Wedge design.

[luke]

I plan on designing a wedge mount pretty soon, looking for input in what you guys like about them, or what you would like to see in one. I’ve never used one so I want to make sure all things are considered.

I’ll figure out a good angle and such, but when I’m going through the design process I don’t want to over look something you guys may like or dislike. Really I’m after information like how you like the marker to shoulder, marker and hopper height, things of that nature. Pros and cons will help will help.

[zondo]

NDZ Drop kick:



Fireball Mountain Power Angel:



I think both are about at 30*.

[river031403]

1. finally
2. 45 degree angle
3. direct mount to grip
4. cut for dovetail so on/off asa may slide back and forth(so it will fit inline maxflo reg)
5. i take one thanks
6. did the cad file i sent you work for you?

[luke]

So that is all you need in a wedge? Don’t want something different? Don’t care how it fits your shoulder? Height? Wrist angle? etc

[fierymartel]

Luke, I've used a wedge (NDZ Kick) for years and really like it. Bringing it up and swinging it out for snap shooting I find is much easier with the tank resting on the shoulder. I think you may need a greater angle that shortens the "pull" length when using a 68cui tank.

[zondo]

So that is all you need in a wedge? Don’t want something different? Don’t care how it fits your shoulder? Height? Wrist angle? etc

I don't have one to try, and not through my lack of looking either.

Are you going to try a couple of different angles on a couple different angle style of grip frames?

EDIT:
Might be interesting to see picks of markers shouldered with 45, 86, 90, Y, and Z grips.

[river031403]

So that is all you need in a wedge? Don’t want something different? Don’t care how it fits your shoulder? Height? Wrist angle? etc

aahhh mine will be used with a zgrip. I'm currently using one from FBM dont like though cuz i currently have to use a cp rail to have it work with my maxflo reg

[luke]

2. 45 degree angle

Why?

3. direct mount to grip

Is there a diffrent option?

4. cut for dovetail so on/off asa may slide back and forth(so it will fit inline maxflo reg)

They will be a dovetail mount.

5. i take one thanks

Cool.

6. did the cad file i sent you work for you?

Not really, (No offence, but you ask) it didn’t have any information I needed. These are pretty standard in regard to mounts (grip mount or reg mount)

I'm looking for information on what you guys deem comfortable and why, other wise I'll just design something I like.

[river031403]

Why?



Is there a diffrent option?




They will be a dovetail mount.




Cool.




Not really, (No offence, but you ask) it didn’t have any information I needed. These are pretty standard in regard to mounts (grip mount or reg mount)

I'm looking for information on what you guys deem comfortable and why, other wise I'll just design something I like.

i think im just gonna log off now. let me know when your done with them.

[fierymartel]

The lesser the angle, the greater the distance between the grip and shoulder. The object is to make for a tighter profile allowing you to snap quicker while staying tight by using the butt of the tank as a pivot against your shoulder. The greater the distance between the grip and shoulder, the wider your profile becomes when pivoting the marker off center one way or the other.

[fierymartel]

However, the greater the angle, the more uncomfortable it becomes in terms of the wrist. I hope this helps.

[sQuidvision]

I'll have a render for you in an hour or so... Possibly something with a bit more mass appeal.

[river031403]

However, the greater the angle, the more uncomfortable it becomes in terms of the wrist. I hope this helps.

unless you own a zgrip

[sQuidvision]

how about something adjustable?

[Ratt]

Quite frankly, I think there is very little to improve on with respect to the NDZ drop kick. I find the angle PERFECT for all my guns/setups. The design was simple, and fairly easy to install. The only problem I saw with the drop kick was that the bearings inside the drop kick were pressed in, and they were steel bearings. This meant that you could not take the bearings out and have the drop kick anodized to match your gun. And from what I was told, you can't anodize the piece an aluminum part with steel bearing still inside. So, in order to make a wedge that could be anno'd (by the user), you would either have to make the bearings out of aluminum (probably not feasible), find a way to secure the asa to the wedge without the use of setscrews and bearings, or design the wedge so you could easily remove the bearings, have it anno'd, then re-install the bearings.

If you wanted to get a little fancy with it, you could mill/engrave your own logo (if 'Luke's Customs' has a logo), or maybe the AGD logo onto the sides of the wedge... Honestly, you wouldn't have to make the thing fancy. Whatever you make, you can count me in for at least one (if not, two) wedges when you start selling.

I have tried (unsuccessfully) to find someone to take this project on. Believe me - I am THRILLED that you are taking this project on and moving forward with it.

[Ratt]

Zondo got me thinking, so I decided to take one of my dropkicks off of one of my guns and install it onto my Z-gripped RT (never did this before). As you can see, the setup is pretty tight. On the shoulder, it feels very comfortable. As is, there is very little room to slip your thumb in between the the grip and the tank. I can do it, but I have smaller hands. Someone with larger hands may or may not be able to fit their thumb in there. Some adjustments may need to be made in regards to the angle and/or how far forward or back the wedge mounts to the frame.

[luke]

I have thought about a fully adjustable wedge in the past, not sure where I want to take this though.

I have also done a few prototypes of a wedge with an offset reg mount to clear the wrist, it just didn’t work out well, it was a little awkward to shoulder.

[luke]

The only problem I saw with the drop kick was that the bearings inside the drop kick were pressed in, and they were steel bearings. This meant that you could not take the bearings out and have the drop kick anodized to match your gun. And from what I was told, you can't anodize the piece an aluminum part with steel bearing still inside.

Thats a fact, anodizing will eat the steal balls away.

So, in order to make a wedge that could be anno'd (by the user), you would either have to make the bearings out of aluminum (probably not feasible), find a way to secure the asa to the wedge without the use of setscrews and bearings, or design the wedge so you could easily remove the bearings, have it anno'd, then re-install the bearings.

I would not copy their mounting system anyway, I'll do something diffrent.

[Ratt]

I would not copy their mounting system anyway, I'll do something diffrent.

Awesome!

[Ando]

Those bearings can be popped out. Remove the set screw(s) on the side and using that same allen key. Install it where the set screws were to push the bearings out threw the bottom holes. They'll come out with little to no force.

Like luke said the offset wedge was awkward to shoulder. The biggest issues we had was clearance of the thumb like Ratt showed in his pic. The offset of the wedge fixed it but it threw off the LOS down the marker which most people use to aim. I never got use to or comfortable with it and I played with it a lot. Even took it to last years TB.

That whole project was a sore subject with both Luke and I and it got scrapped/put to the side.

Just keep it plain and simple. One angle which I would say NDZ got right for regular 45 and 90 frames and one that's angled a little more downward for say the Z-grip if you even want to go that route again

Only complaint I have using wedges and the Z-grip for that matter is after a while the tank reg digs into your wrist pretty bad. You def need to use gloves or wrist protection when using them.

Luke has a offset rail for the Z-Grip that fixed that issue and we tried to incorporate that offset with the wedge but..."it got scrapped/put to the side".

[luke]

Ando, I have not completely given up on it, now that I'm machining on a cnc mill things that posed issues (mainly a ton of time) on my manual have gone away, if I can figure out how to make it work I will certainly make some. I'm not sure if I should mess with it on this project or not, I'm still undecided on which way to go. I have materials for a standard wedge so I should probably just do those first. Once I get some information on the pros and cons of these I can do some different mock ups to get a personal feel for them.

[Coralis]

On your offset wedge do you think that using a twist so that the back of the bottle would be back on the center line would work for you guys. (I was reading the thread and the idea just kinda popped into my head)

[luke]

On your offset wedge do you think that using a twist so that the back of the bottle would be back on the center line would work for you guys. (I was reading the thread and the idea just kinda popped into my head)

That is pretty much what my off-set rail does, but the problem with incorporating in the wedge is it moves the tank into an awkward position on the chest.

[C_losjoker]

I have a hando cradle on my viking set, love how it works and very comfy. Looks forward to this.

[zondo]

Just keep it plain and simple. One angle which I would say NDZ got right for regular 45 and 90 frames and one that's angled a little more downward for say the Z-grip if you even want to go that route again

Now I wonder if an Endo style drop is a better option for Z and Y-grips because it would drop the tank down and open that gap for the thumb (at least, I think it would).

[C_losjoker]

Now I wonder if an Endo style drop is a better option for Z and Y-grips because it would drop the tank down and open that gap for the thumb (at least, I think it would).

damn auto correct, thats the cradle I have. I can put it on a z grip and take some picures.

[zondo]

damn auto correct, thats the cradle I have. I can put it on a z grip and take some picures.

I figured that's what you meant

[Ando]

The Endo would cause it's taller.

[darknite667]

While I like the 30 degree angle of my dropkick a slightly greater angle of say 40-45 degree angle would be more desirable in my opinion. While on the subject of new/improved wedge designs I would like the throw the idea of a wedge for the axe/mini out there. The use of bearings used to tighten in the dropkick and the asa in the mini bear a striking resemblance in the way they work. Food for thought.

[Ando]

The problem with a sharper angle is you start having clearance issues with your tank and the back end of the marker.