G-Force frame, not vaporware!

[Hilltop Customs]

And it's a great looking gun. But performance wise, I think the G-Force frames will supersede DIY jobs. Like I stated above, the way he placed the actuator and MSV-1 really makes a difference. Think about it from an engineering standpoint. The MSV-1 is at the complete top of the trigger where force can be applied to it with the most leverage by the trigger. This means a lighter and shorter pull. The actuator applies force to the bottom of the already extended sear arm. This means less force is needed from the actuator and therefore less gas is needed to power it.

It's more efficient than a DIY frame, and has a better trigger pull.

Now I'm not saying the DIY jobs suck. I've seen the vids, they're awesome. And much cheaper too. But this is a production product that has been meticulously engineered (to the point of making us wait way too long for our frames lol). It's obviously going to perform better. Your guys' frames are still unique and cool though.

from an engineering standpoint? your kidding right? I know your giddy about possibly getting a frame, but you need to stop and think about what your saying be4 posting. Putting the actuation point closer to the trigger pivot point leads to a LONGER pull for the same movement of the actuator. Yes it would make the trigger pull lighter, but you are already dealing with a much lighter pull because the longer sear arm requires less pressure to actuate. Once you hit a certain point lightness doesnt matter, thats why you need a spring or magnet for return. I'm not trying to rag on you warbreak, but your making claims in your posts you know nothing about....claiming its more efficient, better trigger pull? claiming its meticulously engineered? YOU DONT KNOW ANY OF THIS. You are sounding like a fanboy in your posts.

Luke, Ive got to agree with you, IDK if it is because of the long wait or not, but I expected a lot more out of this frame. I really expected a new 3 way instead of just using an off the shelf part(I thought Garf claimed a "better" 3 way when he originally released the video?)

MANN, its same concept, only #70 is replaced with an air line and the 2 components are separated. 1 piece design has an advantage of less possible spots to leak, 1 solid piece so easier mounting, faster actuation because less air is wasted in the line and less restrictions of nipples and finally a more compact design. The downfall of the 1 piece is adjusting the placement can be a PITA since both the ram and 3 way are connected(adjusting one effects the other)

smoothice a new sear would have been expensive, that tiny piece of aluminum is much cheaper to make than a hardened piece of steel. I agree that seems like a weak link...possibly creating headaches for users. If someone happens to get epoxy in the sear hole(where the clevis attaches) it will be a real PITA to drill it out.....and dont forget these frames are marketed to people who dont have resources to to build their own pneu...meaning they dont have tools to drill out the epoxy. (quick scenario, your at the field, your LPR starts creeping, so you want to switch back to your intelli, you break off the epoxied on sear extended, but you have epoxy in the sear hole....now what?)

As for all the people that are claiming these frames are better than DIY frames...STOP until you have a frame in your hand and actually know how they perform. Claiming product A outperforms another product makes no sense unless you have experience with both.....which no one does, because no one has these frames yet.

[Spider-TW]

(I thought Garf claimed a "better" 3 way when he originally released the video?)

Perhaps an integrated 3 way was too close to the other design.

I hope that the actuator ram is just the guts from an MPA-3, so that replacement parts can be found. It looks like it.

For the price of the frame, I wouldn't really think about pulling the frame off on a field leak. I don't expect many of the people that ordered the frames would be without another marker either.

I'm skeptical of the two little dabs of epoxy on the sear (needs more imo), but I expect the frame to be at least as good initially as a DIY pneu. The problem is that pneu frames are so finicky and you don't know a bolt on as well as one you built.

I'm with Robertsr though. A manual doesn't completely drive off the stench of vaporware. I invoke the fundamental right of

PICS OR SHENS!

[insixdays777]

My DIY frame is the awesome...It is not going to be easy to beat it....but like I said I will ba making a video comparing the two frames ( If/when I get my G-Frame)

[Hilltop Customs]

i guess thats true about switching markers...I just value the ease of change because I change mine every time I go out.(start with carbon fiber so I'm not shooting as much paint, then switch to the ep to have some fun spraying) But I guess anyone could pick up an extra sear to solve the problem and just have one permanently mounted in the adapter.

Congrats on getting some info about the frame to everyone who is waiting! (completely forgot in the last post)

My DIY frame is the awesome...It is not going to be easy to beat it....but like I said I will ba making a video comparing the two frames ( If/when I get my G-Frame)

Cant wait to see the video! No cheating tho....dont be like smart parts

[ThePixelGuru]

I had to come back into this thread to state for the record that a manual doesn't mean not vaporware - the only thing that proves it's not vaporware is the product itself.

And yeah, it makes absolutely zero sense to compare the performance of this frame to a DIY one at this point in time.

[Smoothice]

I had to come back into this thread to state for the record that a manual doesn't mean not vaporware - the only thing that proves it's not vaporware is the product itself.

And yeah, it makes absolutely zero sense to compare the performance of this frame to a DIY one at this point in time.

Couldn't agree with you or the others who posted the same more.

I"ll believe it when I see it.

[warbeak2099]

It also looks to be the exact same prototype frame we saw last year.

Check the pics from the PDF and the beginning of the dealer's thread. I personally see what look to be a lot of the same mill marks.

Also, if you'll recall, one of the holdup excuses was that they were going to drill a hole in the back of the frame to manually actuate the sear so you could pop the on/off to take out the valve. I don't see a hole, which means that either this isn't a production frame, or that partiular excuse was 100% bogus.

This does not at all even begin to prove to me that there are 100 or even 10 of these frames ready for delivery.


I'll believe it when I see photos of more than one frame. I still hope this turns out good for everyone. I still think there will be a lot of angry customers.

Sorry, I should have mentioned what Garf told me. The pictures all use the prototype frame we saw in the video. The frames we will be receiving are different. He just used pics he had of the prototype since the internal schematics are the same. All the improvements were indeed made to the new style frames that we will be receiving. Again, the pictures in the manual are of the prototype, not what we will be receiving. Cool your jets.

[Smoothice]

Sorry, I should have mentioned what Garf told me. The pictures all use the prototype frame we saw in the video. The frames we will be receiving are different. He just used pics he had of the prototype since the internal schematics are the same. All the improvements were indeed made to the new style frames that we will be receiving. Again, the pictures in the manual are of the prototype, not what we will be receiving. Cool your jets.

That info doesn't really cool any jets.

It just opens up the possibility that nothing has been done since the prototype.

I'm just going to patiently wait (for a little bit) for people to get their tracking numbers and start posting pictures and vids.

[insixdays777]

I'm just going to patiently wait (for a little bit) for people to get their tracking numbers and start posting pictures and vids.

exactly..the clock is still ticking...

[drg]

You can't beat the snappiness of a magnetic return though, an adjustable magnetic trigger is even nicer.

Personal preference, however the point is the majority of DIY jobs have NO return assistance and rely on the MSV.

[drg]

springs wear/break. magnets dont.

Talk about a completely irrelevant point. Trigger springs have been in use forever and suggesting that wear or breakage is a significant concern is quite frankly idiotic.

[warbeak2099]

from an engineering standpoint? your kidding right? I know your giddy about possibly getting a frame, but you need to stop and think about what your saying be4 posting. Putting the actuation point closer to the trigger pivot point leads to a LONGER pull for the same movement of the actuator. Yes it would make the trigger pull lighter, but you are already dealing with a much lighter pull because the longer sear arm requires less pressure to actuate. Once you hit a certain point lightness doesnt matter, thats why you need a spring or magnet for return. I'm not trying to rag on you warbreak, but your making claims in your posts you know nothing about....claiming its more efficient, better trigger pull? claiming its meticulously engineered? YOU DONT KNOW ANY OF THIS. You are sounding like a fanboy in your posts.

I was wrong about the length of the trigger pull. But yes it's going to be lighter and yes it's going to be more efficient. A ram operating on 25-30psi is obviously going to consume less air than a ram operating on 50-80psi. That's just common sense.

And I didn't mean to get into a pissing match with people who obviously feel the need to validate their decision to put together their own frame instead of buying this one. Neither one is better, both have their strong points. It seems rather silly for you to as well to make conjecture about this frame being "not that much better than a DIY job" when you obviously haven't shot one yet. I can't say it's better than a DIY job because neither have I. I merely said what it seems like.

And I'm also sorry for sticking up for the guy when no one else would. Sometimes someone needs to play devil's advocate, even if the party he's defending is in fact guilty of something. It seems like we could use a little balance around here since no one is really being objective. It's a shame, but it's reality.

This thread was made to let customers and other interested parties check out the manual. It was also meant to give a little hope to those of us waiting on our frames. If people want to derail it, that's fine. I can always delete it. That would kind of suck though. So how's about we all grow up and end the juvenile pissing match?

[Smoothice]

So how's about we all grow up and end the juvenile pissing match?

Agreed.

Why don't you lead by example?

Cause your whole last post was riddled with urine.

[warbeak2099]

Ok, clean slate starts here.

[geekwarrior]

time it took to make the manual (with the prototype frame no less) - 1/2 hour+

time the manual will keep you strung along - 2 weeks

time it would take to post a picture of a few finished frames - 5 minutes.


watching people still try to defend garf: pitiful.


/I lol'd when I saw the epoxy part...thought you guys bought a finished frame not a model airplane
//hope I'm wrong in the end

[LK-13]

i hope no one has been placated by this.
you have been thrown a bone when you ordered and paid for the whole Steak.

[mostpeople]

epoxy?


seriously?



cant wait to watch what happens what that fails miserably

[WickedKlown2]

epoxy?


seriously?



cant wait to watch what happens what that fails miserably

From what I can tell from the Manual... Epoxy is placed onto the extender pocket sidewalls on the inside,,, Sear rod is placed in the extender pocket ,,, and then a small allen screw goes through the Sear rod hole and screws into the extender... I must be reading and looking at the pictures wrong... My post is Not intended to flame,,, just looking at it from a Small Arms Repair Tech (45B) point of veiw...

Just my 2 pennies...

WK2

[Dirge]

No, your reading it right. The epoxy is there to make for a better, tighter fit.

And for all those who have a problem with epoxy, use JB WELD and quit your whining. It's part of the design, so move on.

[TwilightG]

I smell smoke...

It has been confirmed that all pics are from the prototype (which many have already suspected) and it also appears that the manual was written almost a year ago (2007 is indicated in several spots)

Until tracking numbers are confirmed, there is still NO evidence whatsoever of a production frame.

Although I still firmly believe that these will eventually reach our hands, it's just not going to happen anytime soon.
I confirmed my shipping/order info almost a month ago... If they were not ready back then, then why send out an e-mail for confirmation?

(unfortunately, it seems that the original G-Force thread has spilled out of the dealer section and into PB talk.. I'll try to keep all of my future posts regarding this in there)

[warbeak2099]

From what I can tell from the Manual... Epoxy is placed onto the extender pocket sidewalls on the inside,,, Sear rod is placed in the extender pocket ,,, and then a small allen screw goes through the Sear rod hole and screws into the extender... I must be reading and looking at the pictures wrong... My post is Not intended to flame,,, just looking at it from a Small Arms Repair Tech (45B) point of veiw...

Just my 2 pennies...

WK2

Yep, there's no reason with the screw and epoxy that it won't be good and solid.

And again, we've started over here. Keep the Garf bashing and negativity out of this and keep the discussion focused on the operation of the frame and such. If you want to talk about how much you hate Garf or how much you think we got screwed, take it to another thread please. Otherwise I'm going to close this thread which would suck for people who may not have seen the manual yet but are interested in checking it out.

[Spider-TW]

From what I can tell from the Manual... Epoxy is placed onto the extender pocket sidewalls on the inside,,, Sear rod is placed in the extender pocket ,,, and then a small allen screw goes through the Sear rod hole and screws into the extender... I must be reading and looking at the pictures wrong... My post is Not intended to flame,,, just looking at it from a Small Arms Repair Tech (45B) point of veiw...

Just my 2 pennies...

WK2

You reckon the allen screw is the locator for the fit between the two, while the epoxy hardens and keeps things from vibrating loose?

I'm sorry Warbeak, but your thread title did get my hopes up. I'm figure there's something technical to learn from this frame one way or the other.

[insixdays777]

If we ever see these things...looks like the design will be quieter than our DIY frames, the sear/arm adapter rest up against the articular...should help with the "click-tap" noise....not that is is overly loud anyway...just something I noticed that i think will be different.

[Spider-TW]

I've seen this mentioned, but was there a G-Force opinion on whether you should put the frame on a classic valved mag?

[robertsr1811]

He's said that you can, but that you will absolutely experience shootdown with rapid fire.

[TwilightG]

I've seen this mentioned, but was there a G-Force opinion on whether you should put the frame on a classic valved mag?

According to the other thread, G-Force claims to be testing each frame on X-Valved and Classic-valved mags.

[warbeak2099]

Yea he never said you'd experience massive shootdown. You will if you use Co2 of course. But Classic valves can handle about 16-17bps, so it shouldn't be a problem. We know the frame will work with a Classic, you just have to make sure you're not pulling over 17bps consistently. I can't even do 15 consistently, not that you really need to. So it will most likely work fine on my sleeper.

[Hilltop Customs]

I was wrong about the length of the trigger pull. But yes it's going to be lighter and yes it's going to be more efficient. A ram operating on 25-30psi is obviously going to consume less air than a ram operating on 50-80psi. That's just common sense.

And I didn't mean to get into a pissing match with people who obviously feel the need to validate their decision to put together their own frame instead of buying this one. Neither one is better, both have their strong points. It seems rather silly for you to as well to make conjecture about this frame being "not that much better than a DIY job" when you obviously haven't shot one yet. I can't say it's better than a DIY job because neither have I. I merely said what it seems like.

And I'm also sorry for sticking up for the guy when no one else would. Sometimes someone needs to play devil's advocate, even if the party he's defending is in fact guilty of something. It seems like we could use a little balance around here since no one is really being objective. It's a shame, but it's reality.

This thread was made to let customers and other interested parties check out the manual. It was also meant to give a little hope to those of us waiting on our frames. If people want to derail it, that's fine. I can always delete it. That would kind of suck though. So how's about we all grow up and end the juvenile pissing match?

Its also common sense that you dont know the internal volume of air used per shot of Garf's ram vs a MPA3 that is properly set up....so once again you dont know if it is more efficient. I forgot low pressure is inherently better Not that this efficiency matters because its probably equivalent to 5 shots out of the tank if that, but you made the claim in the first place.

I say this frame is not better than DIY frames because at this point Garfs frames dont exist. Once its in the hands of the users and there are some reviews of it, my opinion might change, but it will never change based on speculation.

I havent once been juvenile, or been in this so called pissing match, I just pointed out that your claims are pure speculation. I couldn't really care less if you want to play devils advocate, I didnt post here because of you or Garf, I posted here because your statements are misleading.


edit: just a little speculation of my own, low pressure will cause a slower reaction time of the ram. Lower reaction time the ram could lead to a higher chance of misfire because of a partial pull or extremely fast release. Now will this be a problem? who knows, I'm just trying to show you that I could add much more doubt in this frame and its functionality......but I dont see a point in backing or talking down a product until I have experience with it.

[warbeak2099]

I'm on vacation so I haven't been able to get on recently. But Garf gave me some specs on the production frames:


Frame Cosmetics
-new trigger guard milling
-trigger guard cut higher for big hands
-grip area reduced for smaller hands
-new custom grip panels (3 screws) with inner pockets milled to accommodate wide aftermarket LPR

Functional milling and improvements
-mill excess material for weight reduction
-increased LPR cavity area for larger LPR
-re-designed actuator with exhaust vent holes for faster cycling
-set screw for retaining trigger pin
-dual ball bearings in trigger
-changed to M3 from 4-40 set screws for finer adjustments
-spring pocket in trigger
-new trigger geometry
-access hole for sear release
-wider sear extender adaptor
-back stop for sear extender adaptor

I'll update you when I get more info, probably when I get home on Thursday.

[robertsr1811]

Any tracking info? I thought you were supposed to hear Friday or today.