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Thread: Since the clock is running...

  1. #61

    A little of topic/well maybe not

    We are talking about pricing of agd products? And how to attract new members and tell the new generation about agd?LETS HIT THE DRAWING BOARD!!!!! We live in 2012 we landed on mars again.I love the x valve,but we need a new valve. A More efficient valve .so we can use smalller tanks and posably change where the air enters the valve.agd is amazing but a crazy air hog,we have every thing except air efficient valve.I know I will buy one

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Lohman446
    I think some of you confuse material costs with costs to produce and bring to market as well as value of IP.
    What’s your point?

    Do you think it’s a bad idea?

    Or are you just trying to educate us?

    Perhaps both?

    Or neither?

    What’s your interest here? It’s somewhat hard to understand what your interest is exactly, but reading through your posts, I would say you are distinctly not interested in automag products. You do seem quite interested in making explanations for the status quo, many of which seem to be of an undocumented variety.

    So what’s your point?
    "Accuracy by aiming."


    Definitely not on the A-Team.

  3. #63
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    It's pretty clear to me what he's saying...

  4. #64
    The goat guy seems to be on a mission.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Lohman446
    I think some of you confuse material costs with costs to produce and bring to market as well as value of IP.

    I'm very aware. And at $100 you can make money on the valves after material and overhead.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Tempted
    I'm very aware. And at $100 you can make money on the valves after material and overhead.
    Whoa, where you getting those numbers from?

    I dont know if you have dealt with manufacturing a product and selling it, but you are WAY off base, unless your "Profit" is like 1$. To get a price low enough to make a decent profit off, you first have to order at least 1000 or so, then factor in insurance to cover any person who sues you for getting hurt by your product, then your time is NOT free. Also dont forget all the little items you have to have made, and bought, O-rings, on-off pins, reg pistons, etc. Remember that to compete price wise with the other companies, you have the issue of labor, most others are getting stuff made in China or somehwere other than USA where labor costs is so much lower than here, and then you have to ship the product here, with less quality also. No price out a quality USA made gun and what it would cost, and you cannot compete with the other companies on price, no matter how much better your product is. AGD is a niche market for people who dont mind spending more for a higher quality gun.
    I have nothing good to put here...........



  7. #67
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    To leave feedback: Click seller/buyers name, Click feedback score, Click leave feedback

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoatBoy
    What’s your point?

    Do you think it’s a bad idea?

    Or are you just trying to educate us?

    Perhaps both?

    Or neither?

    What’s your interest here? It’s somewhat hard to understand what your interest is exactly, but reading through your posts, I would say you are distinctly not interested in automag products. You do seem quite interested in making explanations for the status quo, many of which seem to be of an undocumented variety.

    So what’s your point?
    My point is this. A company making money looks incredibly easy from the outside looking in. Actually doing it is an entirely different story. My suggestion is BEFORE you put up a lot of capital on something that looks so simple that you fully consider it and talk to people in the industry or with business experience. When I see people explaining to me how much profit is available in something and then list only material costs it makes me wonder who they intend to hire to do it, manage it, handle payroll issues, proper business licenses, insurance (there is a big list, you get the point).

    I don't care what you guys do with your money. My suggestion is before you start dumping money into it that you have an operational plan and have actually considered a working business budget.

    My point is that it is a massive error to confuse cost of materials with cost of production and distribution.
    Last edited by Lohman446; 09-18-2012 at 11:44 AM.
    "Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. Its not" - Dr Suess

  9. #69
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    I've been here for over 7 years and have quite a few posts. Some of you know me, some of you don't. At our peak in about 06/07 AO Socal alone had 60+ people coming out regularly. Times have changed, a lot of us are broke, and can't afford to play. Some of us still play, but not with mags.

    I promise that there will always be a mag in my stable (because I spent so much money on a couple of them, I'd be stupid to sell em).

    I don't have money to "save AO" but if she dies, I still have my memories, my friends and Tunaball, where we meet every year for the last 6 years and I've made some of my best friends off this forum, I know these guys by there first and last names and there wives and kids, were brothers because of this forum and for that I thank you TK. I do not want to see our forum die, but she has withered away for years now and it makes me sad.

    I do wonder sometimes what she would look like updated with new software, avatars, a chatroom and signatures and all. Would people come back? Thinking the other day, I believe me and my friends are now part of the old guard, I see new posters and no longer know who they are, I see the same thread topics you see every couple months and remember when I made those threads myself.

    There was a time I didn't even know how to change the velocity on my frst mag, a karta tunamax emag, and forget about tuning a lvl x, lol. Now I'm a "mag guy" I can fix the damn things just by staring at them long enough.

    This isn't my goodbye, because everytime I wear my AGD shirt, sweater, hat, jersey or end up on Creamridge, NJ next year, the AO spirit will be alive and well

  10. #70
    I haven't been into Mags very long, but I have been into paintball a while. The reason it took so long to get into Mags is because of two reasons:

    The cheap Mags cost more than what mid range electros run. They have slow cycling, 100lb trigger pull, are as efficient as Grave Digger and have barrels that are unique to them only.

    The Mags that compete with mid range electros($200+/- used) are $500+.


    There is no incentive for new players to buy them. Now that I'm a little older and enjoy classic markers, I love them. They are bullet proof and are overall just cool. But most Mag owners are just that, older and play with them for the nostalgia and cool factor. Once we get a few we don't need to buy anymore. And seeing as how it makes no sense to buy a new ULE Custom for $700 when you can get used ones for $300, why would you buy a new one? Brand loyalty?

    This company will die if it can't pull in new customers. It won't pull in new customers with its current business plan. Where it gets interesting is when it does die. Then you will have some guys who are smaller part producers becoming the only sources for Mag parts. They will grow, their quantity will go up, their product range will evolve and we might get competitive parts for the right prices. Then Mags may come into demand, but AGD won't be here producing new markers. All older Mags will be sought after and once they're gone, they're gone.

  11. #71
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    I don't believe the current discussions were about saving AGD the company ,we have no control over that. Save this forum.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tempted
    I haven't been into Mags very long, but I have been into paintball a while. The reason it took so long to get into Mags is because of two reasons:

    The cheap Mags cost more than what mid range electros run. They have slow cycling, 100lb trigger pull, are as efficient as Grave Digger and have barrels that are unique to them only.

    The Mags that compete with mid range electros($200+/- used) are $500+.


    There is no incentive for new players to buy them. Now that I'm a little older and enjoy classic markers, I love them. They are bullet proof and are overall just cool. But most Mag owners are just that, older and play with them for the nostalgia and cool factor. Once we get a few we don't need to buy anymore. And seeing as how it makes no sense to buy a new ULE Custom for $700 when you can get used ones for $300, why would you buy a new one? Brand loyalty?

    This company will die if it can't pull in new customers. It won't pull in new customers with its current business plan. Where it gets interesting is when it does die. Then you will have some guys who are smaller part producers becoming the only sources for Mag parts. They will grow, their quantity will go up, their product range will evolve and we might get competitive parts for the right prices. Then Mags may come into demand, but AGD won't be here producing new markers. All older Mags will be sought after and once they're gone, they're gone.
    PPS still exists. You can operate within a niche market and survive.

    Would it be nice if we could go buy new mags for $100? Sure, I guess. However one has to question if it is within the realm of reasonable expectations given the current intellectual property, materials, tolerances, and other factors that influence price. There is a reason that modern markers are going to the set-ups they have now. With exception of the computer control system tolerances can be fairly large compared to a mag and still work out of the box.

    Wanting something and being able to build a sustainable business model to get there are different things. PPS and any number of niche companies have shown that it is possible to manage with smaller market share. The marker you could build to compete with current markers on the low end would look a lot like the markers you are trying to compete with, not the mag you love. Now if we are talking a $1500 ultra-high end mech and TK is willing to produce a gun with some of the features he hinted towards years ago we are in a different game (and yes, I still lay claim to the first one, I offered to put a deposit on it years ago).

    As is pointed out above me there is a difference between saving AGD and saving AO. I have already put in my contribution to AO. Luke is going above and beyond. Others have as well obviously. Saving AO is about imminent financial issues not about rebuilding AGD. Rudz is right though. AO will live on one way or another in the end.

  13. #73
    Without new customers, AGD will fall. When that happens, all sites and forums will also eventually fall. To save AO you have to rely on AGD.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tempted
    Without new customers, AGD will fall. When that happens, all sites and forums will also eventually fall. To save AO you have to rely on AGD.
    Why? There are a lot of forums that are user supported or supported through themselves (advertising) without being directly tied to a manufacturer. Once upon a time AO was independent.

  15. #75
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    im on another site about dodge neons... they dont make those anymore and the site is GROWING. you dont need a successful product to have a successful forum

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by BTAutoMag
    you dont need a successful product to have a successful forum

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by BTAutoMag
    im on another site about dodge neons... they dont make those anymore and the site is GROWING.
    How sad.

  18. #78
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    yes yes. hit the kid who drives the neon he has no feelings

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by BTAutoMag
    yes yes. hit the kid who drives the neon he has no feelings
    LOL. I don't care what you drive, but the fact that there is a forum dedicated to it is quite sad. Heck I drive a 14 year old Isuzu Rodeo, I have no business judging peoples rides.

  20. #80
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    there are some INSANE cars on there.


    Quote Originally Posted by OPBN
    I drive a 14 year old Isuzu Rodeo
    and you have my sympathies

  21. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by BTAutoMag
    there are some INSANE cars on there.




    and you have my sympathies
    No sympathies needed my friend. 150k miles and the only thing I've ever replaced besides batteries, tires etc is a starter and exhaust peice. Been one of the most reliable vehicles I have ever owned actually. Bought it new in 98.

  22. #82
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    well I used to be a mechanic... I would run when one of them came in. in the end, I dont have to think about fixing my neon. its so simple its stupid

  23. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Lohman446
    My point is this. A company making money looks incredibly easy from the outside looking in. Actually doing it is an entirely different story. My suggestion is BEFORE you put up a lot of capital on something that looks so simple that you fully consider it and talk to people in the industry or with business experience. When I see people explaining to me how much profit is available in something and then list only material costs it makes me wonder who they intend to hire to do it, manage it, handle payroll issues, proper business licenses, insurance (there is a big list, you get the point).

    I don't care what you guys do with your money. My suggestion is before you start dumping money into it that you have an operational plan and have actually considered a working business budget.

    My point is that it is a massive error to confuse cost of materials with cost of production and distribution.
    I think your suggestions are totally appropriate for anyone who is going to do what you say -- put down capital on starting a business venture.

    And now here’s my point: I do not intend to start a business.

    My suggestion is to simply crack open the IP (which you have claimed I mis-valued, even though I never stated a number, and the fact that I indicated that it should be purchased means I gave it some non-zero value, and of course you have not stated by what degree I’ve mis-valued it) and allow someone who might want to investigate this to do it in greater detail. That includes “proper business licenses”.

    That way someone like Tempted can do what he wants if he really thinks it works, in the open, with original specs, etc.

    Maybe they want to start a business, or maybe they just want to make a one-off part. Or maybe they’ll just contract a run of parts. There are many shades of gray here where you only seem to see green.

    Again, your posts on this general subject have little by way of information or interest in automag products at all, and you don't even care what we do with our money anyways.


    If it really is your point just to warn investors to do their homework -- great, we got it. Thanks for your “concern”.

  24. #84
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    Ok, I have been fairly nice.

    This is what I am tired of already after being back a very short time and watching very limited threads:

    I am tried of people second guessing and making this "oh TK should have... or AGD should have..." I give an exception to the people who thought AO should be different and stepped up and built a successful forum. I give people like Luke, who wanted something different, built and offered it incredible amounts of credit. However there are a lot of people on here who think it is so simple and straight forward and AGD just did not try or it would have been so easy. Oddly enough these people never seem to grasp the reality of business even when it is pointed out to them by people who have been there and done that.

    Here is a hint: AGD has had its IP stolen in the best (google the Colonial paintball marker) and not stepped up and taken anyone to court over it. In fact they have been more than willing to lend the use of trademarks and other IP. If you have such a remarkable idea and all that is stopping you is some IP I suggest that TK may very well rent you the IP cheaply (maybe not, I do not presume to speak for him) and that the IP is probably not worth defending in court.

    There are a lot of people who want to second guess everything that AGD and TK did and the reasons they did it. If you can do it better step up. Its very easy for us to risk someone elses capital and pluck numbers out of the air on how cheaply we could produce something and the price we could sell it in vast quantities for.

    Successful companies are often those that started in the face of a lot of criticism and stepped up anyways and said can to. However all the "can to" I see on this board is empty with very few actually willing to step up and stick their necks out. Question TKs decisions and AGDs all you want but understand that the decisions they made were made when they had sticks in the fire. Its very easy to say "you should" or "you should have" from a distance. If you have the answers on how easy it would be to make AGD great again put them to use. Invest your money, your time, your effort and your soul into doing it. However get off the sidelines and quit complaing about those who are or have.

    When you are able to manufacture and successfully market as more than a niche company a marker based off the mag design in America with a level of service and quality up to the standards of AGD I will even apologize for nay-saying and buy one. Of course with all the money available in paintball still it will mean nothing to you.
    Last edited by Lohman446; 09-20-2012 at 07:32 PM.

  25. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lohman446
    Here is a hint: AGD has had its IP stolen in the best (google the Colonial paintball marker)
    I am pretty good with working the Goggle search on the interweb Masheen, but I couldn't find anything.

    I'm interested, anyone have any links to this marker?

  26. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by shooter311
    I am pretty good with working the Goggle search on the interweb Masheen, but I couldn't find anything.

    I'm interested, anyone have any links to this marker?
    You were not kidding about it not being a simple Google search. I was going off memory and thought maybe I had screwed up the name. Here is a thread that discusses it on MCB

    http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/m...-colonial.html

    The MCB thread indicates there was a threat of legal action. I could be wrong on how I remember the story but as I recall it the failure of the company was competetive. AGD was able to economically keep them from ever being a player by offering a better package and price.

    This is an old AO thread that may be where I got that thought from:

    http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...light=colonial

    Another old AO thread where the Webmaster stated it was economic competition

    http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...light=colonial
    Last edited by Lohman446; 09-21-2012 at 09:28 AM.

  27. #87
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    http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...light=colonial

    Pay close attention to Manike's response in this thread and then compare it to discussion in other threads. Copying the AGD valve to the tolerances needed to make it reliable is not simple. Others have tried and failed in the past.

  28. #88
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    Very interesting, I had no idea there were copycats. It is funny how they didn't even try to mask the Colonial , it was a spitting image of the Mag. Very clever of TK to package deal the mag.

  29. #89
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    Speaking of "second guessing", I get to watch things get designed by committee pretty often. When we want something done right, we get one guy to design it and another to check it. If it's complicated, it gets broken up. If it's not perfect, you iterate. Never do you stack more brains onto the same issue unless you are pushing another aside.

    I say let the man work. At it's worst, it can't be worse than a pre-order or more laughable than the Luxe girl (her pseudonym will come to me later). If we continue to have the "go-to" place for new mag owners (of old mags), we will be able continue to support our custom market and our spares stores. I would guess there's quite a few mags floating around out there that we haven't modded or upgraded yet. I've got plans for a few more.

  30. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Lohman446
    I am tried of people second guessing and making this "oh TK should have... or AGD should have..."
    That's it in a nutshell. That's what I was looking for. Sweep aside all faux reasoning and this is what you're left with.

    Your problem is the idea that we’re questioning your god.

    But your problem is, well, not my problem.

    Anything else from your posts is either outdated (by nearly 2 decades), or just baseless to begin with. I leave it to the other readers to consider the big picture, if they are able.

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