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Thread: Since the clock is running...

  1. #31
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    This is why I love AO. Paintballers taking shots at each other and at the end of the day, still can have a drink together afterwards. Sure there have been quirks on the site versus others but the mods here let adults be adults. TK and AGD will always be known in the history of paintball.

    I'm a regular over at MCB and I see on a weekly basis "New to Mags" thread. I always see in the BST mags for sale. Do I feel that AGD could make a comeback? Well that is the million dollar question! I feel with the right marketing and products, AGD could. Could they be competitive in speedball again? Why not? The cap is 13 bps now which is easily attainable with the X Valve. Products like the hyperframe and booyah frame would make mags attain the cap. Obviously AGD would have to make there own trigger frame but the technology is there. Kids are paying $1,000 to $1,500 for markers. Imagine the mag that could be built for that kinda of money? Maybe even for less. I have seen DM and NT markers go down for no apparent reason. Gotta a mag? Got some oil? Good to go. Oh I forgot, you might need a battery for the new trigger frame. How awesome would that be to see a team on the psp or nppl win events with mags?

    This is attainable and no so far fetched...think about it!!!

  2. #32
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    I think Shane is still grumpy about the Hamster.

    (Incidentally I made efforts to track it down this year, and/or to purchase another, but no luck.)

    I'm suddenly feeling insightful...

    There's few people that I'd venture to believe know what they're talking about when they say "old AO"... and I have to admit that a lot of my memories are through rose colored glasses. AO's heyday was when I was in college a decade ago, and paintball was my favorite release from the strain... to me it's a bright shining spot that introduced me to some excellent people who knew how to have a good time. Many of them grew into those I consider to be among my closer friends to this day. Its not coming back without some serious sweat and effort and literally global changes in the economy most of us live in... at least for me.

    This discussion and the panic I sense around it is comical. Old grudges arising. Bad blood from drama over the years starting to simmer again. The BEO/PBL stuff was hardly the only peak, or the first. Many trolls came and went, and a few of them even became rather upstanding members of the community (RUDZY YOU'RE MY BOY!). Many members have come and gone, too. How many old timers from AO meets do we try to track down every year? Marriages, Careers, Children, Life in general draws us apart.

    If TK intends to let the forum database wither and crash, so be it. I won't shed a tear. I have my memories and the friendships still. Those of us that still care to 'ball, have a good time and stir up a little mayhem from time to time won't let it stop us.

    AO is not a database. AO is not a forum or chatroom. AO is not drama (debatable ). AO is not an idea. AO is not a symbol. AO isn't a collection of Airgun Design Automag Zealots (anymore). AO is not owned by any one person or corporation. AO is not a memory. AO is not the sum of its parts or members.

    AO trascended all that into a culture, which won't be forgotten or abandoned to the nether.

    AO is dead. Long Live AO.
    My Feedback "Let's see some pictures of ridiculously long barrels" -BTAutomag.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by TOTShadowCompany
    This is why I love AO. Paintballers taking shots at each other and at the end of the day, still can have a drink together afterwards.
    It's called Tunaball... and it's happening again this summer!

  4. #34
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    My only question is...











    Wheres the Pie?

  5. #35
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    possibly make an AO FB Page?

  6. #36
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    I would leave that for Tom to do.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ando
    I would leave that for Tom to do.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by rifleman wi
    My only question is...











    Wheres the Pie?

    NO no NO no NO! DEFINATLEY!


  9. #39
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    I kind of forgot that AO was one of those forums that you should bring friends when you come because of the "social groups". They started off as little jokes but have evolved beyond that.
    "Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. Its not" - Dr Suess

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred
    I think Shane is still grumpy about the Hamster.

    (Incidentally I made efforts to track it down this year, and/or to purchase another, but no luck.)
    Did you check eBay?

  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by TOTShadowCompany
    I'm a regular over at MCB and I see on a weekly basis "New to Mags" thread. I always see in the BST mags for sale. Do I feel that AGD could make a comeback? Well that is the million dollar question! I feel with the right marketing and products, AGD could. Could they be competitive in speedball again? Why not? The cap is 13 bps now which is easily attainable with the X Valve. Products like the hyperframe and booyah frame would make mags attain the cap. Obviously AGD would have to make there own trigger frame but the technology is there. Kids are paying $1,000 to $1,500 for markers. Imagine the mag that could be built for that kinda of money? Maybe even for less. I have seen DM and NT markers go down for no apparent reason. Gotta a mag? Got some oil? Good to go. Oh I forgot, you might need a battery for the new trigger frame. How awesome would that be to see a team on the psp or nppl win events with mags?

    This is attainable and no so far fetched...think about it!!!
    Look at all the people who wind up buying BT-4ís or Tippmann-anythings, or any other trashy inferior marker. They should all be AGD customers.

    *In fact, everyone in paintball should be an AGD customer.*

    The problem is AGD doesnít want those customers.

    Of course, without customers, ďThereís no money to be made in paintball.Ē

    Vicious cycle.
    "Accuracy by aiming."


    Definitely not on the A-Team.

  12. #42
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    I could see a 5 man with egomags. I say we put together a team. even if we dont win we'd make a statement

    To leave feedback: Click seller/buyers name, Click feedback score, Click leave feedback

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by BTAutoMag
    I could see a 5 man with egomags. I say we put together a team. even if we dont win we'd make a statement
    Bhaaa...Classics with agitating hoppers, remote lines and 112 cubic in tanks strapped to the back. Now that would be making a statement and completely piss off the apposing team if you manage to slam them with their $1800 abc...xyz markers.

  14. #44
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    wouldnt cost too much to put a team together them

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by BTAutoMag
    wouldnt cost too much to put a team together them

    Travel & paint costs...

    Keep in mind, I was on an all mag team back in the day (PBX BlackCell) and AGD had the Lions and Pride. Doing it now would be neat though.

  16. #46
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    Oh Snap...I think I still have my 20 oz. I could use.

  17. #47
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    UWL is having a 5 man woodsball for cup. It's byop and only $300 for a team with no pro or D1 players on the team. Max is 10 bps. Would be interesting to have a team with just classic mags.

  18. #48
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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by going_home
    http://customcockers.com/forum/showt...664#post323664


    Shot right across the bow Beemer...........



    #4










    Could this be the cocker vs mag wars rekindling ?

    Looks like the post belittling one of our fearless mods was deleted.

    Appears someone over there has a level head.


  19. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by BTAutoMag
    I could see a 5 man with egomags. I say we put together a team. even if we dont win we'd make a statement
    +1 but the question is, are there any fields left in SE Wisconsin that are worth a damn?

  20. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by TOTShadowCompany
    I'm a regular over at MCB and I see on a weekly basis "New to Mags" thread. I always see in the BST mags for sale. Do I feel that AGD could make a comeback? Well that is the million dollar question! I feel with the right marketing and products, AGD could. Gotta a mag? Got some oil? Good to go.
    This is attainable and no so far fetched...think about it!!!
    I know I'm a newby here but those are reasons why AGD has lost some business, not a way to get some back. Fact of the matter is the more used Mags there are on the market, the less new Mags will be sold.

    One huge reason there has been less new AGD traffic is because of how darn well built their products are. Tippmann make more on their crappy detents that break and blow out the barrel than AGD does on all of their wear items combined. When something never breaks you never have to buy parts to fix it. And because there is so little to go wrong, you're almost never taking a risk in buying a used one so why would you want to pay more for a new one?

    When someone says "I'm having problems with my Mag" the answers are always "Put oil in it", "Go to the hardware store and buy some 10 cent O rings" or "replace your spring and sear(which are probably the only things most Mag owners ever buy from AGD)".

    Now if AGD brought the Sydarm back there would be some new business. And if they brought the Classic valved Mags back at a low price point, they would pick up pretty much all the Tippmann 98 and BT business. They would probably even pick up a lot of fleet accounts in fields that are replacing old rentals. I know that if I could buy 100 classic valve Automags for the same price as 150 Tippmann 98 Customs then my field would be renting Mags.

    Sorry about that drawn out response, its the businessman side of me barking.

  21. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by rifleman wi
    +1 but the question is, are there any fields left in SE Wisconsin that are worth a damn?
    I

    LOVE

    MY

    FIELD

    .
    .
    .


    stupid head

  22. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by going_home
    Looks like the post belittling one of our fearless mods was deleted.

    Appears someone over there has a level head.

    Thank GOD they don't have a Beemer over there or their server would probably have blown up by now too...lol. Grown men acting like children and leaving cause they didn't get their way. Pfft.

    Give it up to Listessa (Mod on CC). Her and I been BS'in back and forth, she's alright in my book.

    Beemer and I owes her a beer

  23. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Tempted
    Now if AGD brought the Sydarm back there would be some new business.
    The return of the Sydarm would probably be more than a decade late, overpriced, and underperforming in light of today's market.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tempted
    And if they brought the Classic valved Mags back at a low price point, they would pick up pretty much all the Tippmann 98 and BT business. They would probably even pick up a lot of fleet accounts in fields that are replacing old rentals. I know that if I could buy 100 classic valve Automags for the same price as 150 Tippmann 98 Customs then my field would be renting Mags.
    AGD has never seemed to care for the customer base at the lower price points. Cost reductions in the design seem to be rare. They happen, but they're rare.

    So things have languished, just like this forum's hosting -- on a priced-to-fail basis. Let's face it, $500 for an RTP/Tac One is a really uncomfortable price point to be at right now.

    The base mag engine is fine, but everything else in the mag ecosystem deserves a fresh look with an eye for increased functionality, decreased cost, and decreased weight.

  24. #54
    If they were able to offer another X valve exchange program, reseal the exchanged valves, package them in a low end body and turn them around for $75 a piece they would stay extremely busy.

    Heck that would be a good business to be in for anyone, not just AGD. How many of us would gladly mail in our Classic valves and 100 bucks for an X valve? The exchanger gets the 100 bucks plus another 75 or so when they turn the Classic back around.

    Best yet, imagine taking those returned Classic valves and packaging them in stock, open and unlimited class pump packages.

  25. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoatBoy
    So things have languished, just like this forum's hosting -- on a priced-to-fail basis. Let's face it, $500 for an RTP/Tac One is a really uncomfortable price point to be at right now.

    The base mag engine is fine, but everything else in the mag ecosystem deserves a fresh look with an eye for increased functionality, decreased cost, and decreased weight.
    I would spend $500 on a mag over any $1,000 to $1,500 speedball marker out there. $500 price point is a good market to be in. Make a ULE mag with some sort of eletronic trigger frame and bam. Winner winner. Ok maybe $599 with the new trigger frame.

  26. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Tempted
    If they were able to offer another X valve exchange program, reseal the exchanged valves, package them in a low end body and turn them around for $75 a piece they would stay extremely busy.

    Heck that would be a good business to be in for anyone, not just AGD. How many of us would gladly mail in our Classic valves and 100 bucks for an X valve? The exchanger gets the 100 bucks plus another 75 or so when they turn the Classic back around.

    Best yet, imagine taking those returned Classic valves and packaging them in stock, open and unlimited class pump packages.
    For starters, the X-valve trade in program was classic valve + $225, not $100. In fact, your math is currently hurting me so I'm going to stop here.

    I think I asked a long time ago what AGD did with the classic valve trade ins (after having some remorse). I think they were turned to slag or something. Kind of a shame.

    I did trade my minimag valve in for an X-valve. And I regret it. I kept the X but soon bought some more classic valves again. Classic valve works just fine for me; a little on the heavy side, but that's fixable.

    I do think that a limited paint market is starting to open up. It doesn't necessarily have to be a pump.


    Quote Originally Posted by TOTShadowCompany
    I would spend $500 on a mag over any $1,000 to $1,500 speedball marker out there. $500 price point is a good market to be in. Make a ULE mag with some sort of eletronic trigger frame and bam. Winner winner. Ok maybe $599 with the new trigger frame.
    I'm sure you would.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

    Not all guns that AGD is competing with are speedball guns, and not all guns, speedball or not, cost $1000-$1500. So it's false in two different ways. Nice.

    Here is a painful sample list of the markers that a $500 mechanical RTP/Tac One is in the neighborhood of:

    • BT TM-15
    • BT TM-7
    • Tippmann Crossover
    • Tippmann Phenom X7
    • Empire Axe
    • Invert Mini
    • Planet Eclipse Etha
    • Planet Eclipse Etek 3
    • Dangerous Power Fusion X
    • Proto Reflex Rail
    • MacDev Drone
    • ... and many more!


    The electro option is a sticky subject; in the meantime, there are other things to look at.

    The product is currently just priced to fail.


    I love my automags, but refusing to look at this from the perspective of a new (or even experienced) player and understanding the range of choices he has is *not* going to help.

  27. #57
    Yeah I'm familiar with what the X valve exchange program cost. But looking through the entire valve there isn't more than $20 worth of material cost, they can be sold at $100 and turn a profit. After you consider that you'll have about 2 bucks in soft parts to rebuild the Classic valve there is money to be made there as well.

    When companies are failing/dying they need to understand that maintaining their current practices are what led to the collapse. AGD's only true fault is the price they demand. They have excellent customer service and some of the most durable products on the market. But a mechanical marker for $500+ isn't going to sell. Lower the price, increase total quantity sold, make more money than selling few markers at high prices while also getting your markers into the hands of many. After you build a large following, start creeping back up in price. Look at the Honda Civic. Back in the late 80s/early 90s they started selling them for almost nothing but still offering a dead reliable vehicle. Fast forward to today and you can spend $35 grand on one because of its reputation and consumer demand.

  28. #58
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    AGD's business model was never supposed to be about fighting with WGP, WDP, SP, etc for a larger piece of the pie. Nor was it supposed to be a race to the bottom in price.

    TK and Bud Orr reasoned that cooperative efforts between the manufacturers could grow paintball. As the size of the pie increased the amount for each seller would increase and allow room for the growth of the industry as a whole. Think of it as a "nirvana" of business. Yes there is some competition between manufacturers but they are all working together as well to grow the overall market base.

    SP's antics made it very clear that the business model was done. Simply building and demonstrating a superior product was not the name of the game any longer - it was about marketting and hype. When that did not work the industry could fall back to fighting over overly broad patents - waisting potential profits in the court

    Some people simply do not want to fight those kinds of battles. Look at who has exited paintball and the innovations they brought. If not for Ben Tippman and the pin valve we would not have the tanks we have today. If not for TK and HPA in paintball we would not have the markers we have today. If not for WDP and PneuVentures we would not have the electronic markers of today. The great companies that brought innovation to paintball and SHARED it (at least to some degree) have been drug down by the companies who do not innovate but rely on marketing and hype. Knowing how TK has done things in the past is it any surprise that he does not want to play that game?

    Is there money in paintball? Sure there is. But where is it? Its for the companies that are willing to build a product not intended to last and market it heavily. I still remember reading my first Automag manual that talked about the investment in the marker and how it would last for years to come.... The game that would have to be played to make money in paintball today does not look interesting to me nor does it look to be a game that AGD has played in the past.

  29. #59
    That's nice.

    Yes, the game changed. And then the game changed again. And now I think the game is changing once more.

    Currently, there is only one manufacturer that can make Automags as far as I know, and thatís Airgun Designs. Someone correct me if Iím wrong. And they probably continue to make them at high cost, and sell them at a comparably high price, without any revisions or updates.

    You want to talk about sharing? You want to talk about how thereís no profit to be made in paintball?

    I say we pry (buy) the Automag IP out of the cold, dead hands of whoever happens to be clutching on to it, release it to the public, and see who wants to start making Automags anew. I think someone would probably be able to pick things up and make a really good gun at a really good price and turn a profit while doing it. Or an individual can just draw up the exact part they want and send it to a 3d printer. Or people can pool together for short runs of stuff they want from a machinist.

    That way people like Tempted are free to do what heís proposing if he really thinks the idea will work.

  30. #60
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    I think some of you confuse material costs with costs to produce and bring to market as well as value of IP.

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