Finished my Pnuematic Trigger Frame...

[phishphen]

2-23-2012
All links updated and alive!!!! yaya

after slowly working on this experiment, i think i am finally done. I went to the field today to try it out and it worked out really well. In my opinion, this gun RIPS! The trigger pull is very light and i can definitely walk it. It was very reliable. There is a little learning curve to the trigger but that is what makes it fun to shoot cuz i will have something to always practice on....i cannot express how fun it is to shoot this gun now, all i can say is....im happy This is the first mod i have ever done to a paintball gun and being able to research AO for ideas on this and then have the final, reliably working, product in my hands is a really good feeling. MUCH THANKS to THE ELECTRICAN for posting his projects on AO!!
heres my phish MAG...




heres a vid of me shootin it.....it was really windy dat day...
dry firing Phish MAG



Tell me what you guys think.....i have a few more vids if you wann me to post

Heres some more pictures:

opposite view
exploded view of actuator
Internal #1
Internal #2

Heres a video of the internals. Please note that the gun is NOT firing, im only trying to show the pnuematic trigger cycling:
Internal Video

Heres another video wit some reballs. This was taken just after i finished the mod, so i was VERY GREEN wit the trigger....
Initial Testing w/ Reballs

OK. Here it is, the parts list:

I AM PROVIDING THIS AS A WAY TO HELP YOU GUYS UNDERSTAND HOW MY FRAME/GUN IS SETUP. THESE PARTS ARE NOT CONCRETE and YOU are the final authority on what parts you will use on your gun...if i forgot any parts i will attach it at the end of this list....

Parts from Clippard and Clippard Price List:
SMAV-3 (1) @ $9.80each OR MSV-1 (1) @$10.00 from FABCO Air
MPA-3 (1) @ $4.65each
11750-2 (1) @ $2.20 per PKG
11755 (1) @ $1.60 per PKG
(optional but recommended)
11752-5 (1) @ $3.45 per PKG
PG-101 (1) @ $12.20each
QEV (optional) @ $4.80each

Parts from your local Hardware Store/Home Depot:
1/4 x 1/2 64 set screw + TAP + Drill Bit (1)
4-40 3/16 set screw + TAP + Drill Bit (lots of them)
6-32 3/16 set screw + TAP + Drill Bit (not as many, but some)
Drill
Dremel + 3/4 cutting wheel (lots of them) + tungsten cutter (1)
epoxy glue

Parts from Palmer-Pursuit/local Paintball store:
Palmers Micro Rock @ $60
QEV (optional if you dont get it from Clippard) @ $8.00
micro-line (lots of it)

Parts That may need to be researched:
(i got these at an Aircraft Hardware Shop, but i think you may be able to get them or somthing similar at Home Depot. These 2 parts are what the piston in the actuator is made up of)
Riv-Nut P/N NAS1329A08-75 @ $1.00
Screw P/N MS24694-S3 @ $.50

Just added:
Consider any parts THE ELECTRICIAN or BOSSMAN might suggest.

02-23-2012
how to document..pdf of Version 2 Phishmag

[Yogster]

The link to the vid didn't work for me.Sounds interesting though.I'll check back later.

[master_alexander]

cool, and you are wearing a mask!

["the FitZ"]

what 3way did you end up using?

[phishphen]

the 3-way is a Clippard SMAV-3

[noahyay]

did you take the srping out of the 3-way?

what ram did you use?

where did you place the 3-way and ram?

[phishphen]

did you take the srping out of the 3-way?

what ram did you use?

where did you place the 3-way and ram?

i didn't take the spring out of the 3-way. i need the spring for the trigger return

ram = Clippard MPA-3

3-way is up near the trigger pivot and the ram is underneath

i'll put some detailed pics up of the setup if you want...lmk

[noahyay]

thanks

any milling involved?

[phishphen]

thanks

any milling involved?

yea, milling is required. I needed to make room for the actuator and the 3-way.
I used a Dremel tool to do it all. Actually, all the tools needed were pretty basic. if i needed a specific tool, it didn't cost me more than $10...

[Igotu]

pics please.

[zazzoo]

can u write a step list in making this?

[phishphen]

IGOTU: UP ^

can u write a step list in making this?

i can TRY. Give me bout a week or two...

[Duck Hunt]

Nice job!!! Looks killer man. What kind of LPR are you running on there? your pull looks much shorter, but have you tried getting a set screw in that trigger and seeing how sort you can actually get it??

Keep us posted!!

Sean

[phishphen]

Nice job!!! Looks killer man. What kind of LPR are you running on there? your pull looks much shorter, but have you tried getting a set screw in that trigger and seeing how sort you can actually get it??

Keep us posted!!

Sean

thanks man! the lpr is a Palmer Mini Rock (i am fortunate to live only 15min away from Palmer's store). right now the trigger pull at the bottom of the trigger is 3/32". I have set screws in place to limit the travel. I can get the trigger pull down to 1/16", maybe a LITTLE lower, but i want to ensure Positive venting and pressurization of the actuator, so i leave it at 3/32. I don't know how much force is needed to pull the trigger, but i have compared it to my friends E-bladed Autococker and they feel somewhat similar in "force requirement". So, inother words, trigger pull, to me, is very light...

[Duck Hunt]

Cool! I'm not at my personal computer otherwise I'd do it myself, but you should make a sound clip of you shooting it as fast as you can (practice with it alittle at first since your new to it) and figure out what BPS you're getting.

Terrific job man, evvvvvveryone needs to work on stuff like this for themselves!

Sean

[Igotu]

oh i see.

[Igotu]

wouldnt it be better if you used better 3-way hollo point or bomb?
If you used that ram what valve did you use then, or didnt you use a valve?

[noahyay]

looks pretty nice

got that video up quick!

[Duck Hunt]

Igotu, you're still thinking in "paintball" terms, those 3 ways you mentioned, they are actually "four" ways, their purpose is to activate a AIR Ram that needs air to move forward AND back.

The actuator he is using is a SPRING return that requires air to push it forward ONLY. The Clippard SMAV-3 is designed for this, and will give you probably the shortest pull instead of AUTOCOCKER 3 (four) ways.

The 3 way being actuated by the trigger, thats a VALVE, the thing pushing the sear back, thats a ACTUATOR or RAM.

http://www.clippard.com check them out.

Sean

[Dirge]

Is that a cocker frame? If not, then what is it? Whatever it is. it seems to have alot of room in it.

[Igotu]

so does the 3 or 4-way screw directly into the ram or acuator

[the electrician]

excellent!

great job! way to take the initiative and make it work.

you did the right thing going with the mpa-3. I cut the extra internal threaded end off for my application. shaved it right down to the internal snap ring. then made the "piston" for it out of a piece of 1/4" stainless rod. pretty easy to do. I used a piece of steel behind the sear to limit sear travel to the minimum required. uses less air and the recharge is better for the classic valve. are you limiting the sear travel at all?

so you also used the smav-3. it's super small size makes it a good candidate for this mod. you put it up high close to the trigger pivot point? the closer the better really. it's amazing how short the throw actually is on the smav-3 isn't it? lloks like you were walkin' it pretty easy. you'll be out shooting that revy shortly. I found that I can consistently walk at about 16 bps, so I went for the halo. very consistent feeding.

one thing. do really need the QEV? the MPA-3 shouldn't be using enough air to warrant the need for a QEV. can you tell any difference in performance of anything without the QEV? My intial thoughs were that unless you put it directly on the actuator, it's not really going to help and the extra hose actually just adds up to more restriction before you go to exhaust the air.
just something to think about.

also, have you tried removing the spring in the SMAV-3? the valve will actually return without it due to it's forward balance design. there is a delrin spool inside it. this spool is larger in the front than in the back where it seals between the output and the exhaust port. this causes the valve to return itself to ready position. the higher the operating pressure, the more it returns itself.

what psi are you running into the set-up?


once again excellent job.

[Bossman]

Yep, pull the spring out of the SMAV-3. Did this myself, makes the trigger pull very light....
Here's how..

The push pin of the SMAV-3 is what you want to pull on. The fitting that the pin goes through is not a screw in, just a press in. What I did was use a pair of end cutters (wire cutters) to grab that little indentation of the pin shaft, then pull outward. You can try gently locking the SMAV-3 body into a vice and then pulling the pin out. Be careful, those parts are small and easy to lose. Simply remove the spring and reassemble.

I've used it this way for about a month and have no trouble with the pin returning just using air.

Also another hint.... Remember that AIR PRESSURE also plays a part in the weight of the trigger pull. Lower the pressure needed to activate the gun and you can lower the pressure to the whole assembly! Think ULT...

The Electrician is the coolest cat for giving us the info to pull this off, big props to you man! if you play scenario, Geno, from the Grassy Knoll Gunmen's got your back....

Good luck and congrats..

[phishphen]

Is that a cocker frame? If not, then what is it? Whatever it is. it seems to have alot of room in it.

the frame is a DYE frame....before i started this project, there wasn't a whole lot of room. So i borrowed my friends Dremel and ground out the areas where i needed to put the 3-way and the actuator. The cool thing about this project, was that if i screwed up and it didn't work, i could still use the frame like i could before i started the project. The only difference would be, i would have a "ligther" frame due to all the milling Therefore, i wouldn't mess-up the functionality of my gun if the project went south...i would just be out a few bucks cuz of the parts....
I was also thinking of doing this mod to my z-grip, but i think i might wait cuz i wanna have fun wit this gun for awhile..

[dyeguy65]

can you please explain how you built the ram? ive been wanting to do a mod like this for awhile and this thread is a big help. but i dont understand how you put together that ram. i have no knowledge of pneumatics outside of paintball lol. any assistance is greatly appreciated.

[phishphen]

To THE ELECTRICIAN:

ThANKS MAN!!! it means alot comin from you!! SERIOUSLY

For the MPA-3 i did exactly how you described. For the "piston" though, i got a Riv-Nut and cut the head off it, then i got a 1/4 flush head screw that screwed right inside the Riv-Nut (riv-nuts are threaded inside). I then epoxied the bad boy to the derlin plunger then reasssymbled. Limiting the sear travel was a VERY important thing. i just drilled out the back of the frame, tapped it, then Loctited a Set-Screw in place. Placing the set screw to limit sear travel just enough to allow the gun to fire.

YEA, the smav-3 is perfect for the job. I have always had another idea in the back of my mind but i cant seem to work it out in my head....It has to do with Clippard part# MPS-2. It's a 2-way valve that has a "Full Stem Travel Force of 7oz" AND will open in as little as "0.0005" !!!!!!! w/ max stem travel of 1/16" If i could some how turn that into a 3-way op, it would be OFF THE HOOK!!!

You made a REALLY good point with reguards the QEV when i pm'ed you. I went ahead a did it cuz i only live 15 min away from Palmer Pursuit, and if it didn't really make a difference, oh well, i would be out 8 bucks. But when i installed it, the amount of short stroking really went down. I definitely agree you that putting the QEV on the actuator would be better, unfortunatly i didn't think about QEV's until the project was almost over. I didn't want to grind out more of the frame to accomodate the QEV on the actuator. It's more of laziness on my part. But if i were to do another frame, DEFINITLEY i would put the QEV on the actuator.

I never thought about removing the spring. OH BOY, this trigger will be VERY light then....

i have the Reg putting out 84 PSI. I just wanna ensure dat i have a Positive accuating force on the sear. I dont know why, but when i set the reg, after dry firing it a couple thousand times, the regulated pressure went down, so i had to turn UP the reg. This happened twice. I know cuz when i gas up, i pull the trigger and the gun wont fire. I can see the actuator trying to push the sear, but it doesn't have enough juice. so i turn up the reg and then it fires fine. Im thinking its the reg thats slowly being broken in....

Once again, Electrician, THANKS !! If i hadn't run accross your posts, i wouldn't be havin dis cool gun. THANKS

[phishphen]

Bossman:

Thanks for the instructions bro, i will give it a shot next time i dissassymble my gun....I'll post my comparisions...

[Bossman]

That spring accounts for a good deal of the pressure to actuate the SMAV-3. The tech at Clippard told me that valve pin would reset with air pressure alone as low as 25 psi!

I also had my eye on the MPS-2. I have an Idea that would work with this valve but the setup will be a little more complex than what were doing now. I'm going to do an experiment with this very valve after I get my mill up and running. Ill let ya know how it comes out.

[phishphen]

That spring accounts for a good deal of the pressure to actuate the SMAV-3. The tech at Clippard told me that valve pin would reset with air pressure alone as low as 25 psi!

I also had my eye on the MPS-2. I have an Idea that would work with this valve but the setup will be a little more complex than what were doing now. I'm going to do an experiment with this very valve after I get my mill up and running. Ill let ya know how it comes out.

25 psi...thats awesome! keep me informed on your idea of the MPS-2.....

Added the very first video taken of the Phish Mag. UP ^

[ScatterPlot]

That teeny little 2-way sucker looks awesome. I think I just might try this one out...