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Thread: XMOD Use Agreement (no legal garbage)

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  1. #1
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    XMOD Use Agreement (no legal garbage)

    Here's what I ask:

    Have a gun and want to load XMOD
    • You can buy a programmer from me($132 Includes shipping to 48 States)
    • You can send your gun to me and I'll flash it ($50 you pay shipping both ways)


    Buying/Acquiring A Gun with XMOD already loaded
    • If you're buying a gun that has XMOD on it it should come with a programmer or you should make me a $50 donation. (Paypal: pniedfeldt@gmail.com) Just because someone else is trying to screw me You can still do the right thing.
    • If you buy more than one gun with XMOD on it you only need to make one donation of $50. I am selling it per person not per gun.


    Bought a programmer and Selling Your Gun - You must either...
    • Include the programmer with it and remove XMOD from all other guns you own, if you sell the gun with XMOD on it.
    • Remove XMOD from the gun, if you want to sell the gun and keep the programmer. (I will provide you with an AGD 3.2 flash via email if you don't have one saved)



    Programmer Owners
    • You can flash all the guns you own. I am selling it per person not per gun.
    • If you buy more than one gun that comes with a programmer you are free to sell the second programmer for a profit
    • You are not allowed to sell the programmer and keep XMOD on any gun you own.
    • When you sell the programmer you are completely giving up your rights to use XMOD


    Paid for Flash
    • You are not expected to remove the flash from your gun when you sell it as you have no way of doing so
    • Any future flashes for YOU are free
    • If you choose to sell your gun either you add $50 to the price and send me that on the sale of the gun or inform then next person they they are to pay for that Right to own that flash
    • the exception would be if that was the only gun you owned then your rights to the free flash would be transferred to the new owner providing you did pay for them in the first place


    To be honest I wouldn't care if someone else flashes your gun and you just paypal me the $50 to save yourself shipping. The problem is that I have never recieved $50 from a single person.


    I may add to this list if questions are asked or I feel that I have forgotten something.
    Last edited by LorneCash; 07-02-2008 at 09:48 AM.

  2. #2
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    Removed at the request of LorneCash.

    Please see post in my own thread here:

    http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...73#post2539273
    Last edited by wetwrks; 07-02-2008 at 12:51 AM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by LorneCash
    Here's what I ask:

    I may add to this list if questions are asked or I feel that I have forgotten something.
    Ya I see that coming.

    But, but, but I can send my mag to Ruler_Mark at ModMyMag and he will do it for free. Looks like you been used and that is sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruler_Mark
    All flashes I do are free of charge, I am not advertising XMOD as the software nor saying I can or can't do it. If you ask i'd do it for free just please give me $ for return shipping and gas $ to the PO.
    http://www.automags.org/forums/showp...2&postcount=10

    http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=226263
    Last edited by Beemer; 07-02-2008 at 12:37 AM.

  4. #4
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    this should be moved into the Dealers forum.


    Plus I very much appreciate everything you've done with the code, but this sounds a wee bit greedy.


    Its like me installing RMOD on my AKA with the cable I bought, then selling the gun. The next guy I sell the gun to would then be asked to donate $X to the creator of the RMOD or remove the program.

    I personally won't be removing my XMOD when i sell my gun, for one its more work that unless you pay for my time lets say about $30 an hr, why would I?







    I may add to the absurdity of this if I feel I have forgotten anything or questions are asked
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  5. #5
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    Once you started selling the programmer you opened the door for this type of thing to happen. It is unrealistic to think that all users of your software would be forthright, honest, and actually pay for credit where it is due. Especially in an age where software/music/movie piracy is practically openly accepted.
    It would have been better to protect this through either having all markers sent to you, or to set up a trusted network of individuals that would do the work with.

    At this point, its a bit too little too late. Given that the only way to enforce this is either through the honor system or the legal system....
    MonkeyBallsInferno
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  6. #6
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    What? Isn't that some kind of agreement that should be signed before someone purchases the programmer so it's legally binding?

    If I buy a used gun with xmod on it you shouldn't be in the loop. someone paid you for the programmer and used it for it's intended purpose you can't make rules midstream. That's like saying that if you sell a gun with a Dye barrel on it you should send dye $110 since a new person is using the barrel.

    You can't track these things once they leave your sight, you can't charge someone money for something you don't own (once you sell something it's not yours anymore) unless you have a legally binding contract when you initially sold the programmer I don't see where you have a leg to stand on here.
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  7. #7
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    We should all be careful here, it could be possible for x-mod to go away for all of us.

    But wouldn't it be just as easy to add 50 bucks to the price of the gun your selling and just forward that along to Lorne?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by JesseB
    If I buy a used gun with xmod on it you shouldn't be in the loop. someone paid you for the programmer and used it for it's intended purpose...
    Quote Originally Posted by JesseB
    That's like saying that if you sell a gun with a Dye barrel on it you should send dye $110 since a new person is using the barrel.
    The difference between Software or any digital media is that you can copy it. You can't copy your Dye barrel.

    With that logic why dont' I sell it to one person and just have them make coppies for the entire world so I would never get another cent?

    I'm not trying to be a jerk or make things difficult I just want to be paid for the work I've done. If you choose to sell the thing you bought from me I simply expect that you don't also keep if for yourself. You can sell it without including me but then you have to sell ALL of it. (sell the programmer and remove it from all guns you still own)

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by JesseB
    What? Isn't that some kind of agreement that should be signed before someone purchases the programmer so it's legally binding?

    you dont need a signature, since there is a contract when someone buys the licence to use x mod.

    If I buy a used gun with xmod on it you shouldn't be in the loop. someone paid you for the programmer and used it for it's intended purpose you can't make rules midstream. That's like saying that if you sell a gun with a Dye barrel on it you should send dye $110 since a new person is using the barrel.

    Agreed he could word it differently. He means that you aren't allow to sell your licence, so if you sell your gun you keep your licence (regardless if you use it or not) and the new user must purchase a licence.

    You can't track these things once they leave your sight, you can't charge someone money for something you don't own (once you sell something it's not yours anymore) unless you have a legally binding contract when you initially sold the programmer I don't see where you have a leg to stand on here.

    Arguably the license can be sold, but since xmod is subject to copy right you can't distribute any copies above the number of copies you are licenced to have. He does have a leg to stand on since he could sue for breach of copyright rather than breach of contract (as you suggest to sign a contract) however it is subject to having to sue to claim damages and criminally it wont be enforcible unless someone is distributing for profit...
    Unfortunately there is the $$$ boundary for him to go after people who have been distributing his software.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by punkncat
    At this point, its a bit too little too late. Given that the only way to enforce this is either through the honor system or the legal system....
    I made the choice a long time ago to let people do an "honor system"... I'm not going to send the feds after anyone. I like to think that the people on AO at least are good people that will respect the hundreds of hours I put into this project.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oregon_pb_
    I personally won't be removing my XMOD when i sell my gun, for one its more work that unless you pay for my time lets say about $30 an hr, why would I?
    Quote Originally Posted by Oregon_pb_
    ...this sounds a wee bit greedy.
    I'm not forcing you to remove it from your gun when you sell it, unless you own more than one. All you have to do is sell the programmer with it then.

    Am I being greedy by asking every person who uses my software to pay me for it?
    I think I'm being pretty generous by saying you can freely load it on all the guns you own... There's not too many software vendors that say that. The idea is simply that you don't "own" a gun for 10min and then "sell" it back to the person you bought it from.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by LorneCash
    Am I being greedy by asking every person who uses my software to pay me for it?
    Now I don't own an e-mag (and probably never will because they are still worth a good piece of coin and my marker needs are met already) so you can call me a unaffected third party.

    In the present climate there are several solutions to any software problem that are free to the end user, linux and most of it's builds (fedora, ubuntu, slackware, etc.), spyware killers (spybot, adaware, etc.), media players (windows media player, quicktime, winamp, etc.) the list goes on and on...and the software there is completely free (some may contain versions you can pay for...that may or may not include more features).

    Even when a company demands to get paid for their software...it rarely happens. When I built my current desktop my friends were shocked I actually bought a copy of windows instead of just pirateing it. Valve's steam project (in the first few years of it's launch) was ripe for piracy, one cd key could have been logged on from infinate systems...it was a complete possiblity to have millions of players playing counter strike from one CD key...this was fixed some time in 2004, I know because I was no longer able to play counter strike on my friend's key. There is a silly number of illegal copys of windows running out there, the same can be said for visual studio, or any other program pack that costs a significant ammount of money.

    Hell several copies of word that I own and my copy of visual studio are technally illegal, they have their individual cd keys and were "purchased" but were obtained for next to nothing on the student software purchase prices while I was in college and I was supposed to uninstall and dispose of the materals at the end of the school year....not happening, especially since those versions are still supported.

    Protecting software is like trying to stop the wind...you can try all you want but it's going to get through...maybe in small bits...but it can't be stopped. Which for me kind of sucks as I am a computer programmer by profession.

    ---------------

    now after all that I think I kind of shot my self in the foot on my question...but I've alwayas wanted to "talk shop" with you lorne...about the language you used...and some of the coding hurdles in this project. I have had the oppertunity to borrow an e-mag for a day that had XMOD and I was quite impressed with it's function and functionality. That and I've always had the desire to look at your code and disect it....pick at it...learn something from it.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by B-Pow
    now after all that I think I kind of shot my self in the foot on my question...but I've alwayas wanted to "talk shop" with you lorne...about the language you used...and some of the coding hurdles in this project. I have had the oppertunity to borrow an e-mag for a day that had XMOD and I was quite impressed with it's function and functionality. That and I've always had the desire to look at your code and disect it....pick at it...learn something from it.

    It was done in Atmel's AT90S2313 assembly language... if you want to know my hurdles you can read through my original development thread E/X-Mag Microcontroller Programming (Atmel AT90S2313) where I picked many brains to fugure some stuff out.

    I have also promised to post the fully commented source code when the last of my programmers sell... I have 24 left and when they're gone they're gone and I'm washing my hands of this project.

  14. #14
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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by LorneCash
    The only way to get the software is to buy a programmer. I don't flash guns nor do I allow anyone who buys one of my programmers to flash guns. I know I can't enforce that but that is what I ask. I'm not trying to be mean I put a lot of hard work into this and it's only fair that I am the one that benefits from it.
    Taken from here :

    http://cgi.ebay.com/E-Mag-X-Mag-Ramp...3286.m14.l1318


    Honestly I couldnt get the software on an Emag I had.
    Its not as easy as its made out to be.
    I dont have any Emags any more but this thread popping up after all this time seems to indicate money misfortunes by the inventor.

    The genie is already out of the bottle now. The software should have been patented and sold on CD's instead of a free download. To little to late, to try and cash in now.
    Dont act surprised because you got hammered when you posted this post.
    Unfortunately because of the way you went about this project, this post will not make any friends in this forum for you. The criticism is deserved in my humble opinion.

    I think its awesome software, and kudos to you, but this post was a bad idea sir.


  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beemer
    Ya I see that coming.

    But, but, but I can send my mag to Ruler_Mark at ModMyMag and he will do it for free. Looks like you been used and that is sad.



    http://www.automags.org/forums/showp...2&postcount=10

    http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=226263

    Yeap I do not do that anymore. I do agd software flashes for free, talking to lorne on a resolution for xmod flashes.


    Edit: as to the license, He can alter/edit it at anytime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruler_Mark
    Yeap I do not do that anymore. I do agd software flashes for free, talking to lorne on a resolution for xmod flashes.


    Edit: as to the license, He can alter/edit it at anytime.
    Are you a Certified AGD Tech? If not, you have no right distributing AGD software either. This software is also copyrighted.
    Email me for low prices on ALL AGD Products and more. tunaman5@verizon.net
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tunaman
    Are you a Certified AGD Tech? If not, you have no right distributing AGD software either. This software is also copyrighted.

    I doubt they can stop you from removing the flash off of the board and placing it on another. If this was an issue I presume I would have been contacted sooner. If I missed some license somewhere on it please lmk.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beemer
    Finally after thirty seven posts in this thread, post thirty eight and thirty nine show the light.

    Besides BigEvil where he quoted one of my posts.



    Ya but, but , but.....how many DID you do????
    As I told Lorne in a pm, only 3 or 4 past my 2 personal emags and one of my friend's. You will be surprized how many emags have the code vs agd software. Everyone would think I have done alot etc but when you do not advertise something you will be surprized how many actually happen. I didnt want todo any flashes tbh, but if you can provide something for somone on a budget why not?
    Last edited by Ruler_Mark; 07-02-2008 at 07:13 PM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruler_Mark
    why not?
    Because nowhere is it stated that you shouldnt. Infact, its been common practice since the software has been on the market.

    Thats "why not"

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruler_Mark
    Edit: as to the license, He can alter/edit it at anytime.
    I don't see any license agreement that you need to agree to on his Ebay page, nor do I see one on his website that you need to agree to before downloading the software. I also I don't remember getting any licensing paperwork in the package I recieved when I bought mine, so what license did anyone purchasing the programmer agree to?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by robnix
    I don't see any license agreement that you need to agree to on his Ebay page, nor do I see one on his website that you need to agree to before downloading the software. I also I don't remember getting any licensing paperwork in the package I recieved when I bought mine, so what license did anyone purchasing the programmer agree to?
    I'll take "None" for 500, Alex.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruler_Mark
    Yeap I do not do that anymore. I do agd software flashes for free, talking to lorne on a resolution for xmod flashes.


    Edit: as to the license, He can alter/edit it at anytime.
    Actually he can't edit/alter it at any time. He can ONLY if it is stated in the contract for aquiring the license that he can alter it at any time. Otherwise the orriginal contract is binding and you own what was originally purchased i.e. the orignal licence.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tao
    Actually he can't edit/alter it at any time. He can ONLY if it is stated in the contract for aquiring the license that he can alter it at any time. Otherwise the orriginal contract is binding and you own what was originally purchased i.e. the orignal licence.

    Figured he had it in there as thats line is pretty much standard to any license.

    Quote Originally Posted by devildog
    you guys are a bunch of babies. He is not "demanding" money from anyone, so drop all the legal talk and get off your high horses. If you dont want to donate, then dont, and shut up. I cant believe ive been spending more time on pbnation than here. Thank god for mcb.

    lornecash- i dont have xmod. I havent owned an emag in over 4 years. I will still donate some cash to you. Pm me your paypal. I will cover for one of these lowlifes.

    kudos to you.


    Beemer shooting you a pm.

    oh and btw, never did flash with agd software except my own gun to try going back from xmod to my original software. Just curious upon this subject personally for many reasons, you tell me no and I wont offer it but still would like your opinion.
    Last edited by Ruler_Mark; 07-02-2008 at 11:46 PM.

  23. #23
    See, if you really wanted to get into it, because the software was posted for download with no restrictions and no required pricing vehicle (i.e., you didn't need to pay anything before you were able to download), the software was free for public consumption. Lornecash was selling the means to take the openly downloaded software and put it on your gun.

    It's roughly analogous to going to a frat party; when you walk up, you pay $5 and get a cup, not the beer. As such, you are buying the means with which to drink beer which is provided free and is otherwise unable to be consumed. Kinda.

    Further, Lornecash, will you be paying taxes on any proceeds? Schedule C is calling.

  24. #24
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    Thumbs up Xmod Ftw!!

    Quote Originally Posted by LorneCash
    I am selling it per person not per gun.
    Or, as we say in Microsoft licensing, you are selling it on a "per user" basis and not "per seat" LOL

    Now, as I was the happy and proud third Beta tester for XMOD (since version 1.5), I gotta say that this guy deserves every penny he is asking for, as I know how long he worked over it and how this work made me happy, provinding me with a way to use my e-Mag on a competitive basis against other high end markers.

    Lornecash is the man and his software rules!!!


  25. #25
    And if you sold the programmers without any of this "agreement" actually agreed upon, no one has to listen to it.

    If microsoft sold me software and gave me no rules or regulations about it, then tried to throw down the hammer on me when I handed it out free to everyone etc and didn't pay them royalties, I'd politely tell them to eat it, as they can't force you to sign their new policy after they screwed up the first time around.

    I honestly wouldn't expect you to receive money from people or see people following these rules. This agreement has zero legal binding over anyone, as no ones signed it, or agreed to it verbally. You're also basing this assumption on that everyone who still has a programmer still reads AO. What if for some reason some random guy has one and doesn't, but just freely distributes on his own accord? If you actually want this enforced, track down every single person with a programmer and beg them to sign it or enter into a verbal contract with you about the distribution of the software (as zero was mentioned during time of purchase).

    No offense, but this seems like an incredibly desperate attempt at weeding money out of the general public during a time where the economy is crappy enough as it is. I understand that you want to be paid for what you did, but technically you were paid. You chose to sell the programmers to people on a "honor system" when in a time of mass piracy of software (which in this case it technically isn't as there was no legal notification/ramification for distributing your software upon purchase) the majority of people just aren't honest.

    Maybe next time in the future you should be more vigilant to create a user end license agreement before selling the product. Not significantly after.

  26. #26
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    It can really never be resolved...Lornecash needs to understand that some may abide by his "agreement" and some will not. It's that simple. On the other side, he's just asking to respect his work and IF you feel some moral responsibility(I would not and don't), give him his due cash. Both sides need to take it for what is...if you don't want to "donate" then don't! Let it go.

  27. #27
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    ^Yep, that's it. That's a moral question and not something that can be enforced.

  28. #28
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    you guys both missed the first line...
    "Here's what I ASK"

    you're right if you want to steal from me I can't stop you nor will I try. I am simply asking that the honest people in this world follow my guidelines. I am not asking anyone to sign or verbally agree to anything as long as we're being honest do you think that would really have stopped you from doing anything anyways?

  29. #29
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    My point...pretty much. Except I would be careful with any accusatory statements or that include the word "steal". Your are more apt to win over the public with a simple plea. You can THINK all you want how this situation is but if you are asking for compliance, that is the WRONG way to go about it. Make yourself out to be the victim, not the [Edit]!


    Edit...WARNING, circumvent the filter or flame again and you will be banned.
    Last edited by Beemer; 07-02-2008 at 11:10 AM.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by LorneCash
    you guys both missed the first line...
    "Here's what I ASK"

    you're right if you want to steal from me I can't stop you nor will I try. I am simply asking that the honest people in this world follow my guidelines. I am not asking anyone to sign or verbally agree to anything as long as we're being honest do you think that would really have stopped you from doing anything anyways?

    Quote Originally Posted by LorneCash
    I expect people to own a programmer... if you own a programmer it's not a problem to flash 3.2 back on. It takes longer to get the screws out than to flash the software. I dont' hate people for trying to get a deal like you did but It would be nice if there were some donations people who got the software without buying a programmer... but you're probably not going to be sending me any money so I'll tell you what I still have 20-30ish programmers here if I sell all of them I will post the fully commented source code on AO.

    http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=232298

    There ya go.

    Way to go AO. You are the first to cry and whine when things dont go your way with a dealer
    and then you turn around and stick it to a guy that spent HIS OWN time and cash to give you what you want.
    Last edited by Beemer; 07-02-2008 at 11:13 AM.

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