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Thread: G-Force frame, not vaporware!

  1. Dear Andrew,



    Please be advised your order of the G-Force Automag pneumatic frame are being packed and will go out by Xpresspost USA on Friday Aug. 8th. Your assigned shipment tracking number is CE51***8967CA. Shipment status can be obtained online at www.usps.com and www.canadapost.ca



    Thank you.



    Production Team

    G-Force

    www.gforcepb.com

    sorry i didnt post earlier...i told him to delay mine due to my being in the dominican republic smoking cubans and drinking booze...

    anywho...

    you could utilize his design in your diy...but need i remind the community that you should PROSIBRIE at least ask him before you go around flaunting it...it is patented afterall...
    Last edited by Andrew Cunje; 08-08-2008 at 12:59 AM.
    I LOVE MAGS ...and hate low pressure output tanks....and spyders


  2. #92
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    Sorry for being so late and posting on old posts... Been kinda busy building Pneumags for people who are tired of waiting for there G-frame....


    Quote Originally Posted by warbeak2099
    It's hugely different. The sear extender allows for the actuator to be mounted low, under the MSV-1. Since the MSV-1 is mounted so high up behind the trigger, the pull is lighter and shorter than any home made mod could ever be. The lower actuation point also allows the ram to be driven by less pressure but maintain the capability of high rof.
    Just cause the msv is mounted high doenst mean that the pull will be softer than a proprerly built home brew. If you look at the 2 different MSV's, my home brews come with a lever already attached which i use to its full advantage... I also put my trig rod to the highest part on the back of the trig as well. That make two point of leverage on my frame one bieng the level on the MSV-2 and how i set the trig rod. I'll admit the exteder is a new and neat idea but you cant say by a pic that it better than anything anybody did them self...

    I wish i could resize this but i cant seem to get it right, sorry i'm only good with pneumags...lol Its for reference on the trig rod and MSV-2 lever, and this a a build i did almost 2 years ago....




    Quote Originally Posted by warbeak2099
    It's more efficient than a DIY frame, and has a better trigger pull.

    Now I'm not saying the DIY jobs suck. I've seen the vids, they're awesome. And much cheaper too. But this is a production product that has been meticulously engineered (to the point of making us wait way too long for our frames lol). It's obviously going to perform better. Your guys' frames are still unique and cool though.
    I'll give you that it MAY BE MORE EFFICIENT but theres no way to tell when nobody really knows the actuall LPR pressured used in a DIY frame with ULT...

    Now to say because it's "meticulously engineered " doesnt mean it will be better. Thats just silly. I took alot of time learning how to do this and added what i thought would be better in the long run. That would be me engineereing how the frame and parts would work best. That would make just as superior as any other engineered frame. Dont get me wrong here i'm not singleing you out on a personal basis, it just seems to me that you have made up your mind on a product that nobody has yet...!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by TwilightG
    Does it have Cyber's magnet mod? I'd be very interested to see a comparison. From the sound of it, the mag mod has done wonders for diy pneumags. Unfortunately it wasn't available when I ordered the G-Force frame. (I don't think)

    Hopefully we can get a few reviews and comparisons of DIY vs. G-Force. Either way, $200 for a production pneu-frame is a good deal (assuming that we get more than a manual )
    Not my mod...LOL From the looks of it you could prolly set up magnets on the back of the trig and the inside back of the trig guard. The magmod was to combat the super soft spring in the MSV. heck there was a couple of times running to a bunker that my gun fired. It was the weight of the trig bounceing while i was running the was setting it off...lol So i came up with a way to get magnets in there to help fight that. I'm sure someone will figure it out and let everbody know.....


    Quote Originally Posted by smoothice
    I'm personally a little worried about the sear arm extender.

    While I think it is a neat idea to extend the arm.

    It seems to be the one weak link. Just a few dabs of epoxy are supposed to hold the key feature together for thousands of cycles?

    I hope Garf did some thorough testing. Lets hope he used this extra 7 months wisely.

    I feel like it would have probably been cheaper and easier and possibly more reliable to have just made a new sear with a longer arm.
    the extender also looks to be Aluminum, and prolly will just as bad as the epoxy as far as reliability....


    Quote Originally Posted by warbeak2099
    I was wrong about the length of the trigger pull. But yes it's going to be lighter and yes it's going to be more efficient. A ram operating on 25-30psi is obviously going to consume less air than a ram operating on 50-80psi. That's just common sense.
    I will have to wait to feel that for my self.......

    Quote Originally Posted by geekwarrior
    time it took to make the manual (with the prototype frame no less) - 1/2 hour+

    time the manual will keep you strung along - 2 weeks

    time it would take to post a picture of a few finished frames - 5 minutes.



    watching people still try to defend garf: pitiful.


    /I lol'd when I saw the epoxy part...thought you guys bought a finished frame not a model airplane
    //hope I'm wrong in the end
    Very nice geekwarrior, i agree with you on most of that....


    Quote Originally Posted by LK-13
    good lord he got a "DEAR JOHN" email.....
    and was happy about it!
    LOL

    OK OK Again i'm sorry for bringing all the old stuff back up i was just late to the party. While i do have a good excuse at least my customers get real info and there guns back sooner than +9 months.... (sorry had too....) And i still worry about the off the self parts? The ram assemble looks pretty custom to me. What happens if it breaks or isnt workin properly? At least with the parts i sell you can get them just about anywhere....

    Cy
    Last edited by cyberave68; 08-08-2008 at 12:29 PM.
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  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by drg
    Actually USPS delivery confirmation now includes UPS-like tracking. Check it out.
    These packages use Canada Post tracking, which don't have live tracking, and have zero tracking once they hit customs. After customs, all you get is delivery confirmation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cyberave68
    I took alot of time learning how to do this and added what i thought would be better in the long run. That would be me engineering how the frame and parts would work best.
    Cy
    Yeah, as much as I look forward to an immediate comparison of the G-Force frame to a Cyberave or Pneumagger frame, I really wouldn't be satisfied until a few people played with it for about 8 to 10 cases of paint. Smack some barricades and collect some paint and shell with it.

    If the frames are still solid after that, then the buyers will have an interesting piece of mag history.

    Quote Originally Posted by robnix
    These packages use Canada Post tracking, which don't have live tracking, and have zero tracking once they hit customs. After customs, all you get is delivery confirmation.
    Which is only good for knowing that they delivered it and you don't have it.
    Last edited by Spider-TW; 08-08-2008 at 10:07 AM.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by robnix
    These packages use Canada Post tracking, which don't have live tracking, and have zero tracking once they hit customs. After customs, all you get is delivery confirmation.
    Ah, too bad. The guy I was replying to was talking about USPS delivery confirmation.

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    "2008/08/09 17:58 MARKHAM, ON Item accepted at the Post Office"


    Well, something is coming my way. I'll post photos as soon as it gets here. I am completely prepared to eat my words if this all comes though.

  7. #97
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    no reason to eat any words unless Garf can go back in time and deliver it on time....or go back in time an handle the whole situation better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilltop Customs
    no reason to eat any words unless Garf can go back in time and deliver it on time....or go back in time an handle the whole situation better.
    2nd

  9. #99
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    Nope, I hadpretty much doubted that any product was coming given the length of time this has taken and was looking into my legal options. When I open my box I'll take nice pictures and say I was wrong if it's all hunky dory.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by drg
    Talk about a completely irrelevant point. Trigger springs have been in use forever and suggesting that wear or breakage is a significant concern is quite frankly idiotic.
    LOL. Someone states that springs are better than magnets for return force. I state that springs break and wear. How is that completely irrelevant? It is a fact. Just because someone fails at doing something for a long period of time does not make it "right"

  11. #101
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    a slightly stiffer spring for the 3 way would have fixed the problem, and been easier/cheaper than milling spring pockets and supplementing with a large spring or magnet. Also a slightly stiffer spring in the 3 way would have been an internal part never seen, and never broken by the user. Hell even a small spacer placed behind the current spring might work(never took apart one of these 3 ways yet)



    I cant wait to see what the finished product looks like, I'll be watching for some pics.

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by MANN
    LOL. Someone states that springs are better than magnets for return force. I state that springs break and wear. How is that completely irrelevant? It is a fact. Just because someone fails at doing something for a long period of time does not make it "right"
    Who said they are better than magnets?

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilltop Customs
    a slightly stiffer spring for the 3 way would have fixed the problem, and been easier/cheaper than milling spring pockets and supplementing with a large spring or magnet. Also a slightly stiffer spring in the 3 way would have been an internal part never seen, and never broken by the user. Hell even a small spacer placed behind the current spring might work(never took apart one of these 3 ways yet)
    Well the benefit of having it external to the 3-way is that it is adjustable and removable. And I wouldn't doubt if simply stiffening up the 3-way would lead to more short-stroking issues.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by drg
    Well the benefit of having it external to the 3-way is that it is adjustable and removable. And I wouldn't doubt if simply stiffening up the 3-way would lead to more short-stroking issues.
    You mean less short-stroking issues. The problem with the spring in the MSV is that is so soft that it does not return the trig fast enuff or is not strong enuff to completly close between shots. I stronger spring or magnets is how you get rid of short-stroking the MSV and the valve....

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyberave68
    You mean less short-stroking issues. The problem with the spring in the MSV is that is so soft that it does not return the trig fast enuff or is not strong enuff to completly close between shots. I stronger spring or magnets is how you get rid of short-stroking the MSV and the valve....
    No, I meant more. I'm thinking keeping the switch activation pressure light and using an external spring or magnet return would be less prone to short stroking than increasing switch activation pressure to make up for the lack of an external return.

    But it's just a theory, have you tried putting a stiffer spring in the MSV? If so is it the same as using external return?

  16. #106
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    drg-I dont really consider a spring you have to cut, adjustable. If the frame included a spring tension set screw then it would be adjustable, but with the current setup if you cut too much off the spring you have to throw it away and get a new spring. Also if you adjust the trigger stops and 3 way activation point, you might have to get another spring because its now out of adjustment.

    the standard 3 way doesnt apply enough force to reset itself and return the trigger....currently we add springs or magnets to reset the trigger and allow the 3 way to reset itself. The exact same can be accomplished with a stronger spring in the 3 way that is capable of applying enough force to push the trigger back....the trigger would still feel the same as one with an additional external trigger spring. (also having the force to return the trigger generated by the 3 way spring has an added benifit: if the 3 way ever gets gummed up it will be more likely to work with a stronger spring than with the current light spring)

    I cant tell you if a stiffer spring or spacer would really work in one of these 3 ways though, as Ive never taken them apart.

  17. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilltop Customs
    drg-I dont really consider a spring you have to cut, adjustable. If the frame included a spring tension set screw then it would be adjustable, but with the current setup if you cut too much off the spring you have to throw it away and get a new spring. Also if you adjust the trigger stops and 3 way activation point, you might have to get another spring because its now out of adjustment.
    Well that's no harder than existing back-engineered solutions, but the built-in solution is a certainly a good thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hilltop Customs
    the standard 3 way doesnt apply enough force to reset itself and return the trigger....currently we add springs or magnets to reset the trigger and allow the 3 way to reset itself. The exact same can be accomplished with a stronger spring in the 3 way that is capable of applying enough force to push the trigger back....the trigger would still feel the same as one with an additional external trigger spring. (also having the force to return the trigger generated by the 3 way spring has an added benifit: if the 3 way ever gets gummed up it will be more likely to work with a stronger spring than with the current light spring)
    Is that just an assumption or empirical truth? I am aware of the operational considerations of the MSV, having a pneumag myself, but I wonder if making the switch harder to throw is indeed identical WRT shortstroking than applying that extra force to the trigger.

  18. #108
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    they both accomplish the same thing, applying more return force to the trigger, their method of action is extremely similar(one pushes on the trigger directly while the other pushes on a rod that pushes on the trigger) so I think its safe to assume that their effects would be the same. If it was me, Id rather have the added force go through the 3 way to make operation of the 3 way more reliable.

    Now the availability of a spring with a higher tension(K value) that is the same size of the current 3 way spring might be a problem, thats why I mentioned spacers earlier....pre-compress the spring a little and you will have your higher return force.

    just pulled apart an msv-2 and I see no reason whatsoever that it wouldnt work. there are 5 parts excluding the body...

    Rear screw->spring->o-ring pin->o-ring->activation pin

    the spring is about .2 in. and is a cone shaped, extremely light.

    Actually, I just tightened down the screw farther than what it was originally, and it increased the return force to the point I dont think there is any chance of short stroking....go figure

    edit: you can turn in the screw about 1 3/4 turns past flush with the body and it still works fine, anything past that the rear screw begins to interfere with the o-ring pin. Anyone ever do this in their mag? I only have an ep mag so I cant really try it in a working mag. I have 2 msv-2's here and you can definitely tell the difference between the one thats turned in and the one that isnt. It would be really interesting to see what a different spring would do.
    Last edited by Hilltop Customs; 08-12-2008 at 07:19 PM.

  19. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilltop Customs
    they both accomplish the same thing, applying more return force to the trigger, their method of action is extremely similar(one pushes on the trigger directly while the other pushes on a rod that pushes on the trigger) so I think its safe to assume that their effects would be the same. If it was me, Id rather have the added force go through the 3 way to make operation of the 3 way more reliable.

    Now the availability of a spring with a higher tension(K value) that is the same size of the current 3 way spring might be a problem, thats why I mentioned spacers earlier....pre-compress the spring a little and you will have your higher return force.

    just pulled apart an msv-2 and I see no reason whatsoever that it wouldnt work. there are 5 parts excluding the body...

    Rear screw->spring->o-ring pin->o-ring->activation pin

    the spring is about .2 in. and is a cone shaped, extremely light.

    Actually, I just tightened down the screw farther than what it was originally, and it increased the return force to the point I dont think there is any chance of short stroking....go figure

    edit: you can turn in the screw about 1 3/4 turns past flush with the body and it still works fine, anything past that the rear screw begins to interfere with the o-ring pin. Anyone ever do this in their mag? I only have an ep mag so I cant really try it in a working mag. I have 2 msv-2's here and you can definitely tell the difference between the one thats turned in and the one that isnt. It would be really interesting to see what a different spring would do.
    I might just give this a try

    In any event, my point is not that the solution is better or worse than others, only that it is an engineered-in solution, which many if not most DIY jobs don't have.

    I get the feeling that people are just looking for reasons to nitpick this frame based on the maker's business practices. Try to separate the two out.
    Last edited by drg; 08-12-2008 at 08:15 PM.

  20. #110
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    drg:
    I'm sorry if I came off nitpicking I'm not trying to, I just saw someone mentioned springs, and then magnets...I thought I would give an opinion of what I thought was a good alternate to both

    Every time Ive posted in these G-force threads Ive tried to be as unbiased as possible, when I did complain about Garf it was just for his poor business practices, or to try to quiet a special supporter of his recently....but Ive always tried to be respectful of everyone involved. I'm not going to post about possible flaws I see in the frame, unless someone starts experiencing problems related to those flaws. I mentioned the flaw in the spring design because you said about the adjust ability of the spring, and I thought it was relevant to point out how limited the adjust ability of the spring without a tension setscrew really is.

    I'm not trying to rain on the parade of these frames arriving, that is just mean to the customers who have dealt with all this customer service crap already. But you also have to watch out for supporting a product no one has received and therefore used, also.(not directly at you drg, but anyone who supports the frame before using it)



    -------------
    Just a little comment on the word engineered......this has drove me nuts since this frame was first described as engineered...

    Something that is engineered has every effort of many people to make sure there is not a single flaw, because if there is a flaw it will bring about huge ramifications.

    One engineer can design something and completely miss many flaws, bring in a second engineer and a high percentage of the flaws disappear, add a third and now your have a product that has been engineered. I doubt Garf himself would call this frame engineered, and if he did he is full of it....


    wow I type long responses when I'm playing video games...and I trimmed 1/2 of it out

  21. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilltop Customs
    Just a little comment on the word engineered......this has drove me nuts since this frame was first described as engineered...

    Something that is engineered has every effort of many people to make sure there is not a single flaw, because if there is a flaw it will bring about huge ramifications.

    One engineer can design something and completely miss many flaws, bring in a second engineer and a high percentage of the flaws disappear, add a third and now your have a product that has been engineered. I doubt Garf himself would call this frame engineered, and if he did he is full of it....

    wow I type long responses when I'm playing video games...and I trimmed 1/2 of it out
    Not to try to pick an argument, but not in common parlance. There is no set requirement for using the word in general discussion other than the operation using some engineer-like skill.

  22. #112
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    I work for engineering; so I'm really getting a kick out of a lot of these replies.

    /etc, etc
    On self-imposed ban. You know why. Good luck, AO.

  23. #113
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    According to the usps website, my frame should get to me within 2-3 days. I'll get pics and vids up as soon as I get it.

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  24. #114
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    never heard the saying "common parlance" be4....learn something new everyday



    If someone accepts the word engineered as having no set requirements, they shouldnt be using the word since it has no meaning to them. Ask an engineer what it means when they have engineered something.....then you have the definition.

    Its true that the definition may very depending who your talking to, but you should agree an engineered product should never dip below acceptable. Have the customers here found their frames acceptable so far? If the frame were engineered they wouldnt be 10 months late, engineering extends well in to product planning/shipping scheduling/delivery dates.

    What I posted earlier was my definition of engineered, as an engineer myself....I would never accept anything less. Engineers who do accept less are huge liabilities.




    Oh BTW if you try to tighten the msv-2, find a screw driver that fits the slot as tight as possible....and back the screw out a few turns first....then tighten it in about 1 3/4 turns past flush. The screw was REALLY tight at first and if you try to screw it in off the bat you may end up going too far without realizing and doing damage.


    warbeak2099, thats good to hear, have you talked to Garf anymore? any news if the rest of the frames are shipping?
    Last edited by Hilltop Customs; 08-13-2008 at 12:59 PM.

  25. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilltop Customs

    warbeak2099, thats good to hear, have you talked to Garf anymore? any news if the rest of the frames are shipping?
    I spoke to him yesterday. He didn't say anything about other frames, I only asked him about mine. He did talk about some other projects but I told him it's not worth it since no would be likely to buy anything from him again. It sounded like some really cool stuff though.

  26. #116
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    I wouldnt say no one would buy from him again, but I doubt anyone would pre-order after witnessing how badly Garf handled this fiasco.

  27. #117
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    When I spoke to him Garf said that he has been shipping frames for some time now and that most of the orders were from people who were not on AO, so that's why the masses aren't posting about getting their frames. He also said that he hadn't responded to the requests for photos for fear of people copying the design before he had a chance to deliver the product.

    Just passing along info...

  28. #118
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    Yeah, right.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilltop Customs
    I wouldnt say no one would buy from him again, but I doubt anyone would pre-order after witnessing how badly Garf handled this fiasco.
    I kind of hinted to him that if he does do it, it shouldn't be a pre-order. It's definitely something that people would be interested in though. He's basically got a mag valve shooting down to the last 350psi in a tank. He says it's got consistancy issues though so he's going to keep working on it.

  30. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by warbeak2099
    I kind of hinted to him that if he does do it, it shouldn't be a pre-order. It's definitely something that people would be interested in though. He's basically got a mag valve shooting down to the last 350psi in a tank. He says it's got consistancy issues though so he's going to keep working on it.
    He can keep his LP mag....IS Gforce really Smartparts? SmartMag anyone?

    Although I would like to see his hopper design....

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