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Thread: Scuba and Shoebox?

  1. #1
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    Scuba and Shoebox?

    Edit: I honestly never thought I'd have reason to post on these forums again.


    Can the shoebox be converted for breathable air applications? Also, what would the chances of making this thing o2 clean be? How many hours between services would this need? I can see a huge application in the scuba diving community.
    Last edited by lord1234; 06-14-2010 at 09:19 AM.
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord1234
    Edit: I honestly never thought I'd have reason to post on these forums again.


    Can the shoebox be converted for breathable air applications? Also, what would the chances of making this thing o2 clean be? How many hours between services would this need? I can see a huge application in the scuba diving community.
    there isn't anything in the shoebox that would cause any dirtyness. The trick is going to be feeding the shoebox clean air.

    I talked to Tom for a bit about this - we agreed that an in-line filter post shop compressor should result in very clean output from the shoebox.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brycelarson
    there isn't anything in the shoebox that would cause any dirtyness. The trick is going to be feeding the shoebox clean air.

    I talked to Tom for a bit about this - we agreed that an in-line filter post shop compressor should result in very clean output from the shoebox.
    What about o2 cleaning the output? Would the orings be replaceable with Viton? What kind of grease is used in the compressor currently(if any?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by lord1234
    What about o2 cleaning the output? Would the orings be replaceable with Viton? What kind of grease is used in the compressor currently(if any?)
    well, the reason I think that cleaning the input would be preferable - is that then you're cleaning a relativly easly place in the chain. 85psi and moderate volume instead of the 3k+ output at the other end.

    currently there is no grease in any part of the compressor that comes in contact with the air. You use a bit of lithium grease on the piston rods where they run through the guide.

    The o-rings in the pistons.... well, that's one of the things that Tom worked hard on - selection of those parts was a big deal. I'm not sure what the final o-ring material choice was - but it was made for a reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brycelarson
    well, the reason I think that cleaning the input would be preferable - is that then you're cleaning a relativly easly place in the chain. 85psi and moderate volume instead of the 3k+ output at the other end.

    currently there is no grease in any part of the compressor that comes in contact with the air. You use a bit of lithium grease on the piston rods where they run through the guide.

    The o-rings in the pistons.... well, that's one of the things that Tom worked hard on - selection of those parts was a big deal. I'm not sure what the final o-ring material choice was - but it was made for a reason.
    Yes but only certain materials can be o2 cleaned. Viton is the scuba standard. I'd definitely put a filter inline between the input compressor and the shoebox, (as well as between the shoebox and the tank).

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    do you have any filters in mind? I've got a scuba tank and compressor at home.

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    before anything like this gets done, lots of logistics have to be solved. Filters are key. Also, I wouldn't breathe ANY air until I had it tested by a lab.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lord1234
    before anything like this gets done, lots of logistics have to be solved. Filters are key. Also, I wouldn't breathe ANY air until I had it tested by a lab.
    how 'bout a scuba shop? They have those portable analyzers

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    Quote Originally Posted by brycelarson
    how 'bout a scuba shop? They have those portable analyzers
    Those analyzers are for analyzing oxygen and/or helium content of air. Not the nasty pollutants such as oil that can get in to the air. Trust me breathing bad air is bad. I'll probably pick these up once available to the public(I haven't been active here in a while, so I doubt Tom will let me get in the first group), and then we can have some fun.

    This air would need to be chemically analyzed by a well qualified dive shop that specializes in this kind of stuff. www.uniteddivers.com does air quality analysis i think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lord1234
    Those analyzers are for analyzing oxygen and/or helium content of air. Not the nasty pollutants such as oil that can get in to the air. Trust me breathing bad air is bad. I'll probably pick these up once available to the public(I haven't been active here in a while, so I doubt Tom will let me get in the first group), and then we can have some fun.

    This air would need to be chemically analyzed by a well qualified dive shop that specializes in this kind of stuff. www.uniteddivers.com does air quality analysis i think.
    '
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frizzle Fry
    '
    FireProTech in Garner MA has a service they use... It's local to you (relatively) and is a great business.
    Thanks frizzle. Good to know for when the time comes. First I gotta get my hands on one of these.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lord1234
    Thanks frizzle. Good to know for when the time comes. First I gotta get my hands on one of these.
    You oughta come out to BPS Outdoor some time. Me and a few other AO'ers are there, and we're all looking to get 2nd Gen Shoeboxes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frizzle Fry
    You oughta come out to BPS Outdoor some time. Me and a few other AO'ers are there, and we're all looking to get 2nd Gen Shoeboxes.
    I'll admit that I no longer play paintball. Note that prior to this thread, my last post on AO was in '07.

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    Another more interesting option would be to use this compressor to boost helium or argon. (argon obviously much easier and less dangerous, since its not flammable, and not a breathing gas). Drive the compressor with a 80cf bottle of Argon. use it to refill more and more 80cf bottles. Would that work?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lord1234
    I'll admit that I no longer play paintball. Note that prior to this thread, my last post on AO was in '07.
    Lord , a lot of the old school guys are coming back around , never to late to pick up that Classic

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    as stated above, breathing air must be filtered and tested. I wouldnt use one of these for breathing air with out the proper filtration required.
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    Breathing bad air is deadly. When I was stationed in Panama, There were 2 guys that die from bad air and like 4-6 others got extremely ill. The place they got their air from had a crack in the muffler of the eng that was running the compressor. The muffler was right by the fresh air intake and the Carbon Monoxide got into the air system.

    That's one of the biggest fears when it comes to filling tanks (next to them blowing up). That being said, since this is a new system. No one knows what the quality of the air is going to be or if the internals are going to cause air quality problems. It would be good to test it unfiltered and see what the outcome is.

    I wouldn't worry too much about the shoebox itself. I would worry more about the other compressor that's supplying the 85 psi to the Shoebox. If that compressor is ran by a gas motor, the exhaust needs to be plumbed far away from the fresh air inlet.

    Truthfully I don't see it as being a problem but you never know till you test it. If I remember correctly, any kind of compressor that's being used to fill tanks for breathing purposes must be tested quarterly. That test isn't cheap.
    Last edited by Ando; 06-14-2010 at 09:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ando
    I wouldn't worry too much about the shoebox itself. I would worry more about the other compressor that's supplying the 85 psi to the Shoebox. If that compressor is ran by a gas motor, the exhaust needs to be plumbed far away from the fresh air inlet.
    yeah, that's my thought as well. an electric shop compressor running through a filter to the electric shoebox doesn't really offer much opportunity for contamination - but I would love to see a test of the results.

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    Guys,

    So people do not sue me, let me make it perfectly clear that we specifically warn against using the ShoeBox for breathing air. Its dangerous as you have already pointed out.

    Speaking purely theoretically, IF we were going to build a ShoeBox for breathing air we would assemble it completely dry, no lubricant. That means the only things the air comes in contact with is aluminum, steel, delrin, urethane orings and Viton orings (Viton is used in the back checks).

    We do assemble the parts now with a coating of white lithium grease so the interior is not clean. The feed compressor is also a big concern.

    Again, NOT RECOMMENDED FOR BREATHING AIR.

    AGD

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    Quote Originally Posted by AGD
    Guys,

    So people do not sue me, let me make it perfectly clear that we specifically warn against using the ShoeBox for breathing air. Its dangerous as you have already pointed out.

    Speaking purely theoretically, IF we were going to build a ShoeBox for breathing air we would assemble it completely dry, no lubricant. That means the only things the air comes in contact with is aluminum, steel, delrin, urethane orings and Viton orings (Viton is used in the back checks).

    We do assemble the parts now with a coating of white lithium grease so the interior is not clean. The feed compressor is also a big concern.

    Again, NOT RECOMMENDED FOR BREATHING AIR.

    AGD
    scuba guys aren't probably arn't as concerned with prices (more realistically, they spend way more then us), so adding some features in the future to "clean up" the compressor might be easy to do while keeping the price point "low" by scuba standards.

    nerd question - viton is this a polymer like delrin or something else? when looking at the backchecks i just assumed delrin, but i am unfamilar with viton.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk
    scuba guys aren't probably arn't as concerned with prices (more realistically, they spend way more then us), so adding some features in the future to "clean up" the compressor might be easy to do while keeping the price point "low" by scuba standards.

    nerd question - viton is this a polymer like delrin or something else? when looking at the backchecks i just assumed delrin, but i am unfamilar with viton.
    Polymer is such a wide ranging word. Polymer is anything with long chains of molecules.

    viton is another material to make o-rings from. Same as silicone, teflon, buna-n, etc. http://www.dupontelastomers.com/prod...ct=vitondotcom
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viton

    It tolerates high(er) temperatures, and is one of the reasons it was chosen for the hot end of the shoebox.

    What also may be confusing, is that the viton o-rings are the same color as the check valve itself. I assure you, there is an o-ring on your check valve.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk
    but i am unfamilar with viton.
    It is a nice compound. I use to use viton in many environmental engineering test. It does not react with as many chemicals as std orings.

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    Google foo

    Came across this searching for something.

    Our fill rate is 300psi (or less) per minute. We do not use a water bath to "cool" tanks as they are being filled. If filled at a rate of 300psi (or less) there is not a sufficient amount of friction created (heat) that would require cooling of a cylinder.

    Interesting........

    http://www.floridafrogman.com/airfills.htm


    So when you go to a field and get a fill to 4500psi in 10 seconds or LESS its ok?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beemer
    Came across this searching for something.

    Our fill rate is 300psi (or less) per minute. We do not use a water bath to "cool" tanks as they are being filled. If filled at a rate of 300psi (or less) there is not a sufficient amount of friction created (heat) that would require cooling of a cylinder.

    Interesting........

    http://www.floridafrogman.com/airfills.htm


    So when you go to a field and get a fill to 4500psi in 10 seconds or LESS its ok?
    Your tanks are made of a different alloy then the average scuba tank. I don't know many people who use aluminum tanks for compressed air for Paintball. OTOH we use aluminum tanks or steel tanks for compressed air. Co2 tanks don't have this problem since they nearly freeze when you flash fill them (as is typical at most fields). And I won't even explain why we don't fill our scuba tanks with co2.

    Edit and yes, tanks can get extremely hot when being filled for scuba.

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    Quote Originally Posted by maniacmechanic
    Lord , a lot of the old school guys are coming back around , never to late to pick up that Classic

    Heh, check out my last post date.

    I actually found out about this compressor in a roundabout way.


    I was interested in filling my 68/45 at home because even though I don't play paintball anymore (I moved away from all my friends who were into it) I still wanted to just shoot paintballs in my yard.

    I discovered that Benjamin (Crosman) sells a 3800psi hand pump for filling PCP air rifles so I bought one thinking I'd use it to fill my 68/45.

    Well, suffice it to say, that didn't work out how I'd hoped. WAY too much effort for almost no reward.

    Since I now had a perfectly good pump lying around that wasn't suited to filling paintball tanks, I ordered a PCP air rifle to go with it. After shooting the air rifle a Bit, I ordered another one and am really having a blast with them, but I still haven't gotten a good solution to filling the paintball tank.

    Then I saw the facebook page for the shoebox compressor. At under $500 it's going to be 1/6th the price of a Bauer compressor.

    I'm going to be keeping my eye out for a production model at a retail store when they become widely available.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloencustoms
    I'm going to be keeping my eye out for a production model at a retail store when they become widely available.
    Production units will be sold HERE.........http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=251401

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