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Thread: The Cocker guys have all the fun..

  1. #1
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    The Cocker guys have all the fun..

    Resurrection, Nemesis, Niche, Empire sniper, 3 types of Kryptonite bodies, FLE body, and abundance of after market parts. Those guys are having all the fun, seriously. As a mag guy I feel like we are left out of all of this 'new stuff' fun. The Automag market is very soft. Why is that?

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    To make matters worse, Simon is behind most of those things.... come back to the light and show us some love, Simon!

  3. #3
    I'm guessing because the cost of building mags is generally a little higher. Which makes custom runs of products riskier for someone to make. I think if Simon were to produce some mag parts they would sell well enough. I don't believe it would be enough to broaden the overall mag market much though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigEvil View Post
    Resurrection, Nemesis, Niche, Empire sniper, 3 types of Kryptonite bodies, FLE body, and abundance of after market parts. Those guys are having all the fun, seriously. As a mag guy I feel like we are left out of all of this 'new stuff' fun. The Automag market is very soft. Why is that?
    Since I'm directly involved with Niche & the Nemesis. Alot has to do with funding. There isn't a single point of funding in the automag community. This leave pre-orders the only real choice. As much as I hate pre-orders and get anxous as hell having everyones money when things get delayed. I simply cant afford to spend $5-15K for parts in advance.

    I could do more projects but refuse to. I am keeping things to one project at a time. I will not get so buried with projects, work & family that I do what VD did. Yes it slows the flow of new product but its more stable I believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by dboggs79 View Post
    I'm guessing because the cost of building mags is generally a little higher. Which makes custom runs of products riskier for someone to make. I think if Simon were to produce some mag parts they would sell well enough. I don't believe it would be enough to broaden the overall mag market much though.
    In all reality they are similar. Depends on the part. Nothing in either gun is rocket science. It really is that the automag community is a much smaller sales base which limits the amount you can sell.
    Example: the Niche cocker frame is far simpler then a M86 Automag frame.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by cougar20th View Post
    It really is that the automag community is a much smaller sales base which limits the amount you can sell.
    Is that really true? I see considerably more mags on the field compared to cockers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by splat15k View Post
    Is that really true? I see considerably more mags on the field compared to cockers.
    Some people say the opposite..

    From Simon's forum

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    None that I know of.

    Somewhere around 80% of the cocker gun bodies I make are actually built into Sniper Pump guns.

    If I go to a big game I will see a decent number of cockers, seeing a mag is rare, and it's usually someone I know. I would say there are easily 100 to 1 (if not way more) cocker/sniper body based guns in use than mags.

    I just can't see selling 100 of a mag based gun body, even in a year.


    Yeah, we kinda hijacked that thread
    http://inceptionforums.com/showthrea...s-helmet/page4

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    AGD might not be dead, but the metrics laid out in that thread are indisputable - Empire has produced what, 60,000 Axe markers... there's bound to be a market for 150 bodies of various designs.

    While I'm sure the number of AutoMag valves out there is probably staggeringly high, its been... what, 11 years? 12? since the Xmag and the Xvalve hit the market.

  8. #8
    i feel like when it comes to dealing in parts for mags, i'm transacting with the same people over and over again. when it comes to cocker stuff, i'm dealing with a much larger group.

  9. #9
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    I agree with Cougar, the Automag community is smaller than the cocker market. Simon and whoever can make cocker parts and they can be made into pumps or semis. With pump being on an upswing and the Sniper platform being so popular I can see people wanting to put their time and money into that.

    Aside from myself and a few members on here I don't see any mags locally. I do however see people shooting Autocockers occasionally and more people shooting pumps than that.

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    I agree the cocker base is way higher than mag. I personally blame marketing. Not agd specifically. But from a sales point a cocker was a better sale for a local field/shop. Selling all the nich parts. And then getting paid to re tune the gun when the owner Fed it up. Far more return than our mags that. 20 years later get an Oring kit. And maybe a bolt and sear. And they are top end and hang with the rest of the new stuff in every aspect of the sport except for maybe tourney / high end speed ball. Me personally my 96 era automagRT has never made me feel I was in a disadvantage at any point since I purchased in in the LATE 90s.

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    How many of XMT's ULE MM bodies sold? How many of VD's bodies sold? I don't think that we would be able to sell 100-200 Automag bodies, which is how many Inception is selling depending on the body.

    I agree that the customer base is larger for cockers than mags which obviously leads to a bigger following in the aftermarket. I'm usually the only mag shooter at my field. I won't see another mag until I hit up a big game or AO / BEO event.

    We end up owning both anyway...

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by BigEvil View Post
    Resurrection, Nemesis, Niche, Empire sniper, 3 types of Kryptonite bodies, FLE body, and abundance of after market parts. Those guys are having all the fun, seriously. As a mag guy I feel like we are left out of all of this 'new stuff' fun. The Automag market is very soft. Why is that?
    Its a simple numbers game really. While i do enjoy making automag parts the market is dead and has been for 10 years. Its hard to Justify investing thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours to design/prototype a product only to have it fail or sell a dozen parts....case in point the shockwave body or even a better example is the classic RT body that allowed you to run an x valve to drop weight. 25 people were all for that and i didnt sell a single one.LOL Its almost laughable.

    Im getting ready to turn the 5 axis mill loose on some stuff for you guys soon....watch the paintball talk section this fall/winter. a new product just may show up.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by cougar20th View Post
    Since I'm directly involved with Niche & the Nemesis. Alot has to do with funding. There isn't a single point of funding in the automag community. This leave pre-orders the only real choice. As much as I hate pre-orders and get anxous as hell having everyones money when things get delayed. I simply cant afford to spend $5-15K for parts in advance.

    I could do more projects but refuse to. I am keeping things to one project at a time. I will not get so buried with projects, work & family that I do what VD did. Yes it slows the flow of new product but its more stable I believe.



    In all reality they are similar. Depends on the part. Nothing in either gun is rocket science. It really is that the automag community is a much smaller sales base which limits the amount you can sell.
    Example: the Niche cocker frame is far simpler then a M86 Automag frame.

    And Bud and Jeff play a big part....

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xmagterror View Post
    Its a simple numbers game really. While i do enjoy making automag parts the market is dead and has been for 10 years. Its hard to Justify investing thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours to design/prototype a product only to have it fail or sell a dozen parts....case in point the shockwave body or even a better example is the classic RT body that allowed you to run an x valve to drop weight. 25 people were all for that and i didnt sell a single one.LOL Its almost laughable.

    Im getting ready to turn the 5 axis mill loose on some stuff for you guys soon....watch the paintball talk section this fall/winter. a new product just may show up.
    I really wish I could afford to fund you. You have made quite a few parts id love to have. But I can't. And wanting something doesn't pay the man that builds the product.

  15. #15
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    Simons watermark is selling at least 100 parts.

    That is just unrealistic in the mag community.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xmagterror View Post
    Im getting ready to turn the 5 axis mill loose on some stuff for you guys soon....watch the paintball talk section this fall/winter. a new product just may show up.
    Can't wait to see what you cook up next.



    We may not get as many new shiny things as the cocker guys do, but I think we still get quite a lot. And most of what we get is really nice.

    Honestly, if we got more than what we get now I couldn't buy as much of it as I'm now able to.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by going_home View Post
    Simons watermark is selling at least 100 parts.

    That is just unrealistic in the mag community.
    It not totally unrealistic. But its not something that's gonna happen all the time in the mag community. Its gotta be the right part at the right time.

  18. #18
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    i'm having plenty of fun with my pile of automags. besides, there are plenty of trinkets to be had between luke, cougar and xmag. more if you count other custom parts (rpg, vd, etc) or general parts like ccm or dw.

  19. #19
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    It would be nice to see a body that breaks the mold of the AGD ULE "standard".... Like a body that uses more common and less obtrusive detents and a non-threaded feedneck (see renie's unibody concept).

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by splat15k View Post
    It would be nice to see a body that breaks the mold of the AGD ULE "standard".... Like a body that uses more common and less obtrusive detents and a non-threaded feedneck

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by cougar20th View Post
    Since I'm directly involved with Niche & the Nemesis. Alot has to do with funding. There isn't a single point of funding in the automag community. This leave pre-orders the only real choice. As much as I hate pre-orders and get anxous as hell having everyones money when things get delayed. I simply cant afford to spend $5-15K for parts in advance.

    I could do more projects but refuse to. I am keeping things to one project at a time. I will not get so buried with projects, work & family that I do what VD did. Yes it slows the flow of new product but its more stable I believe.



    In all reality they are similar. Depends on the part. Nothing in either gun is rocket science. It really is that the automag community is a much smaller sales base which limits the amount you can sell.
    Example: the Niche cocker frame is far simpler then a M86 Automag frame.
    Yeah, i wasn't saying the design or manufacturing of the parts was any different. Just saying that a complete mag will probably cost more than a cocker build of the same caliber (same anno and whatnot).

  22. #22
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    I've had a cocker & there's alot of excess meat to play with. But honestly, once you ul a mag there's not alot of Alum left to go mill crazy with. You got to have slugs even to do any milling at all. No one I know of offers a carbon fibur bodies for a cocker. And with all the CF available you'd need to chain down a Mag so it won't float off the table. One drawback to a pump mag is just finding the parts.
    I took the road least traveled...now where the hell am I ?

  23. #23
    The only cockers or mags I see at my field are the ones I'm loaning people or have sold them.

    I get looks both ways these days.

  24. #24
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    Mags just cost more to build , Xv200 , body 100 , Rail 40 , Gf 80 , Fg 20 , so 440 for a base model ,,,

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Runamok View Post
    I've had a cocker & there's alot of excess meat to play with. But honestly, once you ul a mag there's not alot of Alum left to go mill crazy with. You got to have slugs even to do any milling at all. No one I know of offers a carbon fibur bodies for a cocker. And with all the CF available you'd need to chain down a Mag so it won't float off the table. One drawback to a pump mag is just finding the parts.
    It's called circumcision that usually takes care of the extra meat

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Runamok
    One drawback to a pump mag is just finding the parts.
    I have an RT pump setup for sale.
    My sydarm weighs less than yours!!!

  27. #27
    Similar thread was shut down on MCB not too long ago.

    Seriously, someone saw fit to re-release a sniper, a mech autococker, a Trracer, and even a new mech Vibe. You read that right. That's not a typo, and I'm not writing historical fiction. A REVOLUTIONARY NEW MECH VIBE. Let that one sink in for a bit.

    But a new mag? IMPOSSIBRU.
    "Accuracy by aiming."


    Definitely not on the A-Team.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoatBoy View Post
    Similar thread was shut down on MCB not too long ago.

    Seriously, someone saw fit to re-release a sniper, a mech autococker, a Trracer, and even a new mech Vibe. You read that right. That's not a typo, and I'm not writing historical fiction. A REVOLUTIONARY NEW MECH VIBE. Let that one sink in for a bit.

    But a new mag? IMPOSSIBRU.
    Not for $200 though

  29. #29
    I still want an aluminum power feed twistlock classic body

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoatBoy View Post
    Similar thread was shut down on MCB not too long ago.

    Seriously, someone saw fit to re-release a sniper, a mech autococker, a Trracer, and even a new mech Vibe. You read that right. That's not a typo, and I'm not writing historical fiction. A REVOLUTIONARY NEW MECH VIBE. Let that one sink in for a bit.

    But a new mag? IMPOSSIBRU.
    One thing you are forgetting.......... You have never NOT been able to buy a new mag. All the others you hadn't been able to buy new for quite some time. This thread is kinda comical to me. Considering there are a handful of guys that have went out of there way to design stuff and build it because people were yelling wanting it. But when the product was there. Did they buy it? Autocockers have been well known that X part was an upgrade from factory. And also like it or not. All the cockers moving parts are a visual appear. Yet a potential mechanical nightmare for most. A mag on the other hand was designed on day one with simplistic function in mind.

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