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Thread: The Mystery frame from Tunaball3

  1. #481
    Considering how my round 2 cheater functions in my intelliframe without any return aids, I think the emag magnets attracting to the frame screw will be more than enough for return with a cheater.

    My cheater is fast as hell and I'm not getting any short strokes.

  2. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by zondo
    I know... I thought I read somewhere about using both for trigger return in cyber's kit. The prototype was setup that way, I believe. The Cheater setup can't use a mag mod, only the top trigger magnets.

    EDIT: although I forgot that Zap added the return spring.
    i like the idea of fabricating up a plate to mount the magnet mod

  3. #483
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    Quote Originally Posted by smeek
    Considering how my round 2 cheater functions in my intelliframe without any return aids, I think the emag magnets attracting to the frame screw will be more than enough for return with a cheater.

    My cheater is fast as hell and I'm not getting any short strokes.
    Yeah, after playing around with my Cheater a little more, I feel like the only thing that really needs to be adjusted is the upper trigger stop. The trigger rod travel to fire is pretty small. I guess I that would diminish the effect that magnets would have on the return if the distance between the magnets was too far.

    Meh, that's what I get for thinking out loud...

  4. #484
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    Quote Originally Posted by zondo
    Yeah, after playing around with my Cheater a little more, I feel like the only thing that really needs to be adjusted is the upper trigger stop. The trigger rod travel to fire is pretty small.

    Meh, that's what I get for thinking out loud...
    so you have used both the cheater and the cyber kit
    which do you like best?
    best performance that is...

  5. #485
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwood
    so you have used both the cheater and the cyber kit
    which do you like best?
    best performance that is...
    I haven't had a chance to use the Cheater in the M-90 (ran out of air). I have a video in the pneumag pic thread of it in my Iframe. Out of the box (so to speak) I like the Cheater set up. But I haven't really set up my trigger stops to their final spots and I'm still playing around with the trigger rod length in my Cyber kit.

    I think the Cheater has the shorter pull length though.

  6. #486
    Quote Originally Posted by zondo
    Yeah, after playing around with my Cheater a little more, I feel like the only thing that really needs to be adjusted is the upper trigger stop. The trigger rod travel to fire is pretty small. I guess I that would diminish the effect that magnets would have on the return if the distance between the magnets was too far.

    Meh, that's what I get for thinking out loud...
    I still need to get an M90 so you know more than I know with this setup. I was replying more to cougar than you.

    Of course as soon as I say I'm not getting short strokes... but now I'm out of air so I'm blaming needing oil and low air now.

    What LPR are you using? I picked up an Evil LPR off ebay for cheap but thinking of changing that to a micro rock not sure I trust this one.
    Last edited by smeek; 12-18-2009 at 10:21 AM.

  7. #487
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    Quote Originally Posted by smeek
    I still need to get an M90 so you know more than I know with this setup. I was replying more to cougar than you.

    Of course as soon as I say I'm not getting short strokes... but now I'm out of air so I'm blaming needing oil and low air now.

    What LPR are you using? I picked up an Evil LPR off ebay for cheap but thinking of changing that to a micro rock not sure I trust this one.
    I'm using a tickler... I think Shirow is using a micro rock.

  8. #488
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    I explained this to zondo the day I met him, do not be disappointed about the pneumag preformance and don't blame your valve or the LPR for short stroking. Usually it is YOU!

    In an electro there is this little thing called dwell. This is the time lapse where the board resets waiting for the next trigger pull. In a pneumag there is no board to help you with lazy fingers. Short stroking is most likely happening due to your fingers overlappping, not allowing the ram to travel back completely to rest postion. To verify this pull as fast as you can with one finger only. If you are short stroking then it could be your valve, the LPR or not enough clearance between the sear and the ram. This may keep the on/off and sear from re-setting. If the gun fires as fast as you pull the trigger with one finger then it is you. Walking a pneumag is someting that needs to be learned and practiced. Some can do it and some can't.

    When setting the ram position on a pneumag I usaully leave 1/8" to 3/16" gap between the ram and the sear. This is to similuate or create dwell.

    I also believe the problem that most are experiencing with the Cheater is exactly this. Zap sets these with almost zero clearance between the ram and the sear. I am also concerned about the plastic ram. Mag valves are relatively hard on things and I feel that the plastic ram will be the weak link in the Cheater. Only time will tell though.

  9. #489
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loguzzzzzz
    I explained this to zondo the day I met him, do not be disappointed about the pneumag preformance and don't blame your valve or the LPR for short stroking. Usually it is YOU!
    So far, the only thing I'm disappointed in is my lack of air... now, if I only had a small compressor that would fill my tank at home.

    John, this and tuning info needs to be put into ONE thread. Data mining the tech threads is taking more time than I thought for info.

  10. #490
    Quote Originally Posted by Loguzzzzzz
    I explained this to zondo the day I met him, do not be disappointed about the pneumag preformance and don't blame your valve or the LPR for short stroking. Usually it is YOU!

    In an electro there is this little thing called dwell. This is the time lapse where the board resets waiting for the next trigger pull. In a pneumag there is no board to help you with lazy fingers. Short stroking is most likely happening due to your fingers overlappping, not allowing the ram to travel back completely to rest postion. To verify this pull as fast as you can with one finger only. If you are short stroking then it could be your valve, the LPR or not enough clearance between the sear and the ram. This may keep the on/off and sear from re-setting. If the gun fires as fast as you pull the trigger with one finger then it is you. Walking a pneumag is someting that needs to be learned and practiced. Some can do it and some can't.

    When setting the ram position on a pneumag I usaully leave 1/8" to 3/16" gap between the ram and the sear. This is to similuate or create dwell.

    I also believe the problem that most are experiencing with the Cheater is exactly this. Zap sets these with almost zero clearance between the ram and the sear. I am also concerned about the plastic ram. Mag valves are relatively hard on things and I feel that the plastic ram will be the weak link in the Cheater. Only time will tell though.
    Completely understood, I'm know the short stroking is my fault on the trigger and I can't be sloppy with pulls. It's not that I think the LPR is a problem, I just don't know if I like feeding it ~850 psi directly and expecting it to reliably reduce it to the lowest pressure possible. I figure the lower the operating pressure is the quicker it can vent.

  11. #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by zondo
    I'm using a tickler... I think Shirow is using a micro rock.
    Once mine arrives I will be I'll let you know how it is.
    Superbolt

  12. #492
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    Re: Loguz

    I am also quite concerned about the plastic.. knowing how the mag works, I worried that over time it would crack, break or be worn down.

    I'm guessing it will become a replaceable part over time as they start to be destroyed.. maybe someone will make an SS version or something.

    I guess we will see.

  13. #493
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    question about round 2

    any ideas on when it's going to happen?

    I'm trying to get my budget timeline figured out so that i will have all parts in hand when my m-90 comes to my door.

  14. #494
    I was told about a month out on the next round.

  15. #495
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    I told Scott to relay this idea to Magnus when I tried the proto-type:

    Using an E-Mag trigger would allow the rod that contacts the MSV-2 to pull the rod away from the MSV-2 and have "constant contact" with the trigger rather than give more friction in the slot where the rod goes and holds the MSV-2 open.

    Think about it,.. the magnet in the trigger would pull the rod back at the rate that the trigger is returning which, in theory, is the matched speed you are pulling the trigger.

    This should solve alot of that problem.

    Some one thin down an E-Mag trigger to fit the frame and try it

    ~ P8nt
    _______________________
    Jai "P8ntbal4me" Menard

  16. #496
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loguzzzzzz
    I am also concerned about the plastic ram. Mag valves are relatively hard on things and I feel that the plastic ram will be the weak link in the Cheater. Only time will tell though.
    I was thinking of modding mine to look like the Logic Ripper ram piston with a flat headed machine screw threaded into it.

    I figured that would solve the problem before it started.

    ~ P8nt

  17. #497
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    Quote Originally Posted by p8ntbal4me
    I told Scott to relay this idea to Magnus when I tried the proto-type:

    Using an E-Mag trigger would allow the rod that contacts the MSV-2 to pull the rod away from the MSV-2 and have "constant contact" with the trigger rather than give more friction in the slot where the rod goes and holds the MSV-2 open.

    Think about it,.. the magnet in the trigger would pull the rod back at the rate that the trigger is returning which, in theory, is the matched speed you are pulling the trigger.

    This should solve alot of that problem.

    Some one thin down an E-Mag trigger to fit the frame and try it

    ~ P8nt
    That would only work with a steel rod. Most of the cyberave68 kits have aluminum rods these days so the magnet would be useless. I have never had the rod alone keep the MSV-2 activated but I suppose it is possible. The mag-mod would probably override the rod friction and with the less weight of an aluminum rod, that friction would be greatly reduced.

  18. #498
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    Quote Originally Posted by p8ntbal4me
    I was thinking of modding mine to look like the Logic Ripper ram piston with a flat headed machine screw threaded into it.

    I figured that would solve the problem before it started.

    ~ P8nt
    That is a pretty good idea... you want to try on yours first?

  19. #499
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shirow
    That is a pretty good idea... you want to try on yours first?

    Im ordering some triggers,... for some new products coming out.

    I might grind one down to try it.


    Loguz: Either that SS rod or a Alumn. one with a small SS cap in the end of it.

    Either way,.... I figured this would solve the drag issue.

  20. #500
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loguzzzzzz
    The mag-mod would probably override the rod friction and with the less weight of an aluminum rod, that friction would be greatly reduced.
    time to go polish my rod...

  21. #501
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loguzzzzzz
    That would only work with a steel rod. Most of the cyberave68 kits have aluminum rods these days so the magnet would be useless. I have never had the rod alone keep the MSV-2 activated but I suppose it is possible. The mag-mod would probably override the rod friction and with the less weight of an aluminum rod, that friction would be greatly reduced.
    I just trimmed a wire brad nail to size. Would work with that.

  22. #502
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    P8nt.

    I mean no disrepect but have you ever set up a pneumatic frame before?

    I have to ask because you are spending a lot of time and discussion on something that rarely, if ever occurs.

    The first time I ever had a problem with the MSV-2 staying partially activated was on my ZX. The problem there was that the angle of the Z grip trigger adds weight to the trigger that is cantelevered out. This added weight kept the MSV-2 from closing cleanly everytime. My solution at that time was to add a spring to the actuator rod for the MVS-2. The problem was sloved. The next Z grip I did I installed the mag-mod and that cured it that time.

    I believe that in a normal installtion in an Intelli, Vert or Y grip there is no real issue.

  23. #503
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    Grr... I just need to get my tank filled so I can play around with it again.

  24. #504
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    just a design question that is way late to the party?

    Would it be possible to mill the bottom of the frame to accept dovetail mount asa's?

  25. #505
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    Toss a low profile rail on it. Someone might cut you for doing it

  26. #506
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  27. #507
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loguzzzzzz
    P8nt.

    I mean no disrepect but have you ever set up a pneumatic frame before?

    I have to ask because you are spending a lot of time and discussion on something that rarely, if ever occurs.

    The first time I ever had a problem with the MSV-2 staying partially activated was on my ZX. The problem there was that the angle of the Z grip trigger adds weight to the trigger that is cantelevered out. This added weight kept the MSV-2 from closing cleanly everytime. My solution at that time was to add a spring to the actuator rod for the MVS-2. The problem was sloved. The next Z grip I did I installed the mag-mod and that cured it that time.

    I believe that in a normal installtion in an Intelli, Vert or Y grip there is no real issue.

    Yes I have,.. and none taken.

    I was just adding in my suggestions passed on to a few others when this topic about the friction on the actuator rod occurs. It seemed that no one brought it up, so I added my thoughts in the process to see if someone would venture to taking it to the next level beyond just a thought.

    The idea was pushed to me a few years ago by Rob Clippard,... figured the thought had some merit to it if we could apply it to the problem if or when it became an issue.

    The issue with the Z-Grip and Y-Grip is like you say,.. in the trigger, not the MSV-2. So be careful not to cross what Im saying with I talk about "drag" on the actuator rod. You would best solve the Z and Y grip problems as you said,.. however,.. in the respect of the possible problem with the actuator rod binding up the MSV-2 because it adds push weight to the assembly,... I figured the E-Mag magnet idea brought up would solve that said issue 100%.

    ~ P8nt

  28. #508
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    So geeked... preorder in for batch 2...

  29. #509
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  30. #510
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    Still interested in a V2 Tunablade

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