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Thread: G-Force frame, not vaporware!

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyberave68
    I took alot of time learning how to do this and added what i thought would be better in the long run. That would be me engineering how the frame and parts would work best.
    Cy
    Yeah, as much as I look forward to an immediate comparison of the G-Force frame to a Cyberave or Pneumagger frame, I really wouldn't be satisfied until a few people played with it for about 8 to 10 cases of paint. Smack some barricades and collect some paint and shell with it.

    If the frames are still solid after that, then the buyers will have an interesting piece of mag history.

    Quote Originally Posted by robnix
    These packages use Canada Post tracking, which don't have live tracking, and have zero tracking once they hit customs. After customs, all you get is delivery confirmation.
    Which is only good for knowing that they delivered it and you don't have it.
    Last edited by Spider-TW; 08-08-2008 at 10:07 AM.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by robnix
    These packages use Canada Post tracking, which don't have live tracking, and have zero tracking once they hit customs. After customs, all you get is delivery confirmation.
    Ah, too bad. The guy I was replying to was talking about USPS delivery confirmation.

  3. #93
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    "2008/08/09 17:58 MARKHAM, ON Item accepted at the Post Office"


    Well, something is coming my way. I'll post photos as soon as it gets here. I am completely prepared to eat my words if this all comes though.

  4. #94
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    no reason to eat any words unless Garf can go back in time and deliver it on time....or go back in time an handle the whole situation better.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilltop Customs
    no reason to eat any words unless Garf can go back in time and deliver it on time....or go back in time an handle the whole situation better.
    2nd

  6. #96
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    Nope, I hadpretty much doubted that any product was coming given the length of time this has taken and was looking into my legal options. When I open my box I'll take nice pictures and say I was wrong if it's all hunky dory.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by drg
    Talk about a completely irrelevant point. Trigger springs have been in use forever and suggesting that wear or breakage is a significant concern is quite frankly idiotic.
    LOL. Someone states that springs are better than magnets for return force. I state that springs break and wear. How is that completely irrelevant? It is a fact. Just because someone fails at doing something for a long period of time does not make it "right"

  8. #98
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    a slightly stiffer spring for the 3 way would have fixed the problem, and been easier/cheaper than milling spring pockets and supplementing with a large spring or magnet. Also a slightly stiffer spring in the 3 way would have been an internal part never seen, and never broken by the user. Hell even a small spacer placed behind the current spring might work(never took apart one of these 3 ways yet)



    I cant wait to see what the finished product looks like, I'll be watching for some pics.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by MANN
    LOL. Someone states that springs are better than magnets for return force. I state that springs break and wear. How is that completely irrelevant? It is a fact. Just because someone fails at doing something for a long period of time does not make it "right"
    Who said they are better than magnets?

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilltop Customs
    a slightly stiffer spring for the 3 way would have fixed the problem, and been easier/cheaper than milling spring pockets and supplementing with a large spring or magnet. Also a slightly stiffer spring in the 3 way would have been an internal part never seen, and never broken by the user. Hell even a small spacer placed behind the current spring might work(never took apart one of these 3 ways yet)
    Well the benefit of having it external to the 3-way is that it is adjustable and removable. And I wouldn't doubt if simply stiffening up the 3-way would lead to more short-stroking issues.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by drg
    Well the benefit of having it external to the 3-way is that it is adjustable and removable. And I wouldn't doubt if simply stiffening up the 3-way would lead to more short-stroking issues.
    You mean less short-stroking issues. The problem with the spring in the MSV is that is so soft that it does not return the trig fast enuff or is not strong enuff to completly close between shots. I stronger spring or magnets is how you get rid of short-stroking the MSV and the valve....
    Zero Gravity Customs

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  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyberave68
    You mean less short-stroking issues. The problem with the spring in the MSV is that is so soft that it does not return the trig fast enuff or is not strong enuff to completly close between shots. I stronger spring or magnets is how you get rid of short-stroking the MSV and the valve....
    No, I meant more. I'm thinking keeping the switch activation pressure light and using an external spring or magnet return would be less prone to short stroking than increasing switch activation pressure to make up for the lack of an external return.

    But it's just a theory, have you tried putting a stiffer spring in the MSV? If so is it the same as using external return?

  13. #103
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    drg-I dont really consider a spring you have to cut, adjustable. If the frame included a spring tension set screw then it would be adjustable, but with the current setup if you cut too much off the spring you have to throw it away and get a new spring. Also if you adjust the trigger stops and 3 way activation point, you might have to get another spring because its now out of adjustment.

    the standard 3 way doesnt apply enough force to reset itself and return the trigger....currently we add springs or magnets to reset the trigger and allow the 3 way to reset itself. The exact same can be accomplished with a stronger spring in the 3 way that is capable of applying enough force to push the trigger back....the trigger would still feel the same as one with an additional external trigger spring. (also having the force to return the trigger generated by the 3 way spring has an added benifit: if the 3 way ever gets gummed up it will be more likely to work with a stronger spring than with the current light spring)

    I cant tell you if a stiffer spring or spacer would really work in one of these 3 ways though, as Ive never taken them apart.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilltop Customs
    drg-I dont really consider a spring you have to cut, adjustable. If the frame included a spring tension set screw then it would be adjustable, but with the current setup if you cut too much off the spring you have to throw it away and get a new spring. Also if you adjust the trigger stops and 3 way activation point, you might have to get another spring because its now out of adjustment.
    Well that's no harder than existing back-engineered solutions, but the built-in solution is a certainly a good thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hilltop Customs
    the standard 3 way doesnt apply enough force to reset itself and return the trigger....currently we add springs or magnets to reset the trigger and allow the 3 way to reset itself. The exact same can be accomplished with a stronger spring in the 3 way that is capable of applying enough force to push the trigger back....the trigger would still feel the same as one with an additional external trigger spring. (also having the force to return the trigger generated by the 3 way spring has an added benifit: if the 3 way ever gets gummed up it will be more likely to work with a stronger spring than with the current light spring)
    Is that just an assumption or empirical truth? I am aware of the operational considerations of the MSV, having a pneumag myself, but I wonder if making the switch harder to throw is indeed identical WRT shortstroking than applying that extra force to the trigger.

  15. #105
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    they both accomplish the same thing, applying more return force to the trigger, their method of action is extremely similar(one pushes on the trigger directly while the other pushes on a rod that pushes on the trigger) so I think its safe to assume that their effects would be the same. If it was me, Id rather have the added force go through the 3 way to make operation of the 3 way more reliable.

    Now the availability of a spring with a higher tension(K value) that is the same size of the current 3 way spring might be a problem, thats why I mentioned spacers earlier....pre-compress the spring a little and you will have your higher return force.

    just pulled apart an msv-2 and I see no reason whatsoever that it wouldnt work. there are 5 parts excluding the body...

    Rear screw->spring->o-ring pin->o-ring->activation pin

    the spring is about .2 in. and is a cone shaped, extremely light.

    Actually, I just tightened down the screw farther than what it was originally, and it increased the return force to the point I dont think there is any chance of short stroking....go figure

    edit: you can turn in the screw about 1 3/4 turns past flush with the body and it still works fine, anything past that the rear screw begins to interfere with the o-ring pin. Anyone ever do this in their mag? I only have an ep mag so I cant really try it in a working mag. I have 2 msv-2's here and you can definitely tell the difference between the one thats turned in and the one that isnt. It would be really interesting to see what a different spring would do.
    Last edited by Hilltop Customs; 08-12-2008 at 07:19 PM.

  16. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilltop Customs
    they both accomplish the same thing, applying more return force to the trigger, their method of action is extremely similar(one pushes on the trigger directly while the other pushes on a rod that pushes on the trigger) so I think its safe to assume that their effects would be the same. If it was me, Id rather have the added force go through the 3 way to make operation of the 3 way more reliable.

    Now the availability of a spring with a higher tension(K value) that is the same size of the current 3 way spring might be a problem, thats why I mentioned spacers earlier....pre-compress the spring a little and you will have your higher return force.

    just pulled apart an msv-2 and I see no reason whatsoever that it wouldnt work. there are 5 parts excluding the body...

    Rear screw->spring->o-ring pin->o-ring->activation pin

    the spring is about .2 in. and is a cone shaped, extremely light.

    Actually, I just tightened down the screw farther than what it was originally, and it increased the return force to the point I dont think there is any chance of short stroking....go figure

    edit: you can turn in the screw about 1 3/4 turns past flush with the body and it still works fine, anything past that the rear screw begins to interfere with the o-ring pin. Anyone ever do this in their mag? I only have an ep mag so I cant really try it in a working mag. I have 2 msv-2's here and you can definitely tell the difference between the one thats turned in and the one that isnt. It would be really interesting to see what a different spring would do.
    I might just give this a try

    In any event, my point is not that the solution is better or worse than others, only that it is an engineered-in solution, which many if not most DIY jobs don't have.

    I get the feeling that people are just looking for reasons to nitpick this frame based on the maker's business practices. Try to separate the two out.
    Last edited by drg; 08-12-2008 at 08:15 PM.

  17. #107
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    drg:
    I'm sorry if I came off nitpicking I'm not trying to, I just saw someone mentioned springs, and then magnets...I thought I would give an opinion of what I thought was a good alternate to both

    Every time Ive posted in these G-force threads Ive tried to be as unbiased as possible, when I did complain about Garf it was just for his poor business practices, or to try to quiet a special supporter of his recently....but Ive always tried to be respectful of everyone involved. I'm not going to post about possible flaws I see in the frame, unless someone starts experiencing problems related to those flaws. I mentioned the flaw in the spring design because you said about the adjust ability of the spring, and I thought it was relevant to point out how limited the adjust ability of the spring without a tension setscrew really is.

    I'm not trying to rain on the parade of these frames arriving, that is just mean to the customers who have dealt with all this customer service crap already. But you also have to watch out for supporting a product no one has received and therefore used, also.(not directly at you drg, but anyone who supports the frame before using it)



    -------------
    Just a little comment on the word engineered......this has drove me nuts since this frame was first described as engineered...

    Something that is engineered has every effort of many people to make sure there is not a single flaw, because if there is a flaw it will bring about huge ramifications.

    One engineer can design something and completely miss many flaws, bring in a second engineer and a high percentage of the flaws disappear, add a third and now your have a product that has been engineered. I doubt Garf himself would call this frame engineered, and if he did he is full of it....


    wow I type long responses when I'm playing video games...and I trimmed 1/2 of it out

  18. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilltop Customs
    Just a little comment on the word engineered......this has drove me nuts since this frame was first described as engineered...

    Something that is engineered has every effort of many people to make sure there is not a single flaw, because if there is a flaw it will bring about huge ramifications.

    One engineer can design something and completely miss many flaws, bring in a second engineer and a high percentage of the flaws disappear, add a third and now your have a product that has been engineered. I doubt Garf himself would call this frame engineered, and if he did he is full of it....

    wow I type long responses when I'm playing video games...and I trimmed 1/2 of it out
    Not to try to pick an argument, but not in common parlance. There is no set requirement for using the word in general discussion other than the operation using some engineer-like skill.

  19. #109
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    I work for engineering; so I'm really getting a kick out of a lot of these replies.

    /etc, etc
    God....I guess I was probably returning videotapes.

  20. #110
    According to the usps website, my frame should get to me within 2-3 days. I'll get pics and vids up as soon as I get it.

  21. #111
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    never heard the saying "common parlance" be4....learn something new everyday



    If someone accepts the word engineered as having no set requirements, they shouldnt be using the word since it has no meaning to them. Ask an engineer what it means when they have engineered something.....then you have the definition.

    Its true that the definition may very depending who your talking to, but you should agree an engineered product should never dip below acceptable. Have the customers here found their frames acceptable so far? If the frame were engineered they wouldnt be 10 months late, engineering extends well in to product planning/shipping scheduling/delivery dates.

    What I posted earlier was my definition of engineered, as an engineer myself....I would never accept anything less. Engineers who do accept less are huge liabilities.




    Oh BTW if you try to tighten the msv-2, find a screw driver that fits the slot as tight as possible....and back the screw out a few turns first....then tighten it in about 1 3/4 turns past flush. The screw was REALLY tight at first and if you try to screw it in off the bat you may end up going too far without realizing and doing damage.


    warbeak2099, thats good to hear, have you talked to Garf anymore? any news if the rest of the frames are shipping?
    Last edited by Hilltop Customs; 08-13-2008 at 12:59 PM.

  22. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Hilltop Customs

    warbeak2099, thats good to hear, have you talked to Garf anymore? any news if the rest of the frames are shipping?
    I spoke to him yesterday. He didn't say anything about other frames, I only asked him about mine. He did talk about some other projects but I told him it's not worth it since no would be likely to buy anything from him again. It sounded like some really cool stuff though.

  23. #113
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    I wouldnt say no one would buy from him again, but I doubt anyone would pre-order after witnessing how badly Garf handled this fiasco.

  24. #114
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    When I spoke to him Garf said that he has been shipping frames for some time now and that most of the orders were from people who were not on AO, so that's why the masses aren't posting about getting their frames. He also said that he hadn't responded to the requests for photos for fear of people copying the design before he had a chance to deliver the product.

    Just passing along info...

  25. #115
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    Yeah, right.


    A site for gay and alternative lifestyles: www.zakvetter.com

  26. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Hilltop Customs
    I wouldnt say no one would buy from him again, but I doubt anyone would pre-order after witnessing how badly Garf handled this fiasco.
    I kind of hinted to him that if he does do it, it shouldn't be a pre-order. It's definitely something that people would be interested in though. He's basically got a mag valve shooting down to the last 350psi in a tank. He says it's got consistancy issues though so he's going to keep working on it.

  27. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by warbeak2099
    I kind of hinted to him that if he does do it, it shouldn't be a pre-order. It's definitely something that people would be interested in though. He's basically got a mag valve shooting down to the last 350psi in a tank. He says it's got consistancy issues though so he's going to keep working on it.
    He can keep his LP mag....IS Gforce really Smartparts? SmartMag anyone?

    Although I would like to see his hopper design....

  28. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by insixdays777
    He can keep his LP mag....IS Gforce really Smartparts? SmartMag anyone?

    Although I would like to see his hopper design....
    Gee I'd be interested in a mag that can shoot down to 350psi. The only complaint I have about my mags is their inability to shoot deep into the tank. I do hope he's not just sticking a "magic box" on the side of the valve though. I'm kind of interested in what the hell he's done to get such results.

  29. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by robertsr1811
    When I spoke to him Garf said that he has been shipping frames for some time now and that most of the orders were from people who were not on AO, so that's why the masses aren't posting about getting their frames. He also said that he hadn't responded to the requests for photos for fear of people copying the design before he had a chance to deliver the product.

    Just passing along info...
    Where else would you sell mag parts? If i'm not mistaken these are mag frames ...right????
    And why send them to everybody else first?

    Sounds funny to me....

  30. #120
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    WOW...what BS...HE could not make the frame in under 10 months, Why does he think someone can copy them from a photo in 2 weeks? HAHAHAHA....

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