Whats up with PaintBalls?

[Beemer]

More STUPID in PaintBall.

Well it aint the CPSC[Consumer Product Safety Commision] at least.

Could be worse, the NIH or EPA.

http://thefordreport.com/2012/01/hel...ed-paintballs/

After being involved in paintball manufacturing & distribution since 1988, I find this new mold issue very disturbing. There is a lot of good info here, mixed with some errors. Our Industry simply cannot afford any negative attention from the EPA or governmental Health watchdog institutions.
- The black fungus, indoors or outdoors, can definitely cause serious bio-reactions in people, worse if they are allergic.
- The oils being used to cheapen the products are not petroleum derivitives, so some of the traits being assigned to "oils" in this thread are inaccurate; the kinds of oily residues being used and left behind on props & bunkers are the very mold GROWTH MEDIUM that is causing these fungal outbreaks.
- Regarding the concentrations as they relate to player health problems, once the fungus, mold and mildew get a foothold, the growth is evidently becoming much more rampant according to newer reports, so we should all be careful to avoid misinforming people to ignore this as a health risk. Fungal molds and mildews are ALWAYS dangerous to people and animals. - Paintballs being shot at the fungus-laden bunkers, walls and trees cause airborne spore dispersion, and this is simply never safe, indoors or out.
- The "filler" ingredient in EcoFill is inert, and supports no such organism growth.
- The core of the problem is this; a certain paintball redistributor from the past lowered prices again and again until he went bankrupt due to losses. Since then, two more distributors went bankrupt, another filed for reorganization. Now, one of these former distributors has returned with LOWER THAN previous bankruptcy prices, which can ONLY be achieved through notoriously cheap China laborers and tricks like oil fillers, with no regard for Americans health and safety. China is the world's worst environmental polluter, as widely reported in the news.
- If you have to sandblast with dry ice and spray BLEACH (another environmental hazard) just to kill all the molds and spores bought on by overly cheap paintballs, you have saved NOTHING and possibly cost the entire industry a giant headache if this information reaches the National Institute of Health or the Enviro. Prot. Agency. Yikes.
- Personally, I think that we, as Paintball enthusiasts, have to decide for ourselves if this is the way we want to support Paintball, driving all of the manufacturing to a communist country that has done nothing whatsoever to support our great sport for the past 30 years...

An Independent Lab, operated by the legendary Tom Kaye, has already been contacted to conduct these exact tests. Tom has an Electron Microscope - REALLY - and has extensive scientific background and experience in conducting scientific tests in controlled environments, following established science protocols for forensic testing, so I am now 100% confident that the genuine unbiased answers will be forthcoming.

http://www.pbriot.com/showthread.php?2408-black-mold

[knownothingmags]

Im sure Tom will do an amazing job and get this figured out.



i hope this dosnt make a huge dent in the sport.

[Justus]

I'm skeptical of any situation wherein a company puts out information in this fashion, and then draws attention to their own product as a solution. Especially when there are several other companies that have the same "solution", but are not mentioned at all. That being said, there is some factual information there that shouldn't just be ignored.

It's also why I'm so glad that I use Nelson Paintballs which are also 100% PEG with no oil, and manufactured in the USA.

[Drix]

This is a responce made for the developer of the balls in question, I will look for his information to send it personally...

I've never seen mold (especially black) growing on walls and such around paintball parks, as such this seems like a bit of advertising hype and a scam to me. Mold needs multiple items to grow: Specifically a food source, moisture, and usually a lack of light.

When you consider the variety of surfaces paintballs are indescriminatly applied, one would notice that an inflatable bunker, which itself is not a food source, could only support mold as long as paint stayed wet and not wiped down. Any field operator who diddn't wipe down their bunkers and just piled them up all slimey for weeks at a time might notice mold growth, but not likely before they noticed their bunkers just turned to **** and had to be moved into a large blue BFI container.

A paintball applied to a piece of arbitrary wood bunker would also dry out quickly, while the wood itself does offer a food source and could presumably host mold longer (especially with a stick bunker). The concentration of black mold in such an environment (being outoors) would be negligable and non-threatening to humans. The only real place I could see mold being an issue would be an indoor wooden structure with closed ventilation that was exposed to frequent moisture from an outside source.

So in short, what I'm trying to say is, this seems like a solution looking for a problem. Please, don't F up the prices of my paintball game because you think this is necessary. I'm so glad we're beyond the days of $100+ cases of paint- none of us want to go back. If you want to make paintball cleaner: please, take your super special balls, throw them in the toilet, and do the paintball comunity a favor; add a few drops of a good non-irritant soap to your mix so when I get home I can just throw my crap in the laundry and hit the heavy cycle and not have to worry about adding my own soap. Oh yeah, that'll probibly keep the imaginary mold off the bunkers too.

[tribalman]

add a few drops of a good non-irritant soap to your mix so when I get home I can just throw my crap in the laundry and hit the heavy cycle and not have to worry about adding my own soap. Oh yeah, that'll probibly keep the imaginary mold off the bunkers too.

no!! people like me will sometimes eat a paintball for a joke, or have a friend think it is a gumball and have them eat it!

not sure if this is why, but when i was a ref at an indoor field every weekend after work i was always super tired and my sinuses felt like crap.

[insixdays777]

Really...Really? Scary Mold or Oil that poisions mother earth?

I dont care what they put in the paintballs this sport wont survive $100 cases of paint now.

I dont care if its ground up baby seal blubber and food coloring or straight up texas gold. There are and have never been or ever will be any amount of paintaballs shot in the world that will harm the enviroment. To small of an amount against far to large of a God made resilent planet.

Remember the "greatest oil disaster of our generation" When was that 09? I cant even remember..... they said the gulf of mexico was "ruined" for the next 1000yrs. LOL. Gods design swallowed up our screw up and never looked back. I have been there, beach was fine, shrimp was great, saw fish and birds just like always.

Sorry for the rant. It just seems like everyone is trying to scare us out of our freedoms, from both sides be it a push for new wars or submission to the enviromental religion.

Please just leave my sport out of it! Paintball does not need more propaganda!

[Justus]

This isn't going to jack up the price of paint, because it's not a new development. The 100% PEG, no-oil paintball has been here for a few years now. You're probably already using them and don't even realize it. There are a lot of paint manufacturers that follow this process. Although Procaps has put out this kind of press release/advertisement, they don't really acknowledge the fact that a lot of their competitors also already manufacture the same or better quality and environmentally friendly paintball as well.

[wetwrks]

Really...Really? Scary Mold or Oil that poisions mother earth?

While I agree with what you are saying I do have to speak up about the bad effects of mold.

Personally I am just now getting moved back into my home after a multi-year battle with the HOA to get a mold growth issue fixed.

Personally I have experienced major allergies, sinus headaches on the level of migraines...towards the end they were happening several times a week, sinus/ear infections, all of this resulted in pressure on the nerves that control the left side of my face. I spent a number of months with the left side of my face paralyzed, unable to taste anything, and more than a year later when I eat my left eye tears up and my nose runs.

Do not take toxic mold lightly. Trust me, it isn't worth it.

[Beemer]

Really...Really? Scary Mold or Oil that poisions mother earth?

I dont care what they put in the paintballs this sport wont survive $100 cases of paint now.

I dont care if its ground up baby seal blubber and food coloring or straight up texas gold. There are and have never been or ever will be any amount of paintaballs shot in the world that will harm the enviroment. To small of an amount against far to large of a God made resilent planet.

Remember the "greatest oil disaster of our generation" When was that 09? I cant even remember..... they said the gulf of mexico was "ruined" for the next 1000yrs. LOL. Gods design swallowed up our screw up and never looked back. I have been there, beach was fine, shrimp was great, saw fish and birds just like always.

Sorry for the rant. It just seems like everyone is trying to scare us out of our freedoms, from both sides be it a push for new wars or submission to the enviromental religion.

Please just leave my sport out of it! Paintball does not need more propaganda!

The bold part about sums it up. You really REALLY don't care?

[Beemer]

This thread is from 08.

https://www.automags.org/forums/showt...highlight=mold

Good thread. Maybe Chronobreak, lohman and drg will chime in. Some good links that STILL work.

"Yay. Black mold. Its cute"

O.K that video right there made me care about what kind of paint I use.

I would question using it on a commercial field. Even if it is acceptable now.

Think of the clean-up issues involved with people who buy old gas stations with old in ground tanks for one example of long term negative effects, not just environmentally but on value. There are simply too many viable alternatives in my opinion to take the risks associated with using something you know has more of a negative impact than another readily available substitute. If price is the only reason you have for defense (not quality, flight, marking, etc), which it seems it is, you are treading on dangerous grounds that other industries have shown us the risks of over and over again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyethylene_glycol

Holy crap.........I quote myself. I keel me.

pH of Fill Material—The pH of the fill used in the
paintball shall measure between 4.5 and 7.5 as measured using
a 10 % solution of the fill in distilled water. Measurements
shall be made using a properly calibrated pH meter.


Paintball Fill Compatibility With Polycarbonate—
When tested in accordance with Section 4, no more than one of
the three polycarbonate tensile bars exposed to the fill material
shall develop a visible crack that is greater than 6.5 mm (0.256
in.) in length.

True it is that all paint eats Polycarbonate

Environmental Safety—Paintballs shall not contain environmentally
hazardous substances as defined in CERCLA
Regulations 40CFR302.4; SARAToxic Chemical List Section
313; Clean Air Act, Section 112B; and RCRA Regulations
40FRR261.24 through 40CFR261.33.

U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, “Designation of Hazardous Substances List of Hazardous Substances and Reportable Quantities,” Comprehensive Environmental Response Compensation and Liabilities Act, Bureau of Federal Affairs, 40CFR302.4, April 4, 1985.

U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, “Superfund Amendment and Reauthorization Act,” Environmental Protection Agency Regulation, Bureau of Federal Affairs, Title III, 1986.

U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, “National Emission Standards for Air Pollutants List of Hazardous Air Pollutants,” Clean Air Act, Bureau of Federal Affairs, Section 112B, 1967.

U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, “Definition of Characteristic and Listed Hazardous Waste, Identification and Listing of Hazardous Waste,” Resource Conservation and Recovery Act, Bureau of Federal Affairs, 40CFR261, May 19,1980.


Just because you are paranoid doesnt mean they arent watching us. When in fact they are.
C.P.S.C., E.P.A. and others

Sorry but this seem to get out of hand, with all of the concern regarding the environment lately, if a paint is oil base it will wash downstream eventually, consider that most field are in the rural area and near some type of creek or watershed. If the industry doesn't regulate it self then sooner or later an environmentalist will raise an alarm, a few endangered fish die and the industry will have a big problem on it hand. Consider that most field does not hold a very big political cloud, if an environmentalist raise an issues, it is not likely that the field can defend it self.

Oh crap......another quote by me.

No doubt about that. They still sell RED fill dont they.
You need to find out whats in the fill[think MSDS] and then my last post will help. That is from ASTM standards. I know for a fact the standards arent followed. So do the other folks.


drg.....The fact is, it is all supposed to be WATER soluble. If they need to PROMOTE a cleaner I would guess that it isnt. Wonder what is in the cleaner along with the fill in the ball we are flushing in to the environment. You arent one of those that dont CLEAN their gogs[remove lense] after taking gog hits after playing for the day are you? Oh wait thats right it dont hurt nothing you dont HAVE to. It is still true most or all paint eats Polycarbonate, Lexon, Lexan etc... Another thing, why should WE do testing? WHY dont THEY tell us if they have done testing. Guess they should do that HUH? The testing thing.


Lohman446.........Nice Post. You left out a few questions but thats a good start.

snip quote

Chronobreak -
If a company is using shady business practices, or crappy formulas, this is the perfect place to discuss it. Whether Nelson falls into these catagories, is up to each individual, but I try to be concious of whose hands my money ends up in.

So I would guess I NEED some MSDS's from the PaintBall manufactures before I start talking out my backside. Last time I tryed that I failed. That was about 2008.

On another note doesnt hell survivors still use[sell] RED paint.[or not]? Last I checked was 08.

[Beemer]

I'm skeptical of any situation wherein a company puts out information in this fashion, and then draws attention to their own product as a solution. Especially when there are several other companies that have the same "solution", but are not mentioned at all. That being said, there is some factual information there that shouldn't just be ignored.
It's also why I'm so glad that I use Nelson Paintballs which are also 100% PEG with no oil, and manufactured in the USA.

Yay I clicked the link. They changed their formula.

Nelson Paintballs are all PEG. Nelson does not use oil in any of its paintballs.

Nelson is 100% made in the USA.

So feel free to mention the Other companies. I like no oil and made in the USA. See where this is going? Spread the word and get people to CARE what paint they shoot.

[BigEvil]

No one cares... gib'me my $20 a case paint.






/sarcasm

[mostpeople]

Xball bronze fo lyfe

[Hobbez]

While I agree with what you are saying I do have to speak up about the bad effects of mold.

Personally I am just now getting moved back into my home after a multi-year battle with the HOA to get a mold growth issue fixed.

Personally I have experienced major allergies, sinus headaches on the level of migraines...towards the end they were happening several times a week, sinus/ear infections, all of this resulted in pressure on the nerves that control the left side of my face. I spent a number of months with the left side of my face paralyzed, unable to taste anything, and more than a year later when I eat my left eye tears up and my nose runs.

Do not take toxic mold lightly. Trust me, it isn't worth it.

I was going to keep out of this until the tests were done, but all these new pills are probly messing with my better judgment, so here I go. IF, and I say if, the test prove that oil fillers in paintballs causes mold, then something WILL need to be done. I am personally allergic to black mold. I'm currently in the process of negotiating my way out of a lease because our new apartment is full of black mold. Unfortunatly, it seems there are no laws in PA governing it unless you accept section 8 renters.

After spending sat and sun a week ago in the gettysburg hospital plugged into machines and pumped full of drugs in Anaphylactic shock, I have a new outlook on issues such as this.

If a field owner wants that on his head to get an extra $3 bucks a case out of his players, then hes not getting my cash at all. Or anyone's that will listen to me. And trust me, when my throat heals up, I WILL be loud about it.

Of course, if this is just a big PR stunt and TKs tests prove there is no mold issue, than its all a moot point then isnt it?

[Justus]

Yay I clicked the link. They changed their formula.

So feel free to mention the Other companies. I like no oil and made in the USA. See where this is going? Spread the word and get people to CARE what paint they shoot.

Of course, ProCaps and derivatives (Visible Impact now shows EcoFill labeling). And Nelson, like I mentioned I use.

Valken paint (all except the lowest grade Infinity) is all 100% PEG, no oil. That's what is going to be used at D-Day this year. I don't know if it's made in the USA or not, but I'm guessing not since they don't advertise it, and instead advertise that it's the cheapest, 100% PEG paintball in the industry.

Kee Action Sports (Empire, BT, JT) I can't find any advertising about what's all in there, except this article which mentions that they are "biodegradable" and use PEG as the "main" ingredient in the fill. Unknown if there is oil in any of them still, though.


I help build my .org's paintball field over the past two years, and we've been using Nelson paint exclusively. My field looks nothing like what is portrayed in russc's video, so I'm guessing Nelson must have changed their attitude about switching to 100% PEG pretty quickly. Every once in awhile I get someone wanting to bring in other paint, and I've allowed Valken on one occasion because I confirmed it to be 100% PEG. I figure if they want to go out and buy more expensive paint than what I offer, go ahead. I won't allow the cheap Walmart paint that stains like crazy and looks like it's filled with neon adhesive.

Don't get me wrong, I give props to ProCaps for starting the parade and beating the "100% PEG no-oil" drum, but let's not pretend they're the only one making noise in this area. I just hope their noise causes even more manufacturers to follow suit, and other paintball fields/players to start to care.

[hunter100]

way to name drop TK in the first post. What makes him qualified to assess the growth and health risks of mold? Yes, he is a smart guy and has done some very interesting research...on dinosaurs. I agree with the other posts above, this looks a lot like marketing hype.

[maniacmechanic]

way to name drop TK in the first post. What makes him qualified to assess the growth and health risks of mold? Yes, he is a smart guy and has done some very interesting research...on dinosaurs. I agree with the other posts above, this looks a lot like marketing hype.

Originally Posted by Craig Miller
An Independent Lab, operated by the legendary Tom Kaye, has already been contacted to conduct these exact tests. Tom has an Electron Microscope - REALLY - and has extensive scientific background and experience in conducting scientific tests in controlled environments, following established science protocols for forensic testing, so I am now 100% confident that the genuine unbiased answers will be forthcoming.

[hunter100]

Originally Posted by Craig Miller
An Independent Lab, operated by the legendary Tom Kaye, has already been contacted to conduct these exact tests. Tom has an Electron Microscope - REALLY - and has extensive scientific background and experience in conducting scientific tests in controlled environments, following established science protocols for forensic testing, so I am now 100% confident that the genuine unbiased answers will be forthcoming.

That's terrific, I saw it in the first post too. Please explain to me how this makes TK qualified to assess the health risks of mold to paintball players. A source would be nice too, by the way. And while you're at it, why don't you take explain why an "electron microscope" would be the proper tool used to study fungal growth (its not, by the way, but why bother with facts).

[maniacmechanic]

That's terrific, I saw it in the first post too. Please explain to me how this makes TK qualified to assess the health risks of mold to paintball players. A source would be nice too, by the way. And while you're at it, why don't you take explain why an "electron microscope" would be the proper tool used to study fungal growth (its not, by the way, but why bother with facts).

Hey I was just quotin from the OP , sounds like your the smart one , tell us all about it since you seem to know the " facts "

[bound for glory]

lohman! wonder where that nuts been?
and somebody bring back california magnums

[hunter100]

Mold is large enough that it can be studied with optical microscopes which are way cheaper than electron microscopes. And the expiriment doesn't really even need a microscope, you can see mold growing by eye. The fact that the OP desided to throw in the stuff about TK and electron microscopy made me immediately think b.s. A lot of other stuff in the OP is suspicious as well, it does not sound credible.

[Beemer]

The fact that the OP desided to throw in the stuff about TK and electron microscopy made me immediately think b.s. A lot of other stuff in the OP is suspicious as well, it does not sound credible.

I didnt throw in nothing. I just quoted and linked to what I saw on the interwebs AND asked the question. WHATS UP with paintballs?[Thread title] That is all.

You make youself sound like an expert so tell me [us] whats up.

Hells survivors made a stand and thefordreport posted it.

YOU know whats up? If so please elucidate and be explicit.

You missed my user title didnt you?

[hunter100]

I think that bunkers get dirty because fields don't take care of them, like many other people have said. The way the quoted text reads, it sounds like the owner of the field has some financial arrangement to sell eco friendly paintballs and is trying to justify high prices with crappy science. Honestly, it wasn't the first quote in the OP that pissed me off, it was the second one about TK's involvement. I simply asked for a source, and it was not provided.

A close friend who works at Fermilab, operated by the Obama and and the U.S. Government, has already been contacted to conduct these exact tests. They have a nuclear reactor, - REALLY - and have extensive scientific background and experience in conducting scientific tests in controlled environments, following established science protocols for forensic testing, so I am now 100% confident that the genuine unbiased answers will be forthcoming...right.