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Thread: Fully pneumatic production marker?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frizzle Fry View Post
    Which is all Armson/Benchmark/PTP property.
    PTP made a pneumatic marker?

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPBN View Post
    PTP made a pneumatic marker?
    Nope... but I believe they own the patent on it. That is why you see only pneumag kits and the G-force guys had issues from the beginning getting their frames.

    Also, didn't AGD mess with a pneumatic trigger? AGD Rob has the HAir, or something...

  3. #33
    You mean the same ptp that screwed up all those MICROMAG bodies? Yikes hate to see the fix on there pneumatic setup

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by zondo View Post
    Nope... but I believe they own the patent on it. That is why you see only pneumag kits and the G-force guys had issues from the beginning getting their frames.

    Also, didn't AGD mess with a pneumatic trigger? AGD Rob has the HAir, or something...
    yeah colin fron DW and AGD Rob were working on the Hair...i think...i know they had some Sa WeeT Dallaras with a Hair Trigger

    hair trigger Dallara:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5MalRXBI4s

    G-Force Mag:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbxFFzorMoU
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLE_mtAOBq4
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSAdhmRHOYY
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgxNg0RGLis
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cODXxzpqb4g

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by need4reebs View Post
    has anyone posted pics of the guts of the hAir? Dang that pull looks tight...

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by zondo View Post
    has anyone posted pics of the guts of the hAir? Dang that pull looks tight...
    mite wanna ask AGD Rob? but thats the only video i have seen of it!!! there are a few Autococker Hair trigger videos that show the internals tho?

  7. #37
    I would love for somebody to build a hair out of a bob long type frame something with some room for the fingers to fly

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by river031403 View Post
    I would love for somebody to build a hair out of a bob long type frame something with some room for the fingers to fly
    or a UMF frame?

  9. #39
    Ya umf frame is cool maybe a little slimmer though IMO

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by river031403 View Post
    Ya umf frame is cool maybe a little slimmer though IMO
    wat u got girly hands...tha UMF is slim enough

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by river031403 View Post
    You mean the same ptp that screwed up all those MICROMAG bodies? Yikes hate to see the fix on there pneumatic setup
    The same PTP who has been in the paintball business for almost 25 years?

    The same PTP who invented the HalfBlock Autococker?

    The same PTP who released the first 45 frame for Automags and Autocockers?

    The same PTP who invented the UniBody Automag?

    The same PTP who released the first Autococker-Threaded Automag body?

    The same PTP who designed a mechanically walkable frame that could swap between Autocockers AND Automags?

    The same PTP who designed the first VM68 body that could be field-stripped without tools and supported a vertical bottle?

    The same PTP who teamed up with Tom Kaye and FN Herstal to design the FN-303, the ultimate less-lethal weapon?

    The same PTP who designed an integrated detente system during an era when many went without, one that lasts 15+ years without rebuild?


    ProTeam Products, Benchmark and Armson were pioneers in the industry since it could be considered an industry. They partnered with Tom Kaye and Bud Orr (the godfathers of paintball) and PK Selective (the daddy of creative anodizing) to create the original Private Label marker, complete with never-before-seen technological upgrades and modifications that would not hit production markers until literally years later. PTP was offering wild color schemes when markers came in "black" or "gray", before major companies even offered the standard "Red, Blue, Black, Silver" lineup. They were also well ahead of the curve with MilSim upgrades for the Tippmann product line, offering military grade stocks/sites/for-ends years before the big MilSim sites started pushing plastic, almost a decade before Tippmann (and then BT) started offering factory packages.

    Before you tear them a new one, look at what they've done. PTP has a few dozen "wins" on the books, less than a handful of "draws" (products that didn't take off), and only one real "loss"; the Micromag 2009. They have 6 generations of AMAZING Micromags that to this day sell for the same price as a brand new modern mid-range electro. They make mortars and landmines for the US Military now, and sighting systems for all manner of different firearms manufacturers. Paintball has been the last thing on their minds for about 8 years, and when they came back by the DEMAND of a few long time fans to create a marker that they knew they wouldn't make dime one on, they did, and it was not a success. Be that as it may, they still created some of the greatest paintball products ever made and that should be acknowledged.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frizzle Fry View Post
    The same PTP who has been in the paintball business for almost 25 years?

    The same PTP who invented the HalfBlock Autococker?

    The same PTP who released the first 45 frame for Automags and Autocockers?

    The same PTP who invented the UniBody Automag?

    The same PTP who released the first Autococker-Threaded Automag body?

    The same PTP who designed a mechanically walkable frame that could swap between Autocockers AND Automags?

    The same PTP who designed the first VM68 body that could be field-stripped without tools and supported a vertical bottle?

    The same PTP who teamed up with Tom Kaye and FN Herstal to design the FN-303, the ultimate less-lethal weapon?

    The same PTP who designed an integrated detente system during an era when many went without, one that lasts 15+ years without rebuild?


    ProTeam Products, Benchmark and Armson were pioneers in the industry since it could be considered an industry. They partnered with Tom Kaye and Bud Orr (the godfathers of paintball) and PK Selective (the daddy of creative anodizing) to create the original Private Label marker, complete with never-before-seen technological upgrades and modifications that would not hit production markers until literally years later. PTP was offering wild color schemes when markers came in "black" or "gray", before major companies even offered the standard "Red, Blue, Black, Silver" lineup. They were also well ahead of the curve with MilSim upgrades for the Tippmann product line, offering military grade stocks/sites/for-ends years before the big MilSim sites started pushing plastic, almost a decade before Tippmann (and then BT) started offering factory packages.

    Before you tear them a new one, look at what they've done. PTP has a few dozen "wins" on the books, less than a handful of "draws" (products that didn't take off), and only one real "loss"; the Micromag 2009. They have 6 generations of AMAZING Micromags that to this day sell for the same price as a brand new modern mid-range electro. They make mortars and landmines for the US Military now, and sighting systems for all manner of different firearms manufacturers. Paintball has been the last thing on their minds for about 8 years, and when they came back by the DEMAND of a few long time fans to create a marker that they knew they wouldn't make dime one on, they did, and it was not a success. Be that as it may, they still created some of the greatest paintball products ever made and that should be acknowledged.
    Neat. But I still want my MM2K9 to shoot over 250 FPS.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by zondo View Post
    Neat. But I still want my MM2K9 to shoot over 250 FPS.
    wat barrel are you using? is it a under .687?

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by need4reebs View Post
    wat barrel are you using? is it a under .687?
    Under bore through over bore, dialed up 2 known good xvalves until the reg hit the stop. 250 is the max I get to.

  15. #45
    To bad this thread got hijacked. I would love to see a fully pneumatic walk-able production marker. For me that means a pneumatic force feed loader as well. No batteries at all.

  16. #46
    Seems Tippmann would be the closest one with that technology? Cyclone feed, Crossover? Wasn't there a "Turbo" loader or something, too, that had an air line? There's always a mech-ion kit as well but not sure how much those can be tuned to make walkable.

  17. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by zondo View Post
    Under bore through over bore, dialed up 2 known good xvalves until the reg hit the stop. 250 is the max I get to.
    damn...mine always was chrono'd between 270-280 for field limits...280 max

  18. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by need4reebs View Post
    yeah colin fron DW and AGD Rob were working on the Hair...i think...i know they had some Sa WeeT Dallaras with a Hair Trigger

    hair trigger Dallara:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5MalRXBI4s
    is it at all known what the pneus. Looked like in there? Components used? Does anyone know where these frames are these days?

  19. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by sQuidvision View Post
    is it at all known what the pneus. Looked like in there? Components used? Does anyone know where these frames are these days?
    not sure what it looked like and not sure how many were made or where they are these days...just found them thru researching pneumags

    there is a video of a autococker hair trigger that shows some of the internals and it looks like the way a pneumag is built

    it sounds just as fast as this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dV9KfjuO5Vk

    and:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfEow82XO_E

    and:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHORgVbPsVs
    haha enjoy tha song at the end!

    and here is a G-force frame that is on this guys Dallara hair trigger his name looks pretty familiar:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSAdhmRHOYY
    Last edited by need4reebs; 02-14-2013 at 03:20 PM.

  20. #50
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    Dug around and found the thread regarding PTP/DW and the patent stuff. Some of it is interesting. In the end its sad because its just sitting there not getting used. Sucks for us.

    http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...trigger-update

    Wondering if this is why the Cheater ended up going away?

  21. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPBN View Post
    Dug around and found the thread regarding PTP/DW and the patent stuff. Some of it is interesting. In the end its sad because its just sitting there not getting used. Sucks for us.

    http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...trigger-update

    Wondering if this is why the Cheater ended up going away?
    time, money, and life prolly happened

  22. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by need4reebs View Post
    time, money, and life prolly happened
    I just remember someone mentioning legal problems and then when someone else sometime later talked about possibly restarting to make them, they suddenly said they werent going to and it went poof. Just made me wonder. Considering it is a really simply design, makes no sense why someone like Luke, or pretty much anyone hasnt picked this up if there wasnt a reason not to.... like legal action.

  23. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPBN View Post
    I just remember someone mentioning legal problems and then when someone else sometime later talked about possibly restarting to make them, they suddenly said they werent going to and it went poof. Just made me wonder. Considering it is a really simply design, makes no sense why someone like Luke, or pretty much anyone hasnt picked this up if there wasnt a reason not to.... like legal action.
    yeah there were a lot legal issues, but your right a lot of good ideas and/or products just disappeared...so who knows what or why all that happened...its a bummer tho!!

  24. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPBN View Post
    Dug around and found the thread regarding PTP/DW and the patent stuff. Some of it is interesting. In the end its sad because its just sitting there not getting used. Sucks for us.

    http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...trigger-update

    Wondering if this is why the Cheater ended up going away?
    Jesus h Christ that thread is a ****storm! Too bad... That video of the hAir had me pumped!

  25. #55
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    All I can say is "cooperate" in these situations usually does not mean "want to pay your dues", and I have a feeling DW did not want to pay their dues. You also have to consider that BOTH AGD and PTP were bowing out of the industry around '03-'04, generally for the same reason.

    Tippmann paid a large one-time fee to use the Response Trigger kit they sell - this is because it bears incredible similarity to the Boston Paintball Reflex kit that predates it. Kingman pays a percentage for their anti-chop bolt, because it bears resemblance to the Boston Paintball JAM bolt that predates it. When someone invents something and patents it, and you come up with a similar idea later, you need to negotiate and you need to understand that you will be making money with property belonging to someone else. This doesn't make Boston Paintball evil, it just means they're not STUPID and don't want to let someone rob them.

    That thread is all full of "big guy, little guy" talk and I can tell you that if you call PTP any day of the week you will get Forrest or Tracy, the husband and wife team who spent years letting people use their (patented) 2-piece barrel design, their (patented) half block autococker design, their (patented) double trigger 45 frame design. When it came to the big stuff their (patented) unibody Automag design, (patented) Emag design, their (patented) bolt-on feedneck design, or any other number of their patents, they chose to enforce and people producing markers and parts chose to pay the fee or pay the percentage that was owed to the original designer.

    This is the only thing ANYONE should take away from that thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by rabidchihauhau View Post
    you can't assemble an infringing product from non-infringing components without infringing on the patent.

    edweird - have you shot either system? If not, how can you state that one is 'uber' and one is not? (You may have shot the hAir, but I know you haven't shot the pneutrigger.)

    In the real world, PTP INVENTED this system. DW re-invented it. The proof is in the history.

    I'm not 'up in arms' about this thing, but I am personally annoyed about it. Why?

    Here's why.

    PTP has spent YEARS being ripped off by other people. I can't even begin to tell you how much of what every player uses on a daily basis was originally designed and brought to market FIRST by PTP - only to have it copied, ripped off, etc., by other companies.

    During all of that time (15+ years in the industry) the company NEVER took retaliatory measures - they sucked it up and kept moving forward.

    Percentage wise, PTP has offered more support and aid to beginning teams and tournament series than just about anyone I can think of; among other things, it was one of the first, if not the first sponsor on board with institutions like the IAO, NPPL, the Memphis Indoor, Jax Warriors, Team Strange, etc. Often in circumstances where it could ill-afford those expenses, but it went ahead and did it anyway to support the industry and the players.

    PTP puts a LARGE percentage of its effort and dollars into safety - more so than the vast majority; they are in large part responsible for things like the goggle standards, the requirement for a trigger guard on all guns, standardizing the weight of paint and, again, making untold numbers of substantial contributions at their own time and expense.

    Then, after all of the foregoing, PTP had to face the reality that they could not continue to support such efforts without making some changes, one of which was to start investing in intellectual property protection for their concepts and designs.

    That, too, carried with it a tremendous investment in time and dollars; it was done the right way, with the intention of using it to protect PTP's investments and never done to 'do' other people.

    So far, PTP has engaged in numerous IP negotiations with other paintball companies - none of which have been seen by the public, none of which have raised an eyebrow or caused anyone to question PTP's motives - at least one of which contributed greatly to the the 'Automag cause'. (It was PTP's patent that become the E-Mag...)

    This thing, however, has gone way beyond all reason: people with little or no ability to be able to compare two products side-by-side making claims of superiority: people with little or no experience with business trying to tell PTP what to do with ITS dollars, time and resources: people with no knowledge of the history of this thing casting PTP in the role of 'bad guy': people with absolutely no knowledge of intellectual property law making snap judgements about PTP's motives.

    And why? two reasons. DW decided to hype their product (the future of which was not secured even for manufacturing by DW at the time) and a bunch of people decided to make them the 'good guys', for no apparent reason other than they were 'promising' to deliver something that would 'save' the automag. Even if you go back to DW's own postings on the subject, there was NEVER any guarantee of if or when it would be on the market.

    And the second reason? PTP's own reluctance to get on here and tell you all what has really happened behind the scenes. Its not anyone else's business but the parties involved. I can say, however, that PTP has entered into GOOD FAITH negotiations with anyone who was interested in pursuing such things.

    So yeah, I'm pissed off at the way these threads have gone. You all ought to be grateful that I'm not the one that owns the patent; I'm much more cut-throat than the folks at PTP (as in, they aren't cut-throat AT ALL.)

    I'm pissed at the way a company that I worked for for 7+ years is being portrayed, when I know from personal experience (and some degree of frustration) that PTP is anything BUT the kind of company some of you all have described it as, and it galls me on a daily basis to have to sift through the utter idiocy that I read in here. Talk about swallowing things hook, line AND sinker!
    I know PTP hasn't earned the love lately with the MM2k9 situation, but I can't help but point to a decade and a half of supreme innovation that drove the industry to where it is today. Or a decade and a half of commitment to safety in the sport, even when it wasn't profitable. Or a decade and a half of providing a quality product that was consistently a step above the competition.

  26. #56
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    With all that ^^^ said, I still think it sucks that someone holds the patent on something and refuses to bring a product to market. My guess is the fee must be exceedingly high to keep someone from producing it. Guess we'll have to wait another 15 years or so before the patents go away before we can have a nice fully pnuematic marker.

  27. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPBN View Post
    With all that ^^^ said, I still think it sucks that someone holds the patent on something and refuses to bring a product to market. My guess is the fee must be exceedingly high to keep someone from producing it. Guess we'll have to wait another 15 years or so before the patents go away before we can have a nice fully pnuematic marker.
    Not too high for plenty of other companies to pay it on a regular basis; everyone read what the guy from DW said - he felt he didn't have to pay anything, and therefore any fee or percentage would be considered too much. It's not uncommon in any industry, and I can say from experience that ProTeam/Armson/Benchmark are more than fair (and more fair than industry standard).

    I can say this with certainty; the product made it to the point where it was fully tested and ready to go into full production, but then someone at PTP realized it was 2005 (the year of the Ego) and that Automags and Autocockers were effectively a dead market. That's why PTP sells quite a bit of Tippmann MilSim gear, and people occasionally buy old stock of their old OOP product through the website, but their focus is elsewhere and they are not staffed or geared towards the production of paintball products. They were (in my eyes undisputably) the KINGS of Autocockers and Automags from 1991-???? and clearly one of if not the longest running custom shops, but their flagship marker designs finally died out and the sport moved in a new direction.

  28. #58
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    I must have missed the part where Nicad said he didnt feel he needed to pay anything. I breezed through the thread because most of it was filled with butthurt and idiocy. From the posts of his I remember, it seemed like he was willing to work with PTP to resolve the issue. Maybe I misread.

    Wonder if GOG is paying royalties for the EnMy?

    * Edit. Just to be clear, I am not bashing PTP in any way. I love my MM2K9 and the other MicroMags I have had along the way. Simply would like to see a nicely made fully pneumatic marker made.

  29. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPBN View Post
    I must have missed the part where Nicad said he didnt feel he needed to pay anything. I breezed through the thread because most of it was filled with butthurt and idiocy. From the posts of his I remember, it seemed like he was willing to work with PTP to resolve the issue. Maybe I misread.

    Wonder if GOG is paying royalties for the EnMy?

    * Edit. Just to be clear, I am not bashing PTP in any way. I love my MM2K9 and the other MicroMags I have had along the way. Simply would like to see a nicely made fully pneumatic marker made.
    Hey man, it was a **** to get my MM2K9 working. Longest it ever took me to tune a Level 10, had to make my own on/off pin, adjust the emag frame in ways I never thought I had to, etc. I'm not trying to defend every move they've made, just the majority of them. I'm also not guessing you're bashing because it seems like you've owned some ProTeam swag over the years too.

    If you look at some of Nicads posts (and I agree they are burried under stupidity), he says things like "well, so-and-so didn't have to pay royalties when he made the Nova, and this marker was pneumatically triggered too, and...". I don't doubt he wanted to work with ProTeam, but his idea of "working with them" clearly didn't meet Forrests expectations as the holder of the IP. PTP offered to sit down with anybody interested; at least two other companies felt it was a fair deal.

  30. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frizzle Fry View Post
    at least two other companies felt it was a fair deal.
    ?

    Funny I hear of so many issues with the MM2K9. Only issue I had was the first body I got had an ano flaw. I sent it back and had a replacement in a couple of weeks. Put the thing together and it ripped from the word "go". I still think something happened along the way. Seems like there are perfect ones and some with issues. With all the time it took I would venture a guess that something changed along the way to cause the issues.

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