Wow, great idea hill!!! I wanna see that setup when you're done, does it use the same connections as the map sensor or did you have to rig something?
Wow, great idea hill!!! I wanna see that setup when you're done, does it use the same connections as the map sensor or did you have to rig something?
I will simply splice into the MAP line at the ECU under the dash. Less wiring to deal with.
Here is how it works for those who have no idea.
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Last edited by hill160881; 08-08-2012 at 06:56 PM.
A quick question. If your engine is designed to handle almost anything thrown at it, then why not throw a 30 shot at it? So the stock engine can handle 20+ psi and I am keeping it around 14 psi max. Why not turn up the boost with some NOS?
Even if i never use it I ordered a NOS sniper single point wet system. If i am only shooting a 30 shot no need for direct port,,,,,,yet. The single point fogger system will be fine,,,,,, for now.
I am stupidstuff on other forums as most of what i do is stupid. lol,,,,, you guys know what I mean. I have my build there as well and that is where I got most of my education on these cars. That place moves really slowly as this car is kinda rare. Great source of info though.
I hope to have all the goodies by middle of next week.
While we wait here is a little info I found to read up on explaining why I am opting for both water/meth injection and Nitrous.
Optimize Your Nitrous System With A Water Methanol Injection System
Recently here at AIS, two of the most asked questions by inquiring customers has been "Can I use water methanol injection with my nitrous oxide? And if so, what sort of benefits will it offer me?" Because of these inquiries, we decided to dedicate an article specifically for it to help answer and explain some of these common questions we receive concerning the use of water methanol injection with nitrous.
Can I Use Water Methanol Injection With My Nitrous Oxide?
Absolutely. Nitrous oxide injection and water methanol injection are very compatible and safe to use together. In fact, water injection is quickly becoming the most effective, economical and efficient method of optimizing the performance of both wet and dry nitrous oxide systems. Furthermore, not only can water methanol injection enhance the power producing effects of your nitrous system, it can also significantly increase engine safety and reliability at the same.
...A well needed benefit for nitrous users as we all know all to well of the harsh conditions nitrous can put engines through.
So, what sort of benefits can a water methanol injection system offer? Before we getting in to this. To better help everyone understand, let's quickly go over the basic principles and explain how nitrous oxide injection works.
How Nitrous Oxide Injection Works
Nitrous oxide is made up of 2 parts nitrogen and one part oxygen (36% oxygen by weight). During the combustion process in an engine, at about 572 degrees F, nitrous oxide splits releasing the oxygen and nitrogen. The released oxygen helps create additional power by allowing more fuel to be burned. While the released nitrogen acts to buffer and dampen the rapidly increasing cylinder pressure. Yet still, the use of nitrous oxide results in an accelerated combustion rate therefore requiring the need for reduced ignition timing. General rule of thumb is to reduce ignition timing 1 to 1-1/2 degrees per every 50 horsepower gain.
Nitrous also has a tremendous "inter cooling" effect, reducing intake charge temperatures by 60 to 75 degrees F on naturally aspirated applications. Lowering the air charge temperature coming into the intake allows for a denser air charge, therefore creating more horsepower. A general rule of thumb is for every 10 Degrees F. reduction in intake charge temperature, a 1% increase in power will be realized. For example: A 450 HP engine with an intake temperature drop of 70 Degrees F, would gain approximately 31.5 horsepower from the cooling affect alone.
Now that we have an accurate and basic understanding on how nitrous oxide works. Let begin talking about how water methanol injection can benefit a nitrous oxide system and the engine.
How Will Adding A Water Methanol Injection System To My Nitrous Oxide Injection Benefit Me?
It's no secret nitrous oxide offers big seat of the pants power with it's massive low rpm torque increases. However, do to it's instant "explosive" type power gains, one of the biggest problems associated with nitrous oxide is it's accelerated combustion rates. This leads to rapid cylinder pressure rise, resulting in substantial increased risk and occurrence of detonation. Additionally, rapid rises in cylinder pressure dramatically increase loads placed upon the internal engine components limiting their ability to make more horsepower reliably.
Follow along as we go over various benefits offered by combining a water methanol injection system with nitrous oxide injection.
Acts As An Effective Octane Enhancer - Octane is a very big and obvious factor in controlling and allowing how much nitrous, compression and timing can be safely mixed together at one time with out detonation occurring. This is particularly important when the use of higher octane fuels are not available or practical and regular premium pump gas must be used.
Together, water methanol injection serves to act as a substantial octane enhancer allowing 91-93 octane to perform like 110+ octane fuel. Methanol being a high octane fuel and burning as part of the combustion process. While water is not a burnable fuel, it is an extremely effective anti-detonant, effectively slowing down the burn rate of the fuel. Spray to much water and it will simply quench spark all together.
Slows Down & Stabilizes The Combustion Process - It's a known fact nitrous accelerates the combustion process as evident through the ignition timing retard required when using nitrous oxide. Performing much like a high octane fuel, water injection is an extremely effective octane enhancer. Thereby, slowing down the burn rate of the fuel and stabilizing the combustion process. Additionally, water also reduces combustion chamber temperatures. Thereby further stabilizing the combustion process by minimizing "hot spots" which can lead to detonation.
Slower Rise In Cylinder Pressure - By slowing down and stabilizing the combustion process. Water methanol injection is also able to help slow the rapidly rising cylinder pressure normally associated with nitrous oxide. This significantly helps reduce the risk and occurrence of detonation. Furthermore, slower rise in cylinder pressure reduces violent engine loads and improves the engines ability to make more horsepower reliably.
Reduces Combustion Chamber Temperatures - Knowing what we know about nitrous oxide, with the rapid release of oxygen and ability to burn more fuel, cylinder pressure increases dramatically, while also creating much more heat within the combustion chamber. With more heat in the cylinder and combustion chamber, the need arises to get rid of it before it starts to cause detonation of the fuel and/or before it heat soaks into all of the major components, like the heads, the block and the pistons.
An engine gets rid of its heat by transferring heat through the heads, block and pistons into the water jackets and, ultimately, into the radiator. Additionally, much of the heat is dispersed through the exhaust. Consequently, it makes logical sense by introducing something into the engine that will become part of the combustion process and can reduce heat. That "something" is water injected into an engine by an efficient water-injection unit.
Helps Cool & Protect The Tops Of The Pistons And Upper Ring - When it comes to pistons, heat is one the biggest threats. Piston manufactures are constantly working on improving piston coatings to prevent and help minimize the amount of heat transferred from the combustion chamber to the piston. Additionally, OEM manufactures of turbocharged engines are using oil squirters under the pistons of engines as another method to also reduce piston temperatures.
The use of a water methanol injection can also dramatically reduce combustion chamber temperatures as both water and methanol have a high latent heat of vaporization.
Definition of latent heat of vaporization: "latent heat" is the amount of energy in the form of heat released or absorbed by a substance during a phase.
A phase change in our case would be when water methanol changes from a liquid to a gas (steam) when it meets the heat with in the cylinder. As a result, were able to further reduce heat within the combustion chamber, in turn reduce the amount of heat transfer to the tops of the piston. Thereby cooling and protecting the top of the piston and upper ring.
Helps Eliminate And Minimize Detonation - While the released nitrogen acts to buffer and dampen the rapidly increasing cylinder pressure. Unfortunately, nitrous oxide users are still plagued with the constant threat of detonation. As a result of increased added octane, ability to slow down and stabilize the combustion process, slower rise in cylinder pressure and reduced combustion chamber temperatures, water methanol injection helps eliminate and minimize the occurrence of detonation.
Allows Users To Safely Run More Nitrous - As a result of increased added octane, slower rise in cylinder pressure, reduced combustion chamber temperatures. When water methanol injection is combined with nitrous oxide, more nitrous can safely be used, in turn more fuel can be burned, and more power is created more safely and reliably.
Allows The Use Of Little Or No Timing Retard - As a result of water injection effectiveness as an octane enhancer and it's ability to slow down and stabilize the combustion process. By adding a water methanol injection system, nitrous users are able to run little or no ignition timing retard even with large 250 shots.
Improves Engine Safety And Reliability - There is NO better product which can more effectively and economically increase octane, slow down and stabilize the combustion process, reduce cylinder pressure, reduce combustion chamber temperature and minimize and help eliminate detonation of your nitrous engine as a water methanol injection system.
Protect your motor and the investment you have in your motor while increasing horsepower all at the same time with a water methanol injection system.
Last edited by hill160881; 08-10-2012 at 09:57 PM.
So on the new ordered list i have, the nitrous system with purge kit, progressive water methane injection, And just ordered a set of 225/50 r13's for the rear with diamond racing 13x8 wheels. Also a set of flares.
I will use snaps for the flares so they can be removed for the normal daily driving tires. Also I aim to address the heavy front end by lowering the rear with the smaller diameter tires. This will also change the ratio on the ground as the tire size difference will be close to 33mm smaller.
The wheel and tires wont be here and installable until about the first of setp as the wheels wont arrive until then.
Then I plan to learn to drive. In a 1800 lb car that can now run 11s.
water/methane injection system with trunk mount tank and a small tank incase the larger one wont mount and hide. The pump is huge, haha
Only waiting on the tires, wheels and flares
Last edited by hill160881; 08-15-2012 at 04:23 PM.
Looking good. Again sorry to hear about the bad but keep up with the good. I really hate NOS but at least you have the water meth injection to keep from melting the pistons.
Nitrous is only bad if the pistons are not made for it, and you get detonations or run lean. These pistons are made same as the new ones for nitrous application. Also the power maximum for the block is somewhere around 400 hp. I wont go over 320. Also i have a gauge that tells me the fuel air mixture so I will know it if is running lean or rich, and I can adjust the fuel jet accordingly. As for detonations, well it is a knock sensor engine and will adjust the timing if it detects knock. However that is what the water meth is for, to prevent knock and allow the computer to take advantage of its 100 octane programming.
So with it being a sleeper,,,,,,,,why not nitrous? Since there was not a answer having to do with engine reliability I went and did it. Now my concern is the transmission and rear end. I am on there absolute limit with these upgrades.
if you end up on the track, please post a video,
this looks like this project ended up working out ok, even with the bad, auto shop problems,
hope things work out awsome,
waiting for finish, yippy awsome.
O ****! Together they will combine for around 20 inches of rubber on the ground in the rear.
Don't forget the parachuteOriginally Posted by hill160881
So a small update. Still waiting on the diamond wheels! They had some stocking issues and I hope they get it handled soon.
I ordered a MegaSquirt DIYPNP ECU with blue tooth connection and ignition components to replace the old ones. Soooo......
I plan to install this new list all at once. I have ordered it all and paid for it and am just waiting on the ECU to arrive.
-Megasquirt standalone ECU
-Sniper wet 50 shot nitrous with the second stage of water/meth.
-Acer Iconia windows tablet. To run the tuning software.
-Two stage, three port water/methane injection. One 50 ccm injector prior to the charger and two 90 ccm injectors after the inter cooler. The 50 ccm injector and one 90 ccm injector will run based on boost levels and the other 90 ccm injector, the second stage, will activate only with the nitrous. All 3 injectors have a 230 ccm flow at 150 psi and 320 ccm at 200 psi and full boost with nitrous.
It arrived! I wish I had the cash for a Haltech or a FAST system!!!!
I got the main board of the ECU done but have to wait to get some info from DIY to do the jumpers to match the pin out. I must say the DIYPNP so far is not hard to assemble given the instructions are not so good beyond the basic assembly. None of the abbreviated acronyms for the board functions match the ones toyota used so this is an issue. Also I dont have a clue how to get the SC to fire or how to set the solenoid configured on the board, so.....
How it looks after just the resistors are installed. They come completely bare.
Here is the assembled unit waiting for jumpers and the case. These units come COMPLETELY unassembled. Meaning I had to solder everything. Hope I got good connections.
So very soon it will be a 14psi boosted, nitrous/water/methane breathing monster. MUAHAHAHA
Last edited by hill160881; 09-29-2012 at 10:01 AM.
Standalone computer system all done. About 4 hours of soldering and nail biting. It took its firmware upload and all went well.
Still need to decide which output i want to run the super charger relay and I still need to attach the ignition coils to there respective points on the board.
Woah , the Nitrous System is nice and all but in time that motor will blow. I have seen way to many of my friends imports integra's, honda's, etc,.. whom have had nitrous and all of them have done engine rebuilds numerous times. Trust me you will be popping that thing at every red light when someone challenges you.
Ride it like you stole it but that nitrous is serious, and on such a light car can be dangerous.
This is a myth about nitrous and all blown engine rebuilds as a result are caused by improper tuning or to much nitrous. If they are rebuilding there engine they have there timing advance set to aggressive for the shot they are using, or they are spraying to much.Originally Posted by Tropical Life
This engine is NOTHING like a honda engine. This engine has WAY stronger internals than any honda. If you were to build a engine specifically for nitrous you would use the same ceramic coated forged pistons and forged light weight rods currently in it. It cost $1000 for this engine used and $8000 to build a new one this strong from after-market parts. Also this block is reinforced compared to the N/A version.
Nirous is no different than forced induction. You just spray the oxygen instead of pumping it in. Also the water/meth injection will prevent any damage your honda friends sustain. The second stage of water methane is set to engage with the nitrous. So I have an extra measure of protection most dont have when running nitrous. This engine will see many seasons at the track and many miles as a daily driver.
I have conversed with several and you can run this engine on a 50 shot for three years and over a dozen bottles and it will be fine. This is the strongest engine of its size ever produced. Compleetly stock the internals can handle 21 psi of boost and 400 whp.
This is all assuming I get it tuned right, and dont die. Haha
I have been to several auto cross events and i wasted supercharged 350Zs, STIs, Evos,........ by up to 5 seconds. I am running times with the slower track cars and it is still at 10 psi and no tune. A fast time at our track is in the 60 second range for a street car. I running around 56-59 seconds now. After I add the extra 100 hp and wider rear tires I hope to drop to the low 50s. That is what the really really fast cars run, and not one drives there car to the track like I do. haha
And I am a really bad driver . Not used to something so,,,,,,,,,,,, BRUTAL!
Last edited by hill160881; 09-29-2012 at 10:36 AM.
On hondas I seen it like I said before. I cant really say anything on your engine.
Hey on a different note get some videos up when you are at the track running it.
My GoPro died on me the last two times I will borrow a friends next time and get some video for sure!
wow, i've been silently watching this and admiring the job youre doing on it until I saw the MEGASQUIRT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ever done one before? HAVE FUN
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Well the $500 price tag and it plugs into the original wiring harness makes it worth a try. I debated this very thing for months and decided it was worth the attempt. The other option is a totally new harness and ECU. This option is WAY more expensive and the only gains are features I dont need. I here nothing burt good things about these units. I dont need a 30 square map. The stock map is 12 square and so is this new system. I spoke to several dyno tuners at shops and they said they have no issues with MS systems. For the final reason I want this to work,,,,,,, Its OPEN SOURCE!Originally Posted by BTAutoMag
Dont get me wrong, I have plenty of issues with the instructions and such but there costumer service techs has answered every question,,,,, even when I got a bit heated.
And lastly there is a guy on the forum dedicated to the 4ag engine that will help me get it all going for a very reasonable price and he likes and works with megasquirt, haltech, FAST, AMS.... He says they all work as good as the other but all have there short comings.
All I need is the ability to do basic performance functions and the ability to switch between maps for the driving type i am doing. This ECU does that and more.
Is there a reason you dont like megasquirt? Because I had a hard time finding bad reviews. Also I am quite good at figuring things out.
Last edited by hill160881; 09-29-2012 at 05:31 PM.
i dont disslike megasquirt... people like it because its open source. but I know alot of people who say "I love megasquirt, car runs great... when it runs"
The bold part has nothing to do with the ECU itself. They either work or they dont. It sounds like wiring issues or really poor tuning. The problem is it is DIY and from my experience few,even those with skills in the DIY area, are any good at at this level of diffuculty. The biggest mistake with MS systems is people think a street tune is good when you NEED to dyno tune it. Even then you need to do a resistance tuning through all the RPM ranges and not all dyno machines can do this function.......Originally Posted by BTAutoMag
DIY projects like this can test the sanity of the most skillful craftsman.
Either way i am hopeful it will work.
well if anyone can do it, hill, youre it
Any updates Tracy?
The car and ECU are getting a tune and some wiring work done right now. I found a local-ish guy on the forums that does tuning as a side job. Better to get the new computer and larger injectors installed prior to the water methane and nitrous.
So soon I should have initial numbers on the setup.
Also I have the race tires mounted and ready to rip.
Ok, so this is absolutely a thread necro... but I couldn't resist. I want to know how the story ends!!! Did you get the car finished up hill?