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Thread: XMOD Use Agreement (no legal garbage)

  1. #1
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    XMOD Use Agreement (no legal garbage)

    Here's what I ask:

    Have a gun and want to load XMOD
    • You can buy a programmer from me($132 Includes shipping to 48 States)
    • You can send your gun to me and I'll flash it ($50 you pay shipping both ways)


    Buying/Acquiring A Gun with XMOD already loaded
    • If you're buying a gun that has XMOD on it it should come with a programmer or you should make me a $50 donation. (Paypal: pniedfeldt@gmail.com) Just because someone else is trying to screw me You can still do the right thing.
    • If you buy more than one gun with XMOD on it you only need to make one donation of $50. I am selling it per person not per gun.


    Bought a programmer and Selling Your Gun - You must either...
    • Include the programmer with it and remove XMOD from all other guns you own, if you sell the gun with XMOD on it.
    • Remove XMOD from the gun, if you want to sell the gun and keep the programmer. (I will provide you with an AGD 3.2 flash via email if you don't have one saved)



    Programmer Owners
    • You can flash all the guns you own. I am selling it per person not per gun.
    • If you buy more than one gun that comes with a programmer you are free to sell the second programmer for a profit
    • You are not allowed to sell the programmer and keep XMOD on any gun you own.
    • When you sell the programmer you are completely giving up your rights to use XMOD


    Paid for Flash
    • You are not expected to remove the flash from your gun when you sell it as you have no way of doing so
    • Any future flashes for YOU are free
    • If you choose to sell your gun either you add $50 to the price and send me that on the sale of the gun or inform then next person they they are to pay for that Right to own that flash
    • the exception would be if that was the only gun you owned then your rights to the free flash would be transferred to the new owner providing you did pay for them in the first place


    To be honest I wouldn't care if someone else flashes your gun and you just paypal me the $50 to save yourself shipping. The problem is that I have never recieved $50 from a single person.


    I may add to this list if questions are asked or I feel that I have forgotten something.
    Last edited by LorneCash; 07-02-2008 at 09:48 AM.

  2. #2
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    Removed at the request of LorneCash.

    Please see post in my own thread here:

    http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...73#post2539273
    Last edited by wetwrks; 07-02-2008 at 12:51 AM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by LorneCash
    Here's what I ask:

    I may add to this list if questions are asked or I feel that I have forgotten something.
    Ya I see that coming.

    But, but, but I can send my mag to Ruler_Mark at ModMyMag and he will do it for free. Looks like you been used and that is sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruler_Mark
    All flashes I do are free of charge, I am not advertising XMOD as the software nor saying I can or can't do it. If you ask i'd do it for free just please give me $ for return shipping and gas $ to the PO.
    http://www.automags.org/forums/showp...2&postcount=10

    http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=226263
    Last edited by Beemer; 07-02-2008 at 12:37 AM.

  4. #4
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    this should be moved into the Dealers forum.


    Plus I very much appreciate everything you've done with the code, but this sounds a wee bit greedy.


    Its like me installing RMOD on my AKA with the cable I bought, then selling the gun. The next guy I sell the gun to would then be asked to donate $X to the creator of the RMOD or remove the program.

    I personally won't be removing my XMOD when i sell my gun, for one its more work that unless you pay for my time lets say about $30 an hr, why would I?







    I may add to the absurdity of this if I feel I have forgotten anything or questions are asked
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  5. #5
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    Once you started selling the programmer you opened the door for this type of thing to happen. It is unrealistic to think that all users of your software would be forthright, honest, and actually pay for credit where it is due. Especially in an age where software/music/movie piracy is practically openly accepted.
    It would have been better to protect this through either having all markers sent to you, or to set up a trusted network of individuals that would do the work with.

    At this point, its a bit too little too late. Given that the only way to enforce this is either through the honor system or the legal system....
    MonkeyBallsInferno
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  6. #6
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    What? Isn't that some kind of agreement that should be signed before someone purchases the programmer so it's legally binding?

    If I buy a used gun with xmod on it you shouldn't be in the loop. someone paid you for the programmer and used it for it's intended purpose you can't make rules midstream. That's like saying that if you sell a gun with a Dye barrel on it you should send dye $110 since a new person is using the barrel.

    You can't track these things once they leave your sight, you can't charge someone money for something you don't own (once you sell something it's not yours anymore) unless you have a legally binding contract when you initially sold the programmer I don't see where you have a leg to stand on here.
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  7. #7
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    We should all be careful here, it could be possible for x-mod to go away for all of us.

    But wouldn't it be just as easy to add 50 bucks to the price of the gun your selling and just forward that along to Lorne?

  8. #8
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    i think any amount of $ he is aprreciateive but to see someone else offering it for free while using the software he took the time(and probly a good amount of it) to produce is pretty rude to say the least.

    ive done my best to protect lornes rights on pbn, perhaps the mods could do the same here

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oregon_pb_
    I personally won't be removing my XMOD when i sell my gun, for one its more work that unless you pay for my time lets say about $30 an hr, why would I?
    Quote Originally Posted by Oregon_pb_
    ...this sounds a wee bit greedy.
    I'm not forcing you to remove it from your gun when you sell it, unless you own more than one. All you have to do is sell the programmer with it then.

    Am I being greedy by asking every person who uses my software to pay me for it?
    I think I'm being pretty generous by saying you can freely load it on all the guns you own... There's not too many software vendors that say that. The idea is simply that you don't "own" a gun for 10min and then "sell" it back to the person you bought it from.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by punkncat
    At this point, its a bit too little too late. Given that the only way to enforce this is either through the honor system or the legal system....
    I made the choice a long time ago to let people do an "honor system"... I'm not going to send the feds after anyone. I like to think that the people on AO at least are good people that will respect the hundreds of hours I put into this project.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by JesseB
    If I buy a used gun with xmod on it you shouldn't be in the loop. someone paid you for the programmer and used it for it's intended purpose...
    Quote Originally Posted by JesseB
    That's like saying that if you sell a gun with a Dye barrel on it you should send dye $110 since a new person is using the barrel.
    The difference between Software or any digital media is that you can copy it. You can't copy your Dye barrel.

    With that logic why dont' I sell it to one person and just have them make coppies for the entire world so I would never get another cent?

    I'm not trying to be a jerk or make things difficult I just want to be paid for the work I've done. If you choose to sell the thing you bought from me I simply expect that you don't also keep if for yourself. You can sell it without including me but then you have to sell ALL of it. (sell the programmer and remove it from all guns you still own)

  12. #12
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    Thumbs up Xmod Ftw!!

    Quote Originally Posted by LorneCash
    I am selling it per person not per gun.
    Or, as we say in Microsoft licensing, you are selling it on a "per user" basis and not "per seat" LOL

    Now, as I was the happy and proud third Beta tester for XMOD (since version 1.5), I gotta say that this guy deserves every penny he is asking for, as I know how long he worked over it and how this work made me happy, provinding me with a way to use my e-Mag on a competitive basis against other high end markers.

    Lornecash is the man and his software rules!!!


  13. #13
    And if you sold the programmers without any of this "agreement" actually agreed upon, no one has to listen to it.

    If microsoft sold me software and gave me no rules or regulations about it, then tried to throw down the hammer on me when I handed it out free to everyone etc and didn't pay them royalties, I'd politely tell them to eat it, as they can't force you to sign their new policy after they screwed up the first time around.

    I honestly wouldn't expect you to receive money from people or see people following these rules. This agreement has zero legal binding over anyone, as no ones signed it, or agreed to it verbally. You're also basing this assumption on that everyone who still has a programmer still reads AO. What if for some reason some random guy has one and doesn't, but just freely distributes on his own accord? If you actually want this enforced, track down every single person with a programmer and beg them to sign it or enter into a verbal contract with you about the distribution of the software (as zero was mentioned during time of purchase).

    No offense, but this seems like an incredibly desperate attempt at weeding money out of the general public during a time where the economy is crappy enough as it is. I understand that you want to be paid for what you did, but technically you were paid. You chose to sell the programmers to people on a "honor system" when in a time of mass piracy of software (which in this case it technically isn't as there was no legal notification/ramification for distributing your software upon purchase) the majority of people just aren't honest.

    Maybe next time in the future you should be more vigilant to create a user end license agreement before selling the product. Not significantly after.

  14. #14
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    It can really never be resolved...Lornecash needs to understand that some may abide by his "agreement" and some will not. It's that simple. On the other side, he's just asking to respect his work and IF you feel some moral responsibility(I would not and don't), give him his due cash. Both sides need to take it for what is...if you don't want to "donate" then don't! Let it go.

  15. #15
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    ^Yep, that's it. That's a moral question and not something that can be enforced.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beemer
    Ya I see that coming.

    But, but, but I can send my mag to Ruler_Mark at ModMyMag and he will do it for free. Looks like you been used and that is sad.



    http://www.automags.org/forums/showp...2&postcount=10

    http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=226263

    Yeap I do not do that anymore. I do agd software flashes for free, talking to lorne on a resolution for xmod flashes.


    Edit: as to the license, He can alter/edit it at anytime.

  17. #17
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    Hi all, new AO'er here. I've been following this discussion for a bit, and find it rather relevant to myself as I'm a compsci student. I'm not posting to attack anyone, and it's certainly not my intent to flame, troll, or otherwise pick fights.

    That said, I hope to offer a little insight here.

    In the software world, there's a concept known as "open source." In a paragraph or less, the gist of open source is that the computer world benefits when a program is sold/given/traded along with its source code, and that the end-user is (generally) encouraged to trade and modify the software - so long as they continue to provide the source code. It's a powerful, and beneifical tool, of which I'm a proponent.

    By that same token, an open source solution isn't always the appropriate one.

    As has been mentioned, one of the things that makes it tricky in this modern day and age to recognize the value of coding is the fact that when it's given or taken, it's more often that not duplicated. If someone, let's call him Joe, designs and makes a paintball gun and sells it to, say Steve, and then Steve resells that gun - there's still only one gun on the market, for which Joe's time and effort was compensated at the first point of sale.

    With code, however, it's duplicated. As a result, Joe ends up in a position where while he's spent the time and effort to write software - and has a market to sell it to - unless the first level of buyers remove it from their hardware if they're to resell it, suddenly the market finds itself with more products than Joe sold, and money is moving around without any compensation going to the fellow who spent sleepless nights staring at a console.

    Lorne has an interesting setup here - he's not selling the code, he's selling the hardware required to install the code. In essence, he's providing what's often referred to as a "site license" - you, the buyer, are entitled to flashing all the hardware you have on site - or later acquire. However, because this right is granted to you - not the gun - Lorne's asking that something happen should that gun leave your possession.

    By removing XMOD from any guns you're keeping, and selling the programmer - you've essentially sold your site license and replicated the situation where Joe sells Steve a marker. You haven't increased the number of goods on the market, and you've compensated - in this case, Lorne - for the time and effort required to create a single site license.

    The other situations that Lorne's outlined seem to be an attempt to keep this principle alive.

    Yes, perhaps it's a bit late in the game to do so, but by that same token I would hope that we as a community - the larger paintball, and smaller AGD owner community - can recognize the value that Lorne's provided through his efforts. The cost of his license is less than a lot of us spend on paint over the weekend, and I like to think that we're willing to band together to support a guy who's done a good thing for e-Mag owners.

    But let's look at it pragmatically as well - it's unfair, I think, to expect someone to support, troubleshoot and update software without compensation. It's about recognizing effort, and encouraging it. We, as owners, benefit from ensuring that Lorne's not left hanging in the breeze for his work. If he's able to remain solvent, he'll be around for a lot longer and able to keep our gun-code in good shape.

    Just my $.02

  18. #18
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    Well said, but again, it is a dead issue. He's made his request of a "donation"...thats all that can be done. It's out there, people know about it(or will in short order), and will do what they feel they need to. We can't chastise people for their decision.

    Those of you who feel so strongly about it, give some money, and those that don't...well, I certainly am not going to fret and dwell on it.

    Again, that was a great post VVulf, ver informative, but lets keep it in its simplest form and not all this license agreement B.S.

    LorneCash has produced a great product and lets just continue to support it and him HOWEVER you see fit.


    Note: yes, I know he did not JUST ask for money, but my guess would be that is most peoples hangup.(been wrong once before, though)
    Last edited by bjyourk; 07-02-2008 at 10:39 AM. Reason: missed nfo.

  19. #19
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    makes sense now...

    but I don't understand why you made it so readily available and copyable in the first place.

    Good luck hope it works out in your favor

  20. #20
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    So what is the expectation of someone who got their emag flashed by Lornecash? In both the case that I perpetually keep my emag, or sell it?

  21. #21
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    you guys both missed the first line...
    "Here's what I ASK"

    you're right if you want to steal from me I can't stop you nor will I try. I am simply asking that the honest people in this world follow my guidelines. I am not asking anyone to sign or verbally agree to anything as long as we're being honest do you think that would really have stopped you from doing anything anyways?

  22. #22
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    My point...pretty much. Except I would be careful with any accusatory statements or that include the word "steal". Your are more apt to win over the public with a simple plea. You can THINK all you want how this situation is but if you are asking for compliance, that is the WRONG way to go about it. Make yourself out to be the victim, not the [Edit]!


    Edit...WARNING, circumvent the filter or flame again and you will be banned.
    Last edited by Beemer; 07-02-2008 at 11:10 AM.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by LorneCash
    you guys both missed the first line...
    "Here's what I ASK"

    you're right if you want to steal from me I can't stop you nor will I try. I am simply asking that the honest people in this world follow my guidelines. I am not asking anyone to sign or verbally agree to anything as long as we're being honest do you think that would really have stopped you from doing anything anyways?

    Quote Originally Posted by LorneCash
    I expect people to own a programmer... if you own a programmer it's not a problem to flash 3.2 back on. It takes longer to get the screws out than to flash the software. I dont' hate people for trying to get a deal like you did but It would be nice if there were some donations people who got the software without buying a programmer... but you're probably not going to be sending me any money so I'll tell you what I still have 20-30ish programmers here if I sell all of them I will post the fully commented source code on AO.

    http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=232298

    There ya go.

    Way to go AO. You are the first to cry and whine when things dont go your way with a dealer
    and then you turn around and stick it to a guy that spent HIS OWN time and cash to give you what you want.
    Last edited by Beemer; 07-02-2008 at 11:13 AM.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hexis
    So what is the expectation of someone who got their emag flashed by Lornecash? In both the case that I perpetually keep my emag, or sell it?

    Updated to include that possibility check the agreement again

  25. #25
    So, if I had a programmer and sold it, you would "require" what?

    Assume that any guns I had were flashed to non-Xmod software.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beemer
    Way to go AO. You are the first to cry and whine when things dont go your way with a dealer
    and then you turn around and stick it to a guy that spent HIS OWN time and cash to give you what you want.
    ^
    What he said.


    Lornecash was the ONLY one to step up to the plate and deliver any kind of software upgrade for the E/X Mag. His own time, his own money. He certainly will not be getting rich off of this endeavor. If anything this will just be an example to anyone else who is considering producing AGD upgrades.

    If it wasnt for the Xmod, the Emag would be dead and buried.

    "I'm not happy unless you're not happy"

  27. #27
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    Yep! And thanks to Lorne, here is my e-Mag, training for the 2006 Brazilian National Paintball Cup:



    And I can say that this gun stil has the best trigger feel of all my guns as of today.

  28. #28
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    How long has Xmod been out, and this is just coming about?

    Honestly man, you boned yourself by selling programmers.

    Shouldve just done a solid 50 dollar flash fee, and done it all yourself.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by LorneCash
    Am I being greedy by asking every person who uses my software to pay me for it?
    Now I don't own an e-mag (and probably never will because they are still worth a good piece of coin and my marker needs are met already) so you can call me a unaffected third party.

    In the present climate there are several solutions to any software problem that are free to the end user, linux and most of it's builds (fedora, ubuntu, slackware, etc.), spyware killers (spybot, adaware, etc.), media players (windows media player, quicktime, winamp, etc.) the list goes on and on...and the software there is completely free (some may contain versions you can pay for...that may or may not include more features).

    Even when a company demands to get paid for their software...it rarely happens. When I built my current desktop my friends were shocked I actually bought a copy of windows instead of just pirateing it. Valve's steam project (in the first few years of it's launch) was ripe for piracy, one cd key could have been logged on from infinate systems...it was a complete possiblity to have millions of players playing counter strike from one CD key...this was fixed some time in 2004, I know because I was no longer able to play counter strike on my friend's key. There is a silly number of illegal copys of windows running out there, the same can be said for visual studio, or any other program pack that costs a significant ammount of money.

    Hell several copies of word that I own and my copy of visual studio are technally illegal, they have their individual cd keys and were "purchased" but were obtained for next to nothing on the student software purchase prices while I was in college and I was supposed to uninstall and dispose of the materals at the end of the school year....not happening, especially since those versions are still supported.

    Protecting software is like trying to stop the wind...you can try all you want but it's going to get through...maybe in small bits...but it can't be stopped. Which for me kind of sucks as I am a computer programmer by profession.

    ---------------

    now after all that I think I kind of shot my self in the foot on my question...but I've alwayas wanted to "talk shop" with you lorne...about the language you used...and some of the coding hurdles in this project. I have had the oppertunity to borrow an e-mag for a day that had XMOD and I was quite impressed with it's function and functionality. That and I've always had the desire to look at your code and disect it....pick at it...learn something from it.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by B-Pow
    now after all that I think I kind of shot my self in the foot on my question...but I've alwayas wanted to "talk shop" with you lorne...about the language you used...and some of the coding hurdles in this project. I have had the oppertunity to borrow an e-mag for a day that had XMOD and I was quite impressed with it's function and functionality. That and I've always had the desire to look at your code and disect it....pick at it...learn something from it.

    It was done in Atmel's AT90S2313 assembly language... if you want to know my hurdles you can read through my original development thread E/X-Mag Microcontroller Programming (Atmel AT90S2313) where I picked many brains to fugure some stuff out.

    I have also promised to post the fully commented source code when the last of my programmers sell... I have 24 left and when they're gone they're gone and I'm washing my hands of this project.

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