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Thread: Paint to Barrel match= Total Accuracy?

  1. #1
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    Question Paint to Barrel match= Total Accuracy?

    Ok, I have been hearing many people saying that the only thing that makes a barrel accurate is the paint to barrel match, and I find that not true. How do you people come to these conclusions? If a plastic Talon barrel has perfect paint match with perfect BE paint, which is very unlikely to happen, then it would shoot just as accurate say, a Stingray 2(to make it fair) with a SP Teardrop barrel and perfect paint to barrel match? I think not. I have come to the conclusion from experience. I have a PMI Perfect 12" barrel for my Raptor, and a PMI Pursuite 14". Both are clean and matched to paint good. Now I go to the range, and I shoot off around 10 rounds with the PMI Perf, and none are hitting the target I'm aiming at. Well I go get my trusty, PMI Pursuite. I put it on there, chrono to 290. Shoot and I am getting great accuracy. Now I find that proof enough to say that the barrel and quality of the barrel, is just as much of an important factor to accuracy as paint to barrel match. So would anyone like to explain, what makes you or other people think that the only factor to accuracy is the match of paint to barrel, and leave consistancy out of this if you can.
    Sorry for the semi-long post. But realy I would like to know how people would come to this conclusion.

    PS: Here are a few smilies so you guys don't think I am tryin to flame people that think this or anything.
    You smell like dookie... No really though.

  2. #2
    I am sure you are right...I mean I know you did way more research on the topic than Tom Kaye or any other industry giant of paintball. I think I will sell my freak kit and go with a PMI pursuit on all my guns. Hey thanks for saving me from looking like an idiot. ......

    Ok now that that is done. What paint where you using the day you tried both barrels. I bet if you did a bore match test you would find that the PMI Pursuit had a better match. Anyway, the fact is that paint varries from hundreths to thousandths of an inch. So barrels should too. You want to keep the air behind the ball until it hits the atmoshpere. I hope this helps.


    oh yeah do a search!!!

  3. #3
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    I know that, the paint to barrel match has alot to do with the accuracy, I am just saying, that is NOT the ONLY factor there is.

    I was using PMI Premium for both barrel, which are the best paint for them both. And obviously, you did not read my plastic barrel theory hehehe.

  4. #4
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    it depends on barrel materals too, plastic can put massive spin on paintballs making them innacurate.
    SS and annoed alluminum barrels are smooth and put relatively no spin on the ball(i think brass too)

    as long as the barrel is smooth and clean and made well(not bent/scrached on the inside or anything) it will be accurate

    most barrel manufactures dont make bent/scrached or anything barrels so the quality of the barrel should always be good

    with your perfect barrel there could be many factors causing innacuracy(was it clean/and squeeged after a break, etc) or even poor manufacturing or a defect

    buy quality barrels and you shouldnt have to worry about that and then all you have to do is have your paint to barrel match

    i actually use really small paint that rolls out of my barrel but i still get decent accuracy just because the balls are really round and consistany(diablo)

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  5. #5
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    Actually the research does not indicate that paint to barrel match is all that important except in the extremes. It shows that balls going the same velocity out of the same barrel and the same size go about the same place no matter how closely they match as long as it is not way to big or small.
    Hitmanng

  6. #6
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    Paint quality is the biggest determinant, with perfect paint u could shoot it through a slightly larger barrel at 300fps and not notice a difference as long as your gun is consistent (ie releases same pulse of air with each shot).

    In reality paint is not perfect and paint barrel match is a case of making the best of a bad situation.

    You have got to work on getting quality paint. This is why whatever guns the pros carry looks more accurate, cos they get the best paint, with avalanche (for example) carrying e-mags everyone would sing about how accurate they are cos the paint would be quality.
    Bad Dave - Enigma UK

  7. #7
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    Originally posted by InfinatyBPS
    I know that, the paint to barrel match has alot to do with the accuracy, I am just saying, that is NOT the ONLY factor there is.
    The quality of the paint and how well the barrel was machined internally affect accuracy. I don't believe the "open bolt argument".

  8. #8
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    Originally posted by hitmanng
    Actually the research does not indicate that paint to barrel match is all that important except in the extremes. It shows that balls going the same velocity out of the same barrel and the same size go about the same place no matter how closely they match as long as it is not way to big or small.
    Hitmanng

    Perfect! I agree whole heartedly. A well made barrel with paint that will fit through it is essential. A well made barrel with paint that won't fit through it is as usless as a penis on a Back Steet Boy. A poorly made barrel is useless most of the time...reguardless.


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  9. #9
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    i have to agree with hitmang. Paint to barrel match only has a large effect at the extremes. there are many other factors that come into play and jsut claiming that paint to barrel match is the most important thing to think about is not that logical. We all see that it makes a difference at the extremes, but there is no research or evidence that proves that a +/- in .oo2 in diameter makes a a noticable difference (which is the logic behind the freak barrel system). Even if there was proof of this, you still need to prove that all the paintballs in one case don't vary mor than .002 from each other. I don't really think you can claim this without measuring the diameter of every ball in the case, but with the freak you run a few balls through the sleeve and decide all balls in the case are that size. As hitmang said, it makes a difference at the extremes, other than that it is a marketing ploy, in my opinion.

  10. #10
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    Originally posted by lazyrider77
    but with the freak you run a few balls through the sleeve and decide all balls in the case are that size.
    Exactly what I do. And if I get an odd one that is too tight I go with that next larger insert for them all...

  11. #11
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    so, cphilip, what makes you think that there aren't balls that are alrger than the one that is tight in the sleeve in your case? all you have determined is that the sleeve will be larger in diameter than the few balls chosen as the sample. how does this increase accuracy?

  12. #12
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    Talking

    You lost me on that lazy. Are you asking if cphilips big balls make him shoot more accurately??
    Hitmanng
    Forever newbie

  13. #13
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    He he...I'll never tell....

    No seriously my experience is that with good quality paint there is less often that one slightly irregular ball out of 20 or so and running about 15 or so usually finds one. Its not fool proof but just sliding two or three doesn't find it. In some...in fact a lot of... cases I do not get one at all and I am good to go. My point was that moving up one increment (in this case .002 from the fit taht is good and tight doesn't seem to be enough to affect it noticably. Now if I was to go way off it might start being noticable. Its the same with your fixed bore barrels. You hope that one in 20 or so irregular one is not so tight as to break in the barrel and the smaller ones are not too lose to fall out past the nubbin right? And then you get by. Idealy they are all about the same or withing .002 of each other and you don't have to deal with the extremes. I once had some Proball Seconds in yellow that were huge. Most of them I just barely managed to get through the biggest insert (.695). It was real tight. But they were for the most part regular in size and I got by with that with only a few breaks.

    Accuracy? I didn't say anything about that realy. I was discussing getting by without ball breaks from too large paint and by doing so and making a small compromise I didn't notice any accuracy change is all. Accuracy not being much affected by small degree's of bore change (irregularity in paint to barrel match in small degree's) was my observation and I think Hitmanngs point too.

  14. #14
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    well, i agree with you in most respects, the reason i was concerned with accuracy is because that is why people by the Freak. The myth is that the barrel to paint match increases accuracy. i understand your point about not breaking balls, but the same could be said of a player with two or maybe three (small,medium,large bore) barrels and this is why i think the freak is in some sense a marketing ploy. Although it would be cheaper to buy one freak with all inserts than three different size AA's. The problem is that people buy it becasue of supposed increaed accuracy, not less breakage. Lastly, i have a .696 Big Daddy on my Shocker that has i have used with all varieties and sizes of paint and have broken probably 4 balls in the last 15 cases. This leads me to believe that the match is not so great a factor in breakage, or at least not the most important one.

  15. #15
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    Although it would be cheaper to buy one freak with all inserts than three different size AA's.

    Yep! that is the primary reason. 8 Barrels for the price of two or three.

    The problem is that people buy it because of supposed incresed accuracy, not less breakage.

    Not nessicarily so...But if you are way off and this gets you closeer then it will indeed have less tendancey to "fly off" at wild angles. In the extremes was the point so yes at some point accuracy is improved by this system or any other barrel that gets you closer to a better match. Thats the key this is just another way of having multiple barrels. Some don't need all of them but they come with it for the price so might as well huh? CP makes a good set up too. There are others. But do not believe the hype. Try one of these and see. I was skepticle too. But I had an application for it so I gave it a shot. I needed another barrel or two anyway so I said "what the heck" I hope I don't get screwed! But I was truely satisfied and several others around me where sold too. They shot it and were impressed. They now own them and use them exclusively. I was convinced it had good application for my situation and it works well. So I use it.

    Lastly, i have a .696 Big Daddy on my Shocker that has i have used with all varieties and sizes of paint and have broken probably 4 balls in the last 15 cases. This leads me to believe that the match is not so great a factor in breakage, or at least not the most important one.

    Well gee I doubt they make paint bigger than .696! No wonder you do not have breaks with paint. You missunderstand. If you shoot a big paint through a little barrel it will break like heck! In your case you will hardly ever break a ball for too tight a fit. But many do. I didn't have one of those big bore barrels when I used the freak to get me to .695. I find that 90 percent of the time the paint I run into is .689. Its that cheap stuff or old stuff that kicks out to where I have to maybe use a big bore like you have. Quite frankly I now use mostly paint that seems fine at .689 so maybe I no longer need most of the other inserts? Maybe I'll just keep em in case? No you would not run into much problem with a .696 but I suspect you have other problems shooting med-small paint outa that thing.


    Fact is the Freak only makes sense if you run into a lot of "Widely" varied paint. And it only makes sense to buy the whole kit at $170 or so and be done with it. piece mealing it together ends up costing too much. Varied bore kits like all of these make sense for folks who are just setting up a "kit" and need a barrel anyway. And or those who want it for multiple gun applications. Liek the guys with a MAg and an old spyder. One kit two backs and he is good to go.

    I will say this. The observation that a lot of us had when we first tried the Freak were that it was indeed a bit more accurate than what we were shooting before (thats the important distinction). For me it was more like that it was at least as accurate as anything I had and I could now shoot that real big bore stuff I couldn't shoot before. And change my tip types and lengths was a plus. And even buy another base for another gun if I wanted too. That made it worth it for me. I will repeat waht I tell everyone. From my observations...it is at leasat as accurate as any other well made barrel properly matched to the paint. Here were were discussing degree's of what "properly" ment.

  16. #16
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    well, i will admit that the Freak may decrease ball breakage. But, i still feel that a .002 increase or decrease in bore sizedoen not dramatically effect accuracy and that matching the paint that accurately is not even possible. As you point out, it is as accurate as any other well made barrel. However, my point about having such a large barrel was that even with small paint it is still accurate and it doesnt; break paint. To me, this seems disprove the notion that you need a tight barrel to paint match to shoot accurately.
    However, i still can not say this for sure without owning a freak myself and then determining the results. so, i guess i will go to Smart Parts and ask them to give me one for free so that i can find out if it is effective or a scam and report this to the paintball world. i am sure they will be more than happy to comply.

  17. #17
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    Originally posted by lazyrider77
    However, i still can not say this for sure without owning a freak myself and then determining the results. so, i guess i will go to Smart Parts and ask them to give me one for free so that i can find out if it is effective or a scam and report this to the paintball world. i am sure they will be more than happy to comply.
    I'm sure they will! Good plan!!! Go for it... Oh trust me, if it was a complete scam and didn't shoot well you would have heard it from me already.

  18. #18
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    I got tired reading all that stuff,So i skipped it and came to a conclusion.....get a Smart Parts Feak w/ Stainless back,that way,u dont have to worry bouyt any thing,just as long as u gun is tuned for around field chrono,and u actually have paint,u dont gotta worry bout anything.
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  19. #19
    First of all, the basis behind this entire argument is that you are using similar paint in the same markers with the same pressure and everything else is identical. The only difference in fact is the barrels. In such an instance the paint to barrel match is crucial no matter how you slice it.

    Simply put, take a barrel with an exact internal diameter of .070 and put two balls through it. One is .691 and the other is .682.

    The first ball is going to travel substantially further and be more accurate simply because it hugs the walls of the barrel better then the smaller one.

    The smaller ball will actually end up being in contact with almost 82% of the entire barrel wall. This allows air to pass it on its way out of the barrel. This results in less air pressure behind the pellet during the initial, and most crucial, 6 inches of barrel where the maximum amount of veloctiy is reached.

    Unequal air pressure also means unequal force being placed on the ball at the moment of escape from the barrel. This means that the air moving faster past one side of the ball will create lower pressure on that side thereby allowing the ball to move not in a straight line but in the direction of the area of less pressure (see "basic principals of flight" for more information)

    That is the principal behind the Freak system. This way, when you go to field A that uses a very small paint like Diablo Hellfire which averages .683 you can just chage the insert that best fits it. You would see the benefit in this if your regular field uses RPS Premium, which can go as high as .691.

    As for the deal with checking just a few balls from each bag that also makes sense. Paintballs are made and packaged as they come off the line. This is a requirement for consistency. This way, one bad batch won't spoil a whole lot of paintballs. When you run just a few balls through your sleeve you are making an assumption that the rest of the balls are the same. That's taken for granted.

    Now, that all being said let me also make this one thing clear. We are trying to take a ball and move it in a straight line. Ball don't like to do that kind of stuff. And air pressure, both in the marker and without, can greatly effect their flight patterns.

    Okay. Now. How do I feel about it? I don't think that something like the freak system is really warranted if you constantly use the same type of paint. My field almost always has the same paint so I was able to finally find a barrel that fits it well but I do believe that paint-barrel match is a very important and integral part of paintball accuracy, provided everything else is equal.

    Return to the free market. Get rid of all government regulations and let society make it's own decisions. Time and again the relaxing of government regulations has increased profits, innovation and the economy.

  20. #20
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    The smaller ball will actually end up being in contact with almost 82% of the entire barrel wall. This allows air to pass it on its way out of the barrel. This results in less air pressure behind the pellet during the initial, and most crucial, 6 inches of barrel where the maximum amount of veloctiy is reached.

    Unequal air pressure also means unequal force being placed on the ball at the moment of escape from the barrel. This means that the air moving faster past one side of the ball will create lower pressure on that side thereby allowing the ball to move not in a straight line but in the direction of the area of less pressure (see "basic principals of flight" for more information)
    Actually your premiss is wrong. Based on the fluid dynamics and a sphere passing through air, there is a laminar flow area around the ball. This is based on the viscosity of the fliud (air), the size of the sphere (paintball), and the velosity of the sphere. I had a really good post before the crash but do not want to do the work and numbers again. The first post took hours of research. They say a picture is worth a thousand words so look at this.



    This shows the laminar and turbulent area of a sphere going through a fluid. This is further complicated due to the accelerant in paintball being air. We really do not know what happens in the barrel. We know if the barrel is way too big it bounces around a little I think a longer barrel might equalize this. My point is it is all conjecture.
    Oh well
    Hitmanng
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  21. #21
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    Hitmanng loves the Freak! j/k

    FYI: He and I and Yipe got into it real good over it way back then when they first came out. That was the good old days was it not guys?

  22. #22
    A well made barrel with paint that won't fit through it is as usless as a penis on a Back Steet Boy
    That quote is going in the Sig.
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  23. #23
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    Originally posted by Hasty8

    The first ball is going to travel substantially further and be more accurate simply because it hugs the walls of the barrel better then the smaller one.
    Really? What does "substantially farther mean" How much more accurate is it? This is the whole problem. You can conclude that one ball is going to fit better, we all know this. But where is the data showing how much more accurate this makes the paintball and how much farther it goes? This data does not exist. How much smaller is the group at what range? You don't know, for all we know the effect could be negligible. If you increase accuracy from 5 balls in an inch circle at 20 yards to 5 balls in a 3/4 inch circle at 20 yards, have you really gained anything? It doesn't even matter right now because we don't even have any data on the supposed increased accuracy.
    Furthermore, to say that it is ok to run a few balls through a sleeve is an accurate description of the whole case is not logical. Yes, paintball manufacturers have quality control, but when was the last time you saw a case of paint labeled as to the diameter? you don't see that, because each case has variations. the Freak limits you to .002' increments. So, when you measure a few balls, the implicit assumption is that no balls in that case vary beyond .002' of the representatives. this is just not true.
    as discussed earlier, the Freak may help you reduce ball breakge and that is very valuable, but i still think it is unwarranted to describe it as increasing accuracy over any other well made barrel.

    oh, and cphillip- i was in on those discussions back when the Freak came out, before AO moved to the new server. i remember arguing with you then and i was actually looking forward to getting back into it. i think the results of this discussion where much better though. so, thanks.

  24. #24
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    Oh yea! Now I remember. Was that fun or what! I think it started over a question of which to buy first the Warp or The Freak and it just went downhill from there into a Freak or not fight somehow. Me and Yipe got into it and I ended up having to apologize to him or something like that.

    ps: I won! He he he he he he he

  25. #25
    hitman...

    your example is flawed in that it assumes the "fluid" is traveling around the "object" equally.

    In a perfect fit situation this would not apply as the pellet would litterlly form a seal thus preventing any gas from escaping from behind the paintball.

    With an imperfect fit, where there is a gap between the paintball shell and the internal wall of the barrel this will allow for pressure drop off. Why? Because the gap allows air to escape. The aire will be presented with less pressure at that point because it does not need to push the paintball as well so it can flow around the paintball thereby creating a zone of lower pressure (faster traveling air creates less pressure)

    As for test data I'll do some testing this weekend using paints of different diameter on the same barrel in the same marker at the same pressure. It may turn out that I'm completely wrong but if I remember my physics right a better seal in the barrel may translate into better accuracy and distance. Of course, the only way to truly test that is to do it in a vacuum because we are trying to move a sphere through a gas which is not that easy at all. Wind patterns could have an adverse effect on game play as I am sure we are all aware.

    My point is that paint to barrel match is very important. While the difference may be negligable there is a definate boon in having an accurate, or at least moderately close, paint to barrel match.

    Long story short, you do not want to be shooting .682 diameter paint through a Taso Eliminator alum barrel which has an advertised bore of .691. It would be like rolling a spitball downthe barrel of a tank.

    I'll post the results of my "tests" in the tech forum, if I even get a chance to do it this weekend.

    Lazyrider - You're right. The difference may be negligable. Hopefully we'll have a better idea after I get a chance to test my hypothesis.

  26. #26
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    look, Hasty, as i said earlier, i shoot all varieties of paint through a .696 AA on a shocker and don't notice substantial difference with any of them.
    i think your tests are going to be flawed, as you said they need to be done in a vaccuum. how are you going to ensure exact same conditions every shot? if these resutls can't be replicated in the real world, what is the point of them anyway?

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