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Thread: How many times can an autococker cycle per second?

  1. #91
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    Originally posted by Grey_Goose


    Also, is anyone doing shot or dwell lower than 6?
    El Pirata from PBC is running his FF race at 4 on both shot and dwell.
    Mine are in the 8 range, with 17 and 18 for CTC and CTO. My load time is 40, which gives me a BPS of 11.5ish according to the program.

    I hit around 9 in bursts, I've never outrun the gun as I just don't shoot that fast.

    I guess I could set it to FA and do it... but what's the fun in that?

    DR
    Oderint dum metuant

  2. #92
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    "electro" Doesn't really effect the operation of the gun. Just the trigger feel. the "electro" parts are just how soem people here are choosing to measure their guns.

    (GP) On most of the electro setups I've seen on cockers, one of the biggest limitations to cycling speed is the air flow through the 4-way/5-way valve or the barb fittings for the tubing. Same often holds true with mechanical setups as well.


    right now we know that a cocker can fire more than 20 times a seccond with palladins testing. So I suppose we are just down to the ponit of gettign a reg that can recharge that fast (the stabilizer can do 20... )

    (GP)Keep in mind that force feeding is required to go over about 10-12 bps. The Stabilizer will provide adequate air supply for 30 bps or more at about 500 psi if the gun is properly tuned and operating efficiently but the automation system components and fittings also have to be able to keep up.


    I'm wondering waht fatter hoses will do for how fast the gun can be made to cycle.

    (GP) Fatter hoses may help a tad bit but the flow restriction for the automation is in the fittings/hose barbs and the size of the air passages in and out of the 4-way. Many of the 4-way valves currently on the market have very small holes (.050" or less)for the o-rings on the spool to pass over in the body of the valve and only .040" to .050" air passage thru the barb fitting. Common tubing used on 'cockers is .062" ID.

    Currently I just crank up the pressure on my rock to keep the gun cycling as crisply as I like. (I use that term becasue that's the way the gun feels when a LPR is adjusted "right" Just like the blazer)

    (GP) With the "buit-in" format of the automation components of the Blazer and the hi flow design of our 4-way, it does not suffer from flow restrictions at all so the pressure from the Rock can be kept lower and maintain high cycle speed. Less wear and tear on the 4-way and ram plus generally smoother operation.
    Also, as an adendum to something that TK posted earlier
    with his calculations of pressure requirements for 300 bps rate; He stated that the 'cockers use a 1/4" bore ram but that is only partially true. Stock rams and most aftermarket rams for the 'cocker (including our QuikRam) are 3/8" or 10mm. There is one company out there marketing a 1/4" bore ram for the 'cocker but it is just too small to do the job properly as it requires too much pressure to cycle the gun effectively and overworks the seals on the other components.

    Hmm... still need to build a test rig... [/B][/QUOTE][B]
    Glenn Palmer aka Paladin
    Do it right or don't bother.

  3. #93
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    Not very likely.

    Originally posted by einhander619
    90 bps sounds a little more plausible, still nuts, though!

    (GP)While it may be possible for pneumatic automation to function at 90 cycles per second, I don't think it very likely that a 'cocker can be made to do it if it is asked to fire the same as it would if shooting paint. That would be asking the valve to deliver enough air to get the ball to speed 5400 times per minute. (high speed, single barrel firearms can get up to about 1200 RPM but then the action has quite a bit farther to move too) Seems to me that if you add up the time it takes to move the sear; for hammer travel; for valve dwell, ram travel both ways and feeding, even with force feeding, there doesn't seem to be enough milliseconds to go around. Also, the bolt would have to be moving so fast that it would likely break every ball it tried to slap into the barrel. Maybe "Perfect Circle" plastic balls could stand it but I doubt normal paint would.

    I think I'm going to forward this thread to my physics prof, he'll probably make a test question out of it. Even if a cocker did 90 bps, it probably couldn't sustain it for more than a few seconds before it would simply fly apart!

    (GP) Probably not fly apart real quick if built half way decent; and with a buffered ram to absorb some of the shock force of the reciprocating mass. However, you couldn't expect much in the way of longevity. :-)

    Now, Tom, I didn't do the math, but following your example, 90 cycles a second would take something on the order of around 600 psi input pressure to the ram, correct?

    (GP) I think you will find that flow rate will be more of a factor to high cycling speeds than pressure numbers are.
    It only takes about 10 pounds of force to cycle the action against the hammer spring and a standard 10mm ram will acomplish that at about 80 psi. LP pneumatic components are typically rated to 150 psi. Once you have enough force to overcome resistance, you only need adequate flow rate to get it done quickly. For example: Consider a big, pneumatic jack hammer (say a 90 pounder commonly used in construction) They cycle extremely fast, something near 4000 blows per minute (66 per second) but air input is very high volume at only about 125 to 150 psi.

    So much for low pressure...
    Well, "low pressure" (depending on where you draw the line) is not all that it is hyped up to be anyway. The concept is certainly better for marketing than it is for shooting paintballs most effectively out of most paintguns.

  4. #94
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    Originally posted by MrMag
    it is SO hard to get a cocker over 9pbs. now i admit that i dont own one. but i have tried my friends old one, and the trigger and bolt just wont allow u to fire anything close to what er has stated. i am not a math/physics wizz like tk, but i can say this with complete assurance. this could be different w/ a racegun however.
    It is not difficult at all to get a 'cocker to cycle faster than 9-10 bps but getting the human nervous system to operate faster is another story.
    At 50+ years old, My nervous system operates at about 7 bps
    (maybe 8bps when the game is on and adrenaline is up)
    while my 25 year old son can shoot the same gun at about 12 bps.

  5. #95
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    Correction

    Originally posted by nerobro
    IIRC the piston in a stock cocker is 3/16" not 1/4" That changes things singifigantly. the only ones with the 1/4" or smaller are the clippard minirams...
    The piston diameter in a stock 'cocker is 3/8"-.375" .11 sq in. Same as the original clippard ram that was std on older 'cockers.
    The miniram marketed by ANS is 6.5mm -.255" bore .049 sq in.
    The Palmer QuikRam is 10mm -.393" bore .121 sq in.
    The bore size of the ram used on Blazers and Typhoons is 7/16" or .412" = .133 sq in

    With equal pressure and air passage sizes a larger bore will be just a tad slower moving as it takes slightly longer to fill the area behind the piston to get it moving. On the other hand, it will start moving before full pressure is reached behind it because of more force generated by the larger surface area. Thus, a larger bore takes much less pressure to do the same job and with adequate flow potential will move more than fast enough.
    Then to soften and speed up the return stroke, we put an extra large shaft in it to reduce the surface area of the back of the piston.
    With full use of the S.W.A.G method(scientific, wild assed guess) I estimate the maximum cycling speed of pneumatic automation (pneumation)and a dual acting linear cylinder/ram in a paintgun is going to be around 40 to 45 cycles/shots per second with compressed air/N2 and 30 to 35 with CO2.
    The sad part is that eventually we will have a feed system and the understanding of how to reach such insane rates of fire with our paintguns; but what will we gain in doing so? More potential for serious injury? More anger and revenge on the field? More battered newbies that won't come out again? More disgruntled veterans (like myself) that truely loved the game of Paintball but find it lost to the to the games of Paintgun or Painball? (really miss the good old days when "Game" was the general topic of conversation in the staging area and the usual measure of a players skills. These days it is hard to find a conversation that doesn't revolve around the equipment and/or how much paint you can throw in a 5 min match or how many times you can hit someone before they can call themselves out)

    Sorry, I'll get off my soap box now.

  6. #96
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    /me waves at Glenn


    DR

  7. #97
    The piston diameter in a stock 'cocker is 3/8"-.375" .11 sq in. Same as the original clippard ram that was std on older 'cockers.
    The miniram marketed by ANS is 6.5mm -.255" bore .049 sq in.
    The Palmer QuikRam is 10mm -.393" bore .121 sq in.
    The bore size of the ram used on Blazers and Typhoons is 7/16" or .412" = .133 sq in
    Glen- you da man, but you already knew that.
    Thanks for posting this info.. I think its very useful for people to understand differences in pneumatic systems.
    Also, I did not realize the QuikRam was designed with a larger shaft.. iv often wondered why this wasnt done (which it has for years, apperantly!) more often.. makes life so much more easier to setup a pinch-before-chop system.

    out!
    ColinMoritz

    Chord, Chord V2, Dallara, Karta, current project: (coming soon)

  8. #98
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    God I am SO glad Glen is here!!

    AGD

  9. #99
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    Glen-
    I totally agree with you view on the sport...
    I find myself talking more about money spent and how much paint I lay down now much more than what I did when I played pump woods games. I really kick myself for it, but Paintball has evolved into a 'Rice Whore' sport. The more flashy you and your gun are.. the more influence you have on hte people around you.



    OK sorry to get off topic. Back to the cycling.
    Pnematic systems have their limits, as Glen described. Maybe the air in the lines between the 3 way and ram could be replaced with a water/oil driven hydraulic mini system? make it a bit heavier but the rate of actuating would be faster and mroe powerful than air. So basically we would be pushing water with air from a reg.. dunno if that limits anything or not. But dyed green water in clear tubes on a front block would own. (again with the flashiness)

  10. #100
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    Originally posted by AGD
    God I am SO glad Glen is here!!

    AGD
    Howdy folks,
    I really like the way this forum lets you know when someone has responded to a message. Helps me keep in touch even after being away for awhile.

    Was out of the country for the last 7 weeks. Thailand is a wonderful place this time of year. Very hot usually, but if can stay near water or in the mountains it isn't bad at all.

    I'm going to try to help get one of the Thai teams here to the US for some tournaments. They too are stuck on speedball and glitsy equipment but man-o-man can they play ball and VERY honorably too. The air-bunker fields are perfectly suited to them and they are going to surprize the hell out of the top teams hear. (They don't play much in the woods/jungle there because ther are a few too many evil critters to deal with.)
    Palmers Pursuit is likely to have a branch office in Thailand in the not too distant future. hehe

    Any chance AGD will be at the big Scenerio Game at Skirmish, PA next month ? If not, will see you at the IOA in August.

  11. #101
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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Vegeta
    Glen-
    I totally agree with you view on the sport...
    I find myself talking more about money spent and how much paint I lay down now much more than what I did when I played pump woods games. I really kick myself for it, but Paintball has evolved into a 'Rice Whore' sport. The more flashy you and your gun are.. the more influence you have on hte people around you.

    Glitz doesn't impress me at all generally, and I really get a kick out of the guys that look down on my plain looking equipment with a 12 oz CO2 tank stuck on it. However, it is always quite gratifying when I here "Damn you Palmer" as they are walking off the field.


    OK sorry to get off topic. Back to the cycling.
    Pnematic systems have their limits, as Glen described. Maybe the air in the lines between the 3 way and ram could be replaced with a water/oil driven hydraulic mini system? make it a bit heavier but the rate of actuating would be faster and mroe powerful than air. So basically we would be pushing water with air from a reg.. dunno if that limits anything or not. But dyed green water in clear tubes on a front block would own. (again with the flashiness)
    [/QUOTE

    Air driven hydraulics would be too slow for our needs. Liquid is too dense to move that fast and the storage and recovery harware needed to capture what is vented from the ram whan it changes directions would have to be pretty complex.

  12. #102
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    Originally posted by nicad


    Glen- you da man, but you already knew that.
    Thanks for posting this info.. I think its very useful for people to understand differences in pneumatic systems.
    Also, I did not realize the QuikRam was designed with a larger shaft.. iv often wondered why this wasnt done (which it has for years, apperantly!) more often.. makes life so much more easier to setup a pinch-before-chop system.

    out!
    The QuikRam has a 10mm bore with a 3/16" shaft (others use a 1/8" shaft)
    On the Blazer, we use a 7/16" bore and a 1/4" shaft. Closing force is about 40% less than opening force and about 20% faster close that open. The Blazer will usually stop on a miss-feed instead of cut it.

  13. #103
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    OK lets look at is this way:

    Say you have a line of metal balls that are set on a table in a straight line one milimeter apart. Now you have the same leght of balls, but few balls, and they are placed further apart- kinda spaced out. Now if you took your finger and pushed on the balls spaced one millimeter apart.. the ball line moves better becuase hte balls are right next to each other, therefore it does not take time for hte balls to travel to each other. Now if you goto the spread out balls, and push hte first one, it takes longer becuase the balls has to travel further than one milimeter.

    The idea here is that the close together balls are liquid water, and the spread out balls are air. yes, water is heavier and more dense than air, but the water moulecues are much much closer together. for every molecue of water that is mover, one on the opposite end of the string moves too the exact distance, becuase the particles are so close together. Now in air, the particles are much further apart and therefore takes more force to move and object becuase all thsoe partcles have to move to 'build up' enough pressure to move the ram (or whatever)



    That is my analysis. Take it and run.

  14. #104
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    Originally posted by Vegeta
    OK lets look at is this way:

    Say you have a line of metal balls that are set on a table in a straight line one milimeter apart. Now you have the same leght of balls, but few balls, and they are placed further apart- kinda spaced out. Now if you took your finger and pushed on the balls spaced one millimeter apart.. the ball line moves better becuase hte balls are right next to each other, therefore it does not take time for hte balls to travel to each other. Now if you goto the spread out balls, and push hte first one, it takes longer becuase the balls has to travel further than one milimeter.

    The idea here is that the close together balls are liquid water, and the spread out balls are air. yes, water is heavier and more dense than air, but the water moulecues are much much closer together. for every molecue of water that is mover, one on the opposite end of the string moves too the exact distance, becuase the particles are so close together. Now in air, the particles are much further apart and therefore takes more force to move and object becuase all thsoe partcles have to move to 'build up' enough pressure to move the ram (or whatever)



    That is my analysis. Take it and run.
    The principal that you are working withis that a liquid cannot be compressed.

    Problem is that you forgot that the cylinder has to be evacuated on each opposing stroke and the liquid would take much longer to refill the chamber to move the cylinder. Again, getting through the fittings is the slow down. Due to viscous friction.

  15. #105
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    I was thinking having the area where hte water is completely sealed, and havign a ram push water on one end to push water on the other. The same would work with a vacuum in the tubes. but im talking serious component and it would be too bulky to run... hmmm just brainstorming dont kill me.

  16. #106
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    Originally posted by Vegeta
    I was thinking having the area where hte water is completely sealed, and havign a ram push water on one end to push water on the other. The same would work with a vacuum in the tubes. but im talking serious component and it would be too bulky to run... hmmm just brainstorming dont kill me.
    That is why I put in the first post about it:
    "Liquid is too dense to move that fast and the storage and recovery harware needed to capture what is vented from the ram whan it changes directions would have to be pretty complex." Very complex and yes, quite bulky.

    However, it is fairly common knowledge that "high speed" automation and hydraulics don't mix. Simply the nature of the beast. The benifit of hydraulics is the shear force that can be generated with high pressures and the stability of the media that cannot be compressed.
    I have a high speed production screw machine in my shop that is air and hydraulic automation. Air provides the control logic and sequence indexing automation but all cutting tool movement is hydraulic with slow steady movement for high precision. Another machine for more heavy duty machining is all hydraulic and it far slower operation.

  17. #107
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    Originally posted by nicad
    Death to Vegeta!!!
    Na. We don't need him dead. His thinking and "brainstorming" process just hasn't matured yet.

    Besides, to me its fun to see how other people think stuff up. Keeps me on my toes.

  18. #108
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    ok ok i see. I was thinking along the "give a partice, take a partice" line.. which is true but doesn't work for hte reason you have stated. desisty.

    I would really like to seee exactly how the air gets flowing when the gun is shooting at high ROF.. almost fast enough to where the air is just being puched back n forth by the 3 way, possibly cuaseing a small amount of air to be 'stuck' in the center of the tubing between the ram and 3 way.. what would be neat would be to run water through the block (hear me out) and them go through a cycling process, puming high pressure water into the reg, not air. And dye the water in the inlet to the ram tube blue, and hte outlet, red. then see the reation.

    That would be very neat.

  19. #109
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    oh and I don't haev the vast knowledge and resources that some of you do! I'm going off of stuff in books... I'm only a freshman.. they don't teach you stuff like this in school.. you have to learn it on your own.

    If you wanna see some of my more *intelligent* work it's best to look back in Deep Blue at other topics. This whole cocker thing I am not too great at. Never owned one before.

  20. #110
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    I would really like to seee exactly how the air gets flowing when the gun is shooting at high ROF.. almost fast enough to where the air is just being puched back n forth by the 3 way, possibly cuaseing a small amount of air to be 'stuck' in the center of the tubing between the ram and 3 way.. what would be neat would be to run water through the block (hear me out) and them go through a cycling process, puming high pressure water into the reg, not air. And dye the water in the inlet to the ram tube blue, and hte outlet, red. then see the reation.

    That would be very neat. [/B][/QUOTE]

    Two ways to see what you are looking for that I know of.

    1) Put a small water tank that can handle about 100 psi or so, between the regulator and the 4-way. (yes 4-way valve, not a "3-way") A few ounces of colored liquid should be sufficient. Connect the line from the regulator to the top of the tank and the line to the 4-way to the bottom of the tank. Pressure from the reg will force water to the 4-way and out to the ram until the tank is empty. Be prepared to get wet as the water vents from the ram and out of the 4-way.

    2)Make an adapter fitting to connect your household water to supply (typically about 50 to 60 psi) directly to the input of the 4-way. Put some colored water in the hose and connect it to the faucet. Back out the adjuster on the reg completely so it isn't putting out any air and the water pressure should be enough to cycle the gun but it will be slow.

    Have fun.

  21. #111
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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Vegeta
    [B]oh and I don't haev the vast knowledge and resources that some of you do! I'm going off of stuff in books...

    "Knowledge and resources" are both just a matter of time and experience if you keep your head screwed on straight.

    Keep it simple (K.I.S.S). This stuff only gets complicated when engineers get involved.

  22. #112
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    The funny thing is that on the racegun forums ( http://www.racegun.dk ) we've been discussing the best ram for the race cocker, and the majority say the quickram. I'm switching mine out soon... I currently have a STO ram. I'll let you know if it's actually faster.

    DR

  23. #113
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    Originally posted by DarkRipper
    The funny thing is that on the racegun forums ( http://www.racegun.dk ) we've been discussing the best ram for the race cocker, and the majority say the quickram. I'm switching mine out soon... I currently have a STO ram. I'll let you know if it's actually faster.

    DR
    I'm already sure that the QuikRam is faster but it will be interesting to see just how much so. I don't have the means to actually measure in millisecond increments.
    If nothing else, the slightly larger shaft on the QuikRam means that less volume of air has to be vented during extension and less volume is also needed for retraction.
    In addition, the air passage thru the hose barb fittings on the QuikRam is slightly larger as well; to allow for faster air flow into the ram.
    On the other hand,the control valve (5-way?) or it's output fittings may also be a limiting factor as was the case with the early kit the we got from Racegun. The ram cannot move any faster than the air flow that it gets from the valve. If there is not adequate flow thru the valve, unfavorably high pressures are needed to compensate.
    Last edited by Paladin; 06-24-2002 at 11:00 AM.

  24. #114
    Glenn-
    dmcbr900rr made this observation over in the racegun fourms..
    If anyone is interested, I just changed out my Shocktec ram with a Palmer Quick ram and my opening times went from 40 mS down to 25 mS. I have had three different Shocktec rams on my marker and they all were the same opening times.
    The time he is refering to there is the time it takes for the ram to open the bolt/hammer to catch the sear.

    I think the Racegrips are awesome for timing such activities.. gives you a real feel for whats going on and when..

    out!

  25. #115
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    Originally posted by nicad
    Glenn-
    dmcbr900rr made this observation over in the racegun fourms..

    The time he is refering to there is the time it takes for the ram to open the bolt/hammer to catch the sear.

    I think the Racegrips are awesome for timing such activities.. gives you a real feel for whats going on and when..

    out!
    VERY interesting. I'm actually a bit surprised it is that much faster. Nearly 40%. KEWL !!!
    (pats self on the back)hehe Thanks
    Now we'll wait and see how many others get similar results before I can start bragging.
    I wonder what the reduction in close time is going to be?

  26. #116
    Paladin-

    From my experience the Quick Ram is faster than the Evo by 2-10ms for the open. Normally we see 25-35ms for the open with the Quickrams. The only ram that is close is the older STO rams.

    Josh
    "If you build it they will run" - pbjosh
    MM006610 bought new in '94. One owner.
    http://itspaintball.com For Pneu Ideas

  27. #117
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    Originally posted by pbjosh
    Paladin-

    From my experience the Quick Ram is faster than the Evo by 2-10ms for the open. Normally we see 25-35ms for the open with the Quickrams. The only ram that is close is the older STO rams.

    Josh
    Thanks. Those numbers are more like I would have expected; to put it in the 10-20% faster range.
    Have you got any test numbers on close time ?

  28. #118
    Originally posted by Paladin

    Palmers Pursuit is likely to have a branch office in Thailand in the not too distant future. hehe
    Ive been looking for an excuse to move back... need a tech for the office?

  29. #119
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    Originally posted by billynup


    Ive been looking for an excuse to move back... need a tech for the office?
    If you can understand and speak Thai I may just be able to give you the "excuse". If all goes well, it would be about a year away.
    Please E-mail me to glenn@palmer-pursuit.com

  30. #120
    Paladin-

    Close times are harder to test. But I have tested the Close time (it takes alot of paint and time shooting F/A) and for the most part all the Rams close about 10-20% lower than the open time. Of course that means more testing. I will be tightening up my time on the Half-Block I have (with good old Palmer Front Pneus) and let you know how it does.

    Billynup-

    Sorry boy, you are staying.

    Josh

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