then we are not seeing a true cross section of the market. That is dangerous and what I think this was all about. It wasn't to try a new marketing approach. Tom himself hinted it wasn't in his reply to Shartley.

What if he wasn't marketing a product (and not one we where so many of us obviously new something was up). What if it was a new idea or design and people rather than questioning it, just said 'yeah Tom great I will buy one'... But never did. It's happened with the Z-grip. People say they are desperate for them, 10 turn up and then take 6 months to sell (or something like that). There is more than one way to see what all this is about and what just happened. You need to keep your eyes wide open and be wary at all times.

manike

[Russ]

Just to perhaps clarify a few things...

A) I feel the "joke" Tom played was rude.

B) Superbolts were released for sale before they should've been. 'Nuff said.

C) I choose not to buy a 4500 Flatline because I do not want to be the "Crash Test Dummy". They may work fine, they may have "issues". Ill let someone else find that out.I have less than 100% faith in the product. I will wait and see how they perform in the real world before I fork out the $400 for one. That's my choice. I'm not doing it to "punish" AGD. I'm just trying to get a good reliable product for my $$$.

[cphilip]

Right on Manike!

People... Tom needs your real thoughts not just agreement and suck up. On this site there is far too much of that. Don't be afraid to be skeptical and be different. And for heavens sakes quit crucifying the ones who do! Far too much of that. Disagree with tact and logic. But for God sakes have your own mind about things!

I will repeat my comment to the other Mods yesterday that was in sarcastic intent "...I plan to beg and beg for one and then never buy one..." This indeed happens all the time here.

And from what I saw Manikes statistics are a good estimate. So what good are we to AGD if we go along with everything as gospel? Not much I fear. No..I personally do not think Toms method was as effective as he had hoped nor would I have chosen it. But perhaps in the long run? He might turn out to have caused something to happen that needed too. I am optimistic.

Think about it.

[Paintchucker]

I guess the old saying of let the buyer beware holds true, and always will. My thought was that if this barrel was really that good, they never would have changed the design in the first place. What was BFL for anyway? I was guessing Bold Face Lyers.

Anywho, I was playing around with some stuff. I just bought an Emag, so I am selling off some of my other guns. I am selling my retro valve, so I pulled out my early 1990's minimag valve and put the matching foamie bolt in it. I notice that it has a high pitch ring to it that no longer exists in the newer bolts. So is the singing crown point barrel really available? I was considering getting one just for the heck of it. You get strange looks from other players wondering what that sound is. LOL...

[the JoKeR]

Originally posted by cphilip
So what good are we to AGD if we go along with everything as gospel

You mean there's no "special" KoolAid in this cult? I'm turning in my robe!

Marketing can be evil! Welcome to my world.....

[FaSSt]

I was initially a little mystified and disturbed by the thread.

Then I realized that the basic problem, as eventually demonstrated by the thread, has nothing to do with Tom Kaye, AGD, or even paintball. Instead, the problem stems from the basic inability of most people to read and think CRITICALLY. Evaluate everything, regardless of the source. Young people generally have not yet full learned this lesson yet, but older readers have no excuse for not being able to identify what was going on.

If you read carefully, you could eventually tell that this was something other than a "normal", factual thread - there was too much rambling, too many issues were skirted, and quite a few provocative statements were thrown around.

In summary - the whole thing was mildly amusing but definitely not malicious. If anything, I think that Tom Kaye actually demonstrated (by creating a parody of their statements) the contempt with which some companies treat their consumers.

I do disagree with Tom Kaye, however. I DO believe that many, many people are VERY DESERVING OF CONTEMPT, because they fail to learn the basic skills necessary to separate truth from lies. Even young adults are included in this - for instance, if some of them actually cared about learning Math, Physics, Philosophy or English (so that they can read critically), they would not be the dumb, easily-influencable consumers and people that they are. You know who you are.

Lastly, there is a very real downside to being "acessible" as the top guy in an organization - sometimes familiarity detracts from the respect people treat you with. You military guys know that there is a reason officers and enlisted men are not supposed to hang out together too much.

This is a paintball website, people. If your sense of self-worth is iseriously mpacted by anything that is said here, you have problems.

[MantisMag]

i'm surprised noone has considered this. what if this "test" had some ulterior motive? was there really dinner with Swarm? or is that just a fiction created to hide the truth? perhaps tom is preparing for AGD's takeover of the world. he needs to see who can be trusted in here. rest assured that each post was looked at very carefully and names were taken down. tom needs to know who can be truted to be his lieutenants and who are his mindless drones. soon my friends. soon. our time is coming. muahahaha.

[diehard]

Originally Posted by Butterfingers
...Alot more people listen more avidly when hey make thier own mistakes. Your mom can say it 15 million times but in the other case it only takes ONE time time to teach you a lesson.

I still think that this was a GREAT learning expereience to all that participated.

I agree with you butterfingers, as I said in my post, it is a good lesson. However, in keeping with your analogy, there is a difference between a mom letting a kid fall down the stairs and a mom who pushed her kid down the stairs. You wouldn't trust your mom if she pushed you. However, if she told you the truth, that you may fall and hurt yourself, and you did it anyways... then yes, you would learn your lesson, and also your respect for your mother would greatly increase and you may even listen to her next time.

I think the whole analogy is off, 'cause this issue isn't that important. But it just has to do with truth and trust.
BONESisAgod lied, probably for fun... Tom lied to prove a point. Both lies cost people a little respect and a little money. The moral of the story is keep the BS to yourself and just be honest and straightforward.

[Miscue]

Originally posted by FaSSt
I was initially a little mystified and disturbed by the thread.

Then I realized that the basic problem, as eventually demonstrated by the thread, has nothing to do with Tom Kaye, AGD, or even paintball. Instead, the problem stems from the basic inability of most people to read and think CRITICALLY. ....*Insert long post here*....

This is a paintball website, people. If your sense of self-worth is iseriously mpacted by anything that is said here, you have problems.

Oooh... My thoughts EXACTLY. People are unnecessarily applying emotional attachment to what's been said - and are basing their criticisms here. They fall before reaching a point of understanding... let alone a proper deconstruction of what's been said, and all resulting opinions are verily worthless and ignorable as far as paper-and-pencil reasoning is concerned - if you want to go so far. If you are versed in the constructs of formal logic, rhetoric becomes readily distinguished... and intentions discernable. If that is beyond one's capacity, the point is lost... which seems to be the closely defended battlement of these critics.

TK is guilty of no malice, the perceived fault lies elsewhere...