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Thread: How many times can an autococker cycle per second?

  1. #181
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    interesting...

    now I can understand why you would want two clocks for that function. it let's you see the effects of making ram mods and the biggie, changing your cocking psi. cocking psi is the main thing that effects open time, and of course, close time.
    my cocking psi is about 50, using a STO ram that is modified to 1 1/4" stroke and an exhaust valve added to decrease opposition to the back stroke of the ram.the gun will work well at 35 psi, but I like the faster open and close times I get at 50 psi.

    as far as times go, my times probly are different due to programming. what is your close time on the race? and what is it measured from?

    I plan on trying a new bolt design that "should" increase fps and effeciency. but I'm sure some time adjustments will have to be made.
    ~E~

  2. #182

    eliminating the lag in a cocker!

    i was pondering upon copying the electricians idea for an electric cocker... then it hit me! the only reason a cocker is so slow is cause the ram is moving a back block, bolt, stainless pin, cocking rod, hammer, it is also working by compressing that darn spring. well just tonight i finished my e-cocker. it has a single acting ram in the bottom tube it is controlled by a mac, fed from a second lpr. the hammer is threaded to the ram. i am using a morlock board to control it. well my gun shoots and then the ram pulls the hammer back before the bolt is even moving to load a ball. the best part about this is that the pressure on the back block is minimal cause it doesnt need a whole lot of air just to move the bolt back and forth. sorry for my poor explanation. --travis--
    p.s. it is almost impossible to chop a ball with this setup

  3. #183
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    almost sounds like an excalibur...
    As society and the problems that face it become more and more complex and machines become more and more intelligent, people will let machines make more of their decisions for them, simply because machine-made decisions will bring better results than man-made ones. Eventually a stage may be reached at which the decisions necessary to keep the system running will be so complex that human beings will be incapable of making them intelligently. At that stage the machines will be in effective control. People won't be able to just turn the machines off, because they will be so dependent on them that turning them off would amount to suicide

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  4. #184

    kinda

    kinda but on this the hammer ram is single acting so it actually starts to return during the valve dwell time. in a hurry will post more later --travis--

  5. #185
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    hmmm

    very nice kc , have you thought about a bolt to hammer linkage similar to a micrococker? I'm currently trying to work on a electro cocker drop in conversion without the aid of a controlling board...quite the pain finding an alternate way to delay the ram movement without the aid of a second switch That deadly wind project is one way to go with dual solonoids and a ram tripping the sear, he claims a 15bps or so, but there are other homemade projects on autococker.net using a morlock board....er...you wouldnt happen to be one of em?

  6. #186

    not really

    i wasnt trying to get the effect of a micrococker cause i want the ram that drives the bolt to have as little pressure as possible. if i were to use a linkage similar to that the ram would have to compress a spring and pullthe hammer assembly back all at once. this is what i believe slows down the cocker. my design does not depend upon the backblock moving anything but the bolt. the hammer assembly is all internal and has its own ram that controls it. --travis--
    p.s. try a capacitor inline for the delay...

  7. #187
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    booya

    cool design you ended up with, post a pic!
    A capacitor was suggested to my by my sysadmin actually, but I've yet to find one of suitable size and delay for the frame, but thats my main option at this point.

  8. #188
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    I have an idea

    Two X-ways: One at a low enough pressure to move the ball with out breaking it, or low enough to pinch, that would be the X-way used for closing the block. A separate one would be used for opening, at a higher pressure, to keep the opening cycle up to speed.

    Ive got a couple ideas im going to test.
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  9. #189
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    A properly designed air cylinder (ram) can provide a substantial decrease in the force applied on the retraction side of the cylinder when compared to the force that is achieved on the extension stroke of the cylinder.
    The reduction of force is equal to the amount of surface area of the face of the piston that is taken up by the shaft. The larger the shaft in relation to the piston size the greater the diferential in the force between extension and retraction of the cylinder.
    Thus you can soften the return stroke inside the ram without using seperate controls and regulators for the automation.




    Originally posted by Dubstar112
    I have an idea

    Two X-ways: One at a low enough pressure to move the ball with out breaking it, or low enough to pinch, that would be the X-way used for closing the block. A separate one would be used for opening, at a higher pressure, to keep the opening cycle up to speed.

    Ive got a couple ideas im going to test.
    Glenn Palmer aka Paladin
    Do it right or don't bother.

  10. #190
    listen to Paladin.. hes all about that! :-D

    thats how i made my ram/bolt in this project.. it has about 3x the surface area pushing back as it does forward.

    http://www.racegun.dk/forum/topic.as...Title=Pictures

    out!
    ColinMoritz

    Chord, Chord V2, Dallara, Karta, current project: (coming soon)

  11. #191
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    ...from finding out max rof to guessing the specs of the cocker with the highest rof, i thought this was 'deep blue', not 'stabbin' in the dark'...

  12. #192
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    found this laying around, not shure if it has been posted before

    http://www.planeteclipse.com/www2001...rame_lores.wmv

  13. #193
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    air cylinders

    for example....

    The Bimba ram on my desk has a 5/16 diameter body... I would guess a 0.25 diameter piston and a 1/8 (0.125) diameter shaft.

    At 100 psi this ram could push (extend) with a force of 4.9 lbs and pull (retract) with a force of 3.6 lbs... a difference of about 25%.

  14. #194
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    I don't believe Bimba makes a 1/4" bore cylinder, but they do make a 5/16" bore cylinder.on this cylinder the retraction power factor is about 84 percent of the extension force. so the difference isn't that much, but of course if the bore size decreases and the rod size stays the same, the difference in force will increase.

    KCpaintballer,AKA Travis, hows your project going? there was another guy who had the same design as you that I was trading info with about a year ago, I wish I could remeber his name. He used to visit the Tinker's Guild regularly. he designed his own inegrated ram/hammer.

    So you ended up going with a spring return, single acting cylinder? I have been working on a way to use one lpr to conrol both cylinders, the recock and hammer actuation. let me know how much psi your running into the hammer cylinder.

    ~E~

  15. #195

    good!!

    don, all help or references are appreciated... (you know that). i got her all together... now, all i have to perfect is those finishing touches i.e. brackets, hard lines, etc. about my hammer pressure... well its fairly low, but it could be lower, all i have to do is raise my input pressure and increase dwell. what i am so proud of is the bolt pressure, lets just say its about my age maybe less. shot a case of gap and not 1 break none in barrell or breach. also ran through some old midnite that had been sitting out for a long time. i had only 2 or 3 breaks but they were in barrell (swollen paint). the paint had been sitting out in the armory since the last hodge park tourney. later --travis--
    p.s. i also got a new hopper... somethin you should check out

  16. Ive only read the first few post on this and it was about how fast a cocker could shoot. My cocker blazes. This attatched video shows a cocker at best, its not mine, take a look! Blazin Fast Autococker in action!
    Im Looking for HPA!!!!

  17. #197
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    how fast is that shooting and how much $ is put into that thing .

  18. That is a stock Eclipse Eblade autococker. The frame itself can be had for about 400. Its an easy install on any autococker.

  19. #199
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    Originally posted by Paladin
    (GP)On most of the electro setups I've seen on cockers, one of the biggest limitations to cycling speed is the air flow through the 4-way/5-way valve or the barb fittings for the tubing. Same often holds true with mechanical setups as well.

    I'm wondering waht fatter hoses will do for how fast the gun can be made to cycle.

    (GP) Fatter hoses may help a tad bit but the flow restriction for the automation is in the fittings/hose barbs and the size of the air passages in and out of the 4-way. Many of the 4-way valves currently on the market have very small holes (.050" or less)for the o-rings on the spool to pass over in the body of the valve and only .040" to .050" air passage thru the barb fitting. Common tubing used on 'cockers is .062" ID.
    On that note......

    What will get better performance.....

    A hose from the LPR to the 5-way that is as short as possible, or one with some slack in it so the 5-way has a little more regulated air to draw from?
    Dark FreeFlow Racegun

  20. #200
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    Originally posted by ES13Raven
    On that note......

    What will get better performance.....

    A hose from the LPR to the 5-way that is as short as possible, or one with some slack in it so the 5-way has a little more regulated air to draw from?
    Not enough gain in volume to make any difference.
    Typically, shorter air passages relate to faster transfer speeds.

  21. #201
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    I didn't feel like reading through the entire four pages of talk so if someone has already posted autocockers can cycle faster than 10 oh well. They have shot raceguns at 20+bps. This was a very inefficient setup and required completely new internals but it worked. I will try to find the video of it and post a link.
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  22. #202
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    Originally posted by Duganator
    This was a very inefficient setup and required completely new internals but it worked.
    It was done on a FreeFlow cocker, and the only things changed were the bolt and hammer. The bolt is a RaceGun Delrin, and the hammer a RaceGun bronze :M: hammer.

    Also, it was not the new FreeFlow SMC Ram, but an STO Ram. 20 BPS without an ACE as well.

    Here is the link to the video:
    http://www.raceguns.dk/data/RGP_512x409.avi
    Last edited by ES13Raven; 02-04-2003 at 06:49 PM.

  23. #203
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    Just to bring back an old thread, and share some new data.....

    With my Dark FreeFlow set to 300fps, I was able to get my Open time down to 7ms

    I used a Pneumadyne Quick Exhaust Valve on the rear port of my SMC FF Ram:


    Glenn,

    Have you ever tried using these on your Rams?

  24. #204
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    Originally posted by ES13Raven
    Just to bring back an old thread, and share some new data.....

    With my Dark FreeFlow set to 300fps, I was able to get my Open time down to 7ms

    I used a Pneumadyne Quick Exhaust Valve on the rear port of my SMC FF Ram:

    Glenn,

    Have you ever tried using these on your Rams?
    No, we haven't yet tried that particular model. The important thing to note here is that such release valves don't really help the ram as much as compensating for limited flow through the vent in the control valve.
    Did you try one of those valves on the front of the ram too ? If so, did it make any difference ?

  25. #205
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    paladin: You mention that the hose length isn't really a serious determining factor. What about larger ID hose? I'm not sure anythign is available comercially that would suit the situation though.

    MOdern cockers don't need LP chambers on the front of thegun. that leaves space to install a small tank of reserve air for the ram...I wonder if it would make a difference in cycle time.
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  26. #206
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    Originally posted by nerobro
    paladin: You mention that the hose length isn't really a serious determining factor. What about larger ID hose? I'm not sure anythign is available comercially that would suit the situation though.

    MOdern cockers don't need LP chambers on the front of thegun. that leaves space to install a small tank of reserve air for the ram...I wonder if it would make a difference in cycle time.
    A larger ID hose isn't going to do you much good without larger ID ports for it to connect to. The hoses used on most 'cocker front ends are pretty short and not likely to be a problem. However, if you have a piece of tubing with .065" ID that is connected to a hose barb with .050", it cannot move any more air than the smallest orofice in the system. On most pneumatics setups, it is the size of the ports in the hose barbs and the air movement through the pneumatics components that dictate speed of actuation.
    The regulator should provide more than enough accumulator chamber to cycle the ram as quickly as possible but it still has to move the air flow through the control valve thus making the control valve and hose barbs most likely to be the culprits in slow cycling speeds.

  27. #207
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    Originally posted by Paladin
    The important thing to note here is that such release valves don't really help the ram as much as compensating for limited flow through the vent in the control valve.
    Did you try one of those valves on the front of the ram too ? If so, did it make any difference ?
    Well.... I tested my best Open time right before I installed it, and it was 14ms. That is pretty damn low to start, but just by putting on the QEV I was able to lower it to 7ms. Micro Rock was at 85psi.

    I'm sure that adding another QEV to the front port will increase speed as well, but I didn't install one on purpose. I wanted to keep the force of the bolt softer.

    It should be just as fast as the Open without a QEV, as there is no mainspring force the ram has to work against right?

  28. #208
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    paladin: Maybe I should have mentioned larger nipples. I was assuming that was clear. Larger ID hose wouldn't work without larger fittings to go with it. So we can rest assured that the rocks have sufficant reserve volume built in ;-) Speaking of which... there's a broken brass rock coming your way...*sniffles*

  29. #209
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    Originally posted by ES13Raven
    Well.... I tested my best Open time right before I installed it, and it was 14ms. That is pretty damn low to start, but just by putting on the QEV I was able to lower it to 7ms. Micro Rock was at 85psi.

    I'm sure that adding another QEV to the front port will increase speed as well, but I didn't install one on purpose. I wanted to keep the force of the bolt softer.

    It should be just as fast as the Open without a QEV, as there is no mainspring force the ram has to work against right?
    Well, your quick exhaust valve is on the lower volume side of the ram and the back flow through the 4-way vent is what the release valve speeds up.
    A quick release on the front of the ram allows for faster venting of the opening pressure and probably would not effect the pressure or "force" on the bolt.
    Maybe better to look at it a faster direction change than faster lineal movement. It isn't so much that the ram will move faster but change directions of force faster.

  30. #210
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    Originally posted by nerobro
    paladin: Maybe I should have mentioned larger nipples. I was assuming that was clear. Larger ID hose wouldn't work without larger fittings to go with it. So we can rest assured that the rocks have sufficant reserve volume built in ;-) Speaking of which... there's a broken brass rock coming your way...*sniffles*
    What I was getting at is that larger hoses and barbs won't do any good if the ports for flow or venting through the control valve are not equally as large.

    How is your Rock "broken" ?

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