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Thread: How many times can an autococker cycle per second?

  1. #121
    pbjosh-
    wouldnt it be easier to test the close times MY way? MuHAhaha!

    MY way..

    saves paint and air.. and the environment! well.. maybe.. ah what the heck.. screw the environment!
    ColinMoritz

    Chord, Chord V2, Dallara, Karta, current project: (coming soon)

  2. #122
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    Josh....

    What inline regs can keep up with the Race @ 14bps?

  3. #123
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    A unireg should come close.. given that the AIR can keep it up at 16bps (Accordign to the oddyssey paintball videos of the hyperframed AIR vavled mag) The Stabilizer can handle 20 bps (or thereabouts according to the AGD gun dyno) thanks glen for that magic peice of hardware ;-)

    and... let's hope that the Rt inline reg is actually going to show up sometime.
    To be an AGD supporter, one cannot be an AGD bigot. -Nero

    Truth is a complex thing. One must govern by simplicity. -M. Mercier, special counsel to his Majesty for domestic matters. The Brotherhood of the Wolf

    "You can't outrun Death forever, but you can make the bastard work for it."


  4. #124
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    I have a angel minireg and it's horrible. It fluctuates madly... I need either a Stabe or a Sidewinder.

    Nothing against the guys at Pro Paintball, their gun is excellent. You can only do so much with the WDP minireg design though.

    DR

  5. #125
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    Originally posted by ES13Raven
    Josh....

    What inline regs can keep up with the Race @ 14bps?
    The Stabilizer can easily handle 14 bps out of any paintgun that I know of and do it with a VERY narrow range of variation. Just as long as the input flow and pressure into the reg is sufficiently higher than what is needed buy the gun.
    Glenn Palmer aka Paladin
    Do it right or don't bother.

  6. #126
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    Glen...

    When you say the Unireg is a 35:1 rated regulator, and the Stabilizer is a 70:1 rated reg, how did you test that?

  7. #127
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    Originally posted by nerobro
    A unireg should come close.. given that the AIR can keep it up at 16bps (Accordign to the oddyssey paintball videos of the hyperframed AIR vavled mag) The Stabilizer can handle 20 bps (or thereabouts according to the AGD gun dyno) thanks glen for that magic peice of hardware ;-)

    and... let's hope that the Rt inline reg is actually going to show up sometime.
    I really don't like to be contradictory to the AGD gun dyno but do believe that it's results given for a test of the Stabilizer to be just a tad on the conservative side.
    I have a rig here that I built in 1991 called the Grinder. Simply put, it is 3 closed bolt guns (Hurricanes actually)mounted side by side in a box that are crank operated and cam lobe activated. Each has it's own automation system but a single Rock reg supplies the air control for all three guns and a single Stabilizer controls the main supply to the whole rig from a single large CO2 tank. When I get that baby going, it is easy to reach the 30 bps range with all three guns spitting paint and The Stabilizer has never had a problem keeping up. Even with CO2, which moves a bit slower than compressed air does.
    As I've stated before, my ways are quite old fashioned but I've seen the results for myself and repeated it numerous times. Therfore it leads me to believe that a 20bps capability for the Stabilizer is significantly understated.
    Can't wait to see how test comparisons come out against the RT vertical reg.

  8. #128
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    Originally posted by ES13Raven
    Glen...

    When you say the Unireg is a 35:1 rated regulator, and the Stabilizer is a 70:1 rated reg, how did you test that?
    Simple mathematics. surface area of the plunger compared to port diameter of the valve seat.

  9. #129
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    Glenn,
    When watching the test, I think the issue was that the stabe can hit that range before only partially recharging to the origional pressure before the next shot.

    Shootdown or starvation are not always the next logical step. On spring/hammer driven markers, there is a fixed force being imparted on the valve. However, as the pressure within the valve drops, the force resisting the hammer lessens, valve dwell/WO time increases. I haven't reviewed this thread in awhile. If this has been disputed, by all means rip me to shreds.

    As for buying an RT vertical reg... I'd be hard pressed to give up my stabe... it depends on whether the input is on the bottom or not. :P
    [*img]http://userpic.livejournal.com/11885469/469200[/img]
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  10. #130
    "RT vertical reg"... whats this yall are refering to? have I been sleeping too long?
    Arent most all of AirAmerica's vert/inline/main regs built from AGD reg parts?

    Also Glenn- the ratio you mentioned.. doesnt that depict how much the reg's output will vary based on input pressure?
    ie- 70:1 means for every 70psi variance on the input, 1 psi variance on the output-- due to the air pressure on the surface area of the exposed valve seat.

  11. #131
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    Originally posted by thei3ug
    Glenn,
    When watching the test, I think the issue was that the stabe can hit that range before only partially recharging to the origional pressure before the next shot.

    Shootdown or starvation are not always the next logical step. On spring/hammer driven markers, there is a fixed force being imparted on the valve. However, as the pressure within the valve drops, the force resisting the hammer lessens, valve dwell/WO time increases. I haven't reviewed this thread in awhile. If this has been disputed, by all means rip me to shreds.

    As for buying an RT vertical reg... I'd be hard pressed to give up my stabe... it depends on whether the input is on the bottom or not. :P
    I understand what you are saying and your depiction of the valve operation is right on. Also, correct about starving not always being the case. However,higher pressures and flow potential to the input of most regulators, does in fact increase the output flow rate potential of the regs valving. On a two stage regulation system, the cure for starvation is often to increase the output pressure from the primary reg. Style and positions of fittings, hose length, the air passages in the gun itself, etc etc. all have a particular bearing on recharge rates and often times more so than the reg itself.

    Something to consider about the regs with the input line on the bottom: That style of regulator relys on the regulated air to close off the valve instead of backing off the plunger and spring to let he valve close. Much better suited to the hydraulic or liquid environment that they were originally designed for. A liquid, that cannot be compressed can hold the valve closed more effectively and consistently than a flexible volume of air/gas.
    Last edited by Paladin; 06-25-2002 at 03:58 PM.

  12. #132
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    Originally posted by nicad
    "RT vertical reg"... whats this yall are refering to? have I been sleeping too long?
    Arent most all of AirAmerica's vert/inline/main regs built from AGD reg parts?

    I think you are right about the parts. The biggest advantage of the RT reg over the older versions is the much larger plunger diameter. Now 3/4" as opposed to the original 1/2" diameter plunger.

    Also Glenn- the ratio you mentioned.. doesnt that depict how much the reg's output will vary based on input pressure?
    ie- 70:1 means for every 70psi variance on the input, 1 psi variance on the output-- due to the air pressure on the surface area of the exposed valve seat.
    That is exactly right and the varience is inverse. Meaning that as the input supply pressure goes down the regulated output goes up and vice versa; in that ratio equal to the dimensioning.

  13. #133
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    Originally posted by Paladin
    However,higher pressures and flow potential to the input of most regulators, does in fact increase the output flow rate potential of the regs valving. On a two stage regulation system, the cure for starvation is often to increase the output pressure from the primary reg.
    Glen,
    Does this apply to the Govnair/WDP style of reg?

  14. #134
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    Originally posted by ES13Raven
    Glen,
    Does this apply to the Govnair/WDP style of reg?
    It applies to any pressure control device that I know of.
    You just can't get any more air out of a reg than what you put into it.

  15. #135
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    Originally posted by Paladin

    You just can't get any more air out of a reg than what you put into it.
    Most definitely noted.

  16. #136
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    Originally posted by Paladin
    Something to consider about the regs with the input line on the bottom: That style of regulator relys on the regulated air to close off the valve instead of backing off the plunger and spring to let he valve close. Much better suited to the hydraulic or liquid environment that they were originally designed for. A liquid, that cannot be compressed can hold the valve closed more effectively and consistently than a flexible volume of air/gas.
    Is this why the Govnair/WDP minireg has a not-so-great recharge rate? (I'm assuming you are not talking about the MacDev Gladiator)

  17. #137
    That is exactly right and the varience is inverse. Meaning that as the input supply pressure goes down the regulated output goes up and vice versa; in that ratio equal to the dimensioning.
    Righto.. except in the opposing-type regs (Govnair/WDP/WGP), the varience is direct relation. kind of interesting...

    You just can't get any more air out of a reg than what you put into it.
    WHAT?!?! ok thats it im giving up all my beliefs.. heheh

  18. #138
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    Originally posted by ES13Raven
    Is this why the Govnair/WDP minireg has a not-so-great recharge rate? (I'm assuming you are not talking about the MacDev Gladiator)
    Quite honestly, I can't address the recharge rate of the WDP mini because I haven't yet disected that particular model for analysis.
    What I mentioned about the "In-line" style regs is more focused on consistency and stability. Recharge rate is more an issue of flow rather than the functional design of the valve. That is unless there is a flow restriction is at the valve itself. A too small valve seat/orifice or too low supply pressure can/will limit output flow potential and increase the time it takes to fill the valve chamber.
    I'm not familiar with the Gladiator reg either but if it of the design that uses input on one end and output at the other with the same valve format as the others. It too is likely to have the same limitations to actual consistency.
    Simply the nature of the beast. It is a design best suited for liquid and patterened after the regulators used in hydraulic and fuel pressure control systems.

    You kind of have to keep in mind here that I do a lot of work to accomodate the radical environment of CO2. When regulating CO2, operational inconsistencies become much more noticeable. Also, the density of CO2 is such that extra considerations are needed to allow for adequate flow speed and volume and those same considerations provide even better control and speed with HPA/N2.
    Last edited by Paladin; 06-25-2002 at 06:42 PM.

  19. #139
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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by nicad
    [B]
    Righto.. except in the opposing-type regs (Govnair/WDP/WGP), the varience is direct relation. kind of interesting...

    That is because the supply input on "In-line" reg is trying to hold the valve open while the input on a reg like the Stabilizer is holding the valve closed.

  20. #140
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    This is one of the best discussions on regs I've ever read... informative but in a way that isn't taken right out of a science textbook with all sorts of diagrams and mathematical equations that mean diddly squat to me.


    DR

  21. #141
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    dr read it a couple of times and then see how you feel
    orangejulius

  22. #142
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    LOL



    No seriously.

    Paladin, have you tested a Sidewinder to compare to a Stabilizer? I'm down to those two for my next reg for my Racegun... the WDP reg just doesn't hack it. 850 input and my FPS fluctuates up to 10 FPS with fresh paint.

    Thanks!

    DR

  23. #143
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    Originally posted by DarkRipper
    LOL



    No seriously.

    Paladin, have you tested a Sidewinder to compare to a Stabilizer? I'm down to those two for my next reg for my Racegun... the WDP reg just doesn't hack it. 850 input and my FPS fluctuates up to 10 FPS with fresh paint.

    Thanks!

    DR
    I don't do that sort of comparison testing. Not my style. I tested numerous formats during the development of my regs long ago (1988, when a reg suitable to the application simply did not exist) and landed on the one I found to work best.
    I only test my own work to make sure it meets the demands.
    Thus, evey item that we build becomes an opportunity to try to find a way to make the next one better.
    I have expressed the benifits of various designs in previous posts. Simply put; the design format used in the Rock and Stabilizer regulators is better suited for air/gas pressure control than the "In-line" valve format used in the Sidewinder and other similar regs that function best in a non-copressable, liquid environment.
    Last edited by Paladin; 06-26-2002 at 11:19 AM.

  24. #144
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    Originally posted by Paladin

    As I've stated before, my ways are quite old fashioned but I've seen the results for myself and repeated it numerous times. Therfore it leads me to believe that a 20bps capability for the Stabilizer is significantly understated.
    Can't wait to see how test comparisons come out against the RT vertical reg.
    maybe I should share tom's comment from that night. "wow, i'm going to need to call glen on monday" This was at 3am sunday morning after playing CCP till close :-)

    This does bring up another point..... *suggests the thread be split into a new regulator discussion thread.... * What pressure is the grinder running? My cocker (the gun that was tested) was running 450psi according to the dyno. I honestly had no idea what it was running.... Gah, we could just solve all of this with a few hours on the gun dyno and a pile of inline regs ;-)

    that brings up another point.. have you seen the recharge rate on the crossfire regs? the guage ALMOST does what the guage did with the stabilizer.

    glen, when we hooked up your reg (the stab) and fired it on an an angel, the guage we put inline.. jumped UP then settled back to the regulated pressure ;-) it was quite shocking.

  25. #145
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    Originally posted by Paladin
    Simply put; the design format used in the Rock and Stabilizer regulators is better suited for air/gas pressure control than the "In-line" valve format used in the Sidewinder and other similar regs that function best in a non-copressable, liquid environment.
    Good enough. Thanks Paladin.

    DR

  26. #146
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    Originally posted by nerobro


    maybe I should share tom's comment from that night. "wow, i'm going to need to call glen on monday" This was at 3am sunday morning after playing CCP till close :-)

    This does bring up another point..... *suggests the thread be split into a new regulator discussion thread.... * What pressure is the grinder running? My cocker (the gun that was tested) was running 450psi according to the dyno. I honestly had no idea what it was running.... Gah, we could just solve all of this with a few hours on the gun dyno and a pile of inline regs ;-)

    that brings up another point.. have you seen the recharge rate on the crossfire regs? the guage ALMOST does what the guage did with the stabilizer.

    glen, when we hooked up your reg (the stab) and fired it on an an angel, the guage we put inline.. jumped UP then settled back to the regulated pressure ;-) it was quite shocking.
    How long ago was it that TK was going to call me ?
    I've had a couple conversations with him about our regs; both on the phone and here at my shop. The look on TK's face and first comment, the first time he came into my shop was priceless. My shop is not at all like what most people expect to see.
    I've got 500 psi of CO2 going into the Grinder from a remote Stabilizer. The line and fittings from the Stabilizer to the distribution manifold had to be enlarged to allow adequate flow but the gun valves are supplied through standard tubing and fittings with 1/8" diameter air passages.

    The crossfire reg is a good unit but close only works with with horseshoes and hand grenades.

    On the Angel/Stabilizer test; at what point did the pressure spike ? On initial charge up or during use? On initial charge up, a reg with dry (lacking lubrication)plunger o-ring will commonly spike somewhat because the o-rings tend to stick to the sidewall of the tube a bit and requires a little extra pressure to get it going initially. Especially if it has been setting unused for awhile. If during use, spikes can be caused by even a minute dust partical caught in the valve and seal when it cycles. The trick is to use a valve design and seal material that will shed the garbage regularly gets through the air supply lines. Teflon tape and/or debri from fitting sealants causes many such problems. We see that sort of thing a great deal in the front regs on cockers. People unscrew the old reg from the front block and install the new one without cleaning the port. The new installation pushes the garbage back into the port and as soon as you cycle the gun, the debris is promptly pushed right into the regulator valve and then out to the 4-way. You might be surprised at the trouble that a very small shred of teflon tape can cause.

  27. #147
    We see that sort of thing a great deal in the front regs on cockers. People unscrew the old reg from the front block and install the new one without cleaning the port. The new installation pushes the garbage back into the port and as soon as you cycle the gun, the debris is promptly pushed right into the regulator valve and then out to the 4-way. You might be surprised at the trouble that a very small shred of teflon tape can cause.
    Glenn- a little off topic (but hey.. did someone say something an autotocker cycling..?) , was wondering why yall didnt put filters in the necks of the Rock regs to reduce/eleiminate this sort of problem? I believe the Shocktech regs come with filters in them..
    later-
    Colin

  28. #148
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    Originally posted by Paladin
    How long ago was it that TK was going to call me ?
    I've had a couple conversations with him about our regs; both on the phone and here at my shop. The look on TK's face and first comment, the first time he came into my shop was priceless. My shop is not at all like what most people expect to see.
    Um... it was the last day of the supertour... last fall I think. he went to your shop after that, i saw pics... it's like my bedroom ;-)

    I've got 500 psi of CO2 going into the Grinder from a remote Stabilizer. The line and fittings from the Stabilizer to the distribution manifold had to be enlarged to allow adequate flow but the gun valves are supplied through standard tubing and fittings with 1/8" diameter air passages.
    Wow, I didn't know that much engineering went into that little toy of yours. now if we could only get the RT blazers *grins*

    The crossfire reg is a good unit but close only works with with horseshoes and hand grenades.
    They were using guages simmilar to what we used when we first looked at the stabilizer... then we put it on the dyno for the real results. Just so you know I have 900 going into my stab, and 450 coming out. I get a 3fps range over the chrono, usually less.. but it depends a lot on the paints shape ;-)

    On the Angel/Stabilizer test; at what point did the pressure spike ? On initial charge up or during use? On initial charge up, a reg with dry (lacking lubrication)plunger o-ring will commonly spike somewhat because the o-rings tend to stick to the sidewall of the tube a bit and requires a little extra pressure to get it going initially. Especially if it has been setting unused for awhile. If during use, spikes can be caused by even a minute dust partical caught in the valve and seal when it cycles. The trick is to use a valve design and seal material that will shed the garbage regularly gets through the air supply lines. Teflon tape and/or debri from fitting sealants causes many such problems. We see that sort of thing a great deal in the front regs on cockers. People unscrew the old reg from the front block and install the new one without cleaning the port. The new installation pushes the garbage back into the port and as soon as you cycle the gun, the debris is promptly pushed right into the regulator valve and then out to the 4-way. You might be surprised at the trouble that a very small shred of teflon tape can cause.
    Well here's the funny thing. The reg is well oiled, and well broken in. I get no first shot hot, I get no hot shots at all actually ;-) Here's what we were seeing. On the guage placed inline with the reg going to the gun the guage jumped up and then landed back at 450psi. This was the mechanical guage...... With the other regs you saw the guage drop and come up to pressure, with the stab it jumped and shook and landed right back at 450psi. So we took it to the dyno to see the real results. The recharge looked like it had an air heating spike like the RT does... just it didn't surpass the set pressure. It was really quite impressive.

    As far as I can tell the reg is in perfect shape, no dirt or trash in it at all. And the dyno run just confirmed that. (that can be said even for my brass rock *grins some more*)

  29. #149
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    Originally posted by Paladin
    That is because the supply input on "In-line" reg is trying to hold the valve open while the input on a reg like the Stabilizer is holding the valve closed.
    So which regs on the market hold the valve open, and which ones hold it closed?

  30. #150
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    Originally posted by ES13Raven
    So which regs on the market hold the valve open, and which ones hold it closed?
    As far as I know, all the regs with the input on the end of the reg ("In-line") are such that the input supply is trying to hold the valve open. If the input to the reg is up near the output, it is pretty safe to assume it is such that the input supply is holding the valve closed until acted against by the spring and plunger.

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