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Thread: Fully pneumatic production marker?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPBN View Post
    ?

    Funny I hear of so many issues with the MM2K9. Only issue I had was the first body I got had an ano flaw. I sent it back and had a replacement in a couple of weeks. Put the thing together and it ripped from the word "go". I still think something happened along the way. Seems like there are perfect ones and some with issues. With all the time it took I would venture a guess that something changed along the way to cause the issues.
    I heard of a lot of issues too, but mine were just the usual "frankenmag" problems but a little more frustrating. I set up my body for giggles in a mechanical setup when I first got it (without the stainless washer) and it ripped, granted I never tuned the bolt or chrono'ed. Then I threw an emag frame on there and the washer in all hell broke loose; I had to modify an on/off pin after trying all the sizes, I had to use a custom length spring cut down by hand, and finally it took me forever to get the frame to work both electronically and mechanically.

    Not "manufacturing defects" in my eyes, just "frankenmag" issues. When you've got parts from all different sources there will be tolerance variances. I've seen (rarely) those mags made out of a parts box that just won't shoot.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Frizzle Fry View Post
    The same PTP who has been in the paintball business for almost 25 years?

    The same PTP who invented the HalfBlock Autococker?

    The same PTP who released the first 45 frame for Automags and Autocockers?

    The same PTP who invented the UniBody Automag?

    The same PTP who released the first Autococker-Threaded Automag body?

    The same PTP who designed a mechanically walkable frame that could swap between Autocockers AND Automags?

    The same PTP who designed the first VM68 body that could be field-stripped without tools and supported a vertical bottle?

    The same PTP who teamed up with Tom Kaye and FN Herstal to design the FN-303, the ultimate less-lethal weapon?

    The same PTP who designed an integrated detente system during an era when many went without, one that lasts 15+ years without rebuild?
    Would it be weird to say that I've managed to survive all this time without owning any of these products (unless you want to credit them for the fact that ULE bodies have cocker threading)?

    You bring all this up to try to highlight their ... relevance, but is it possible that you highlighted the exact opposite?


    (I take that back. I picked up a Micromag once off Craigslist which I immediately sold off.)
    "Accuracy by aiming."


    Definitely not on the A-Team.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoatBoy View Post
    You bring all this up to try to highlight their ... relevance, but is it possible that you highlighted the exact opposite?
    I'm not even sure how to respond to that... it's pretty clear you don't understand what I'm saying.

    They made the first 45 frame for Autocockers and Automags, and were followed by innumerable "big" heavy hitter companies (off the top of my head Shocktech, ANS, TASO, CCM, P&P, Sanchez, DYE, Belsales, KAPP... there are more I'm sure). They did this before even WGP offered it, and it became an industry standard for almost a decade.

    They installed detentes on their Autocockers before WGP offered them, and when other custom shops and private labels were offering a bent paper clip to keep from double feeding, they had already designed a system that was durable and didn't ever shred paint or require a replacement. On their Automags they did the same, as AGD was still offering wire detentes at the time.

    When the only markers with AC barrel threads were Autocockers, they offered Automags with AC threads which it took AGD years to catch up with. It has since become an undeniable industry standard; literally every mid range and high end marker is Autococker threaded and that has been the case for at least ten years.

    When everyone was chopping their Autococker and Automag frame to add a double trigger, they made a frame with an integrated double trigger guard. Rather than have an unsafe guardless frame, or bolt on a hideous hunk of metal, you had a solid frame intended for use with a double trigger.

    The pinnacle of Automag technology, everyones white whale and the most beloved AGD product, the Xmag, is a descendent of the Micromag. The Emag frame was designed with PTPs help too. Tom Kaye and Bud Orr (the godfathers of paintball) worked closely with Forrest and the rest at PTP during the formative years of paintball, and right up to the decline of both WGP and AGD.

    They were trendsetters who were ahead of their time in almost everything they did with their production markers, and their innovations with Automags and Autocockers (the two marker platforms that overwhelmingly dominated the industry for a decade). They offered features that nobody else did, with the production quality of a high end marker rather than a hack job or garage customization. Their own private label markers were very popular, and many classic private label guns from Pro Shops and Airsmiths were customized using PTP and Benchmark parts. It was rare to visit a Pro Shop that wasn't selling their upgrades right up into the early 2000s.

    If you haven't owned a single Armson, Benchmark, or ProTeam Products marker or component, you probably haven't owned many markers (at least not Automags or Autocockers). Even then, chances are that every marker you've owned has at least three features that they pioneered in production markers.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Frizzle Fry View Post
    I'm not even sure how to respond to that... it's pretty clear you don't understand what I'm saying.
    Maybe I really don't understand what you're saying.


    Quote Originally Posted by Frizzle Fry View Post
    They made the first 45 frame for Autocockers and Automags, and were followed by innumerable "big" heavy hitter companies (off the top of my head Shocktech, ANS, TASO, CCM, P&P, Sanchez, DYE, Belsales, KAPP... there are more I'm sure). They did this before even WGP offered it, and it became an industry standard for almost a decade.
    Never owned* any of their frames (see earlier caveat). I'll take your word for it that they did the first 45 frame for Autocockers and Automags, but "45" comes from real firearms. So they took an existing gun frame pattern and used it on a different kind of gun... The prior standard to that was, what, the Lonestar grip, which again came from another firearm?

    The Y and Z grips were innovations.


    Quote Originally Posted by Frizzle Fry View Post
    They installed detentes on their Autocockers before WGP offered them, and when other custom shops and private labels were offering a bent paper clip to keep from double feeding, they had already designed a system that was durable and didn't ever shred paint or require a replacement. On their Automags they did the same, as AGD was still offering wire detentes at the time.
    But detentes weren't a new feature. They were already available, and already being produced, and already a standard part of other guns.

    Don't own any detentes which resemble the PTP detentes. Do the ULE/Angel detentes count? It really doesn't seem that anyone followed suit with their detente style. I guess I can agree with some amount of innovation for their detente design...


    Quote Originally Posted by Frizzle Fry View Post
    When the only markers with AC barrel threads were Autocockers, they offered Automags with AC threads which it took AGD years to catch up with. It has since become an undeniable industry standard; literally every mid range and high end marker is Autococker threaded and that has been the case for at least ten years.
    True, I do use cocker threaded barrels. Can't quite point to PTP as the cause for cocker threads becoming dominant though unless there's something more concrete. Again, this is kind of like taking a gun frame and putting it on another gun... they took a paintball barrel and put it it on another paintball gun. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that they didn't just up an invent a completely new thread (although they did have that episode with the non-removable barrel micromags...)

    The twist-lock barrel was an innovation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Frizzle Fry View Post
    When everyone was chopping their Autococker and Automag frame to add a double trigger, they made a frame with an integrated double trigger guard. Rather than have an unsafe guardless frame, or bolt on a hideous hunk of metal, you had a solid frame intended for use with a double trigger.
    Never really owned* one of their frames. It's hard for me to understand the innovation that comes from making something people were already making anyways. If it were the Chinese doing this, we wouldn't be pointing it out as something historic, we'd be calling it "copying".

    Innovation would have been something like a single frame which allows both single and double triggers + guards (see BT/Tippmann).


    Quote Originally Posted by Frizzle Fry View Post
    The pinnacle of Automag technology, everyones white whale and the most beloved AGD product, the Xmag, is a descendent of the Micromag. The Emag frame was designed with PTPs help too. Tom Kaye and Bud Orr (the godfathers of paintball) worked closely with Forrest and the rest at PTP during the formative years of paintball, and right up to the decline of both WGP and AGD.
    Never really liked the X-mag or the E-mag. Never owned either. Without details of what exactly went on with these "working sessions" it really is hard for me to understand just what they did, exactly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Frizzle Fry View Post
    They were trendsetters who were ahead of their time in almost everything they did with their production markers, and their innovations with Automags and Autocockers (the two marker platforms that overwhelmingly dominated the industry for a decade). They offered features that nobody else did, with the production quality of a high end marker rather than a hack job or garage customization. Their own private label markers were very popular, and many classic private label guns from Pro Shops and Airsmiths were customized using PTP and Benchmark parts. It was rare to visit a Pro Shop that wasn't selling their upgrades right up into the early 2000s.
    I'm trying to understand what the applicable 'innovations' are. Cocker threads and Angel detentes? X/E mags whose inceptions lagged well behind the advent of other electros? Wobbly Benchmark trigger frame quality?


    Quote Originally Posted by Frizzle Fry View Post
    If you haven't owned a single Armson, Benchmark, or ProTeam Products marker or component, you probably haven't owned many markers (at least not Automags or Autocockers). Even then, chances are that every marker you've owned has at least three features that they pioneered in production markers.
    I guess you're right; in my opinion I've owned too many markers, but compared to the habits of other people, I have gone through very few.

    Do you have a better list of stuff they pioneered? Because the list so far isn't really... convincing.


    But still, I can only look over my equipment, past and present, and not see the stamp of Armson/Benchmark/PTP (other than incidental CL stuff that I just got rid of anyways).

  5. #65
    I think one of the issues is the definitions being used for innovation they were the first to "apply" the .45 frame to paintball but they were the first to use it in paintball,they didnt invent it but they "innovated" its use in it

  6. #66
    They did invent the Lvl. 7 spacer kit. A godsend to the automag back then.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by brokeass_baller View Post
    They did invent the Lvl. 7 spacer kit. A godsend to the automag back then.
    No joke. I've actually got one of the old spring setups still in my parts box.

    Anyone that can't see PTP as a trend setter and pioneer in paintball apparently was not around in the 90s at all. And in any business you need to patent everything for chance of profiting from your work. And stopping others from steeling it.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPBN View Post
    Seems like there would be a niche market for such a thing. And not something retrofitted, but an actual marker designed from the ground up.

    Thoughts?
    I put a feeler out with the powers that be to see about striking some kind of a deal so I can make "something".
    I haven't started any designs or anything, just waiting to see if we can work something out.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoatBoy View Post
    ever owned* any of their frames (see earlier caveat). I'll take your word for it that they did the first 45 frame for Autocockers and Automags, but "45" comes from real firearms. So they took an existing gun frame pattern and used it on a different kind of gun... The prior standard to that was, what, the Lonestar grip, which again came from another firearm?

    The Y and Z grips were innovations.

    Never really owned* one of their frames. It's hard for me to understand the innovation that comes from making something people were already making anyways. If it were the Chinese doing this, we wouldn't be pointing it out as something historic, we'd be calling it "copying".

    Innovation would have been something like a single frame which allows both single and double triggers + guards (see BT/Tippmann).
    Ok, Lonestar grips were briefly popular, then Euroframes for a while, but 45s are what stuck and have been the industry standard for the bulk of paintballs existence as a sport. The use of a 45 frame on an autococker allowed for a wider variety of grips to be used, providing a wider variety of ergonomic customization - the first company to do that was Benchmark, followed by... literally everybody.

    That's trendsetting; that's changing the face of the sport.

    Technically compressed air was used for nail guns before paintball markers... Does that make AGD and AAs combined effort to bring compressed air technology to the sport "copying"? Does that negate the impact that the Armaggedon had on the industry?


    Quote Originally Posted by GoatBoy View Post
    But detentes weren't a new feature. They were already available, and already being produced, and already a standard part of other guns.
    Two guns, actually, the Tippmann 68 Special (all that "detente" did was push your paint into the clearing hole in the breech so it would chop) and the Automag which used wire detents (which had the potential to be a nightmare, hence their replacement with nubbins). I know, I was shooting both of them at the time - it wasn't until a few years later that finger detents started showing up (IIRC it was with the 2nd Gen F1 and the VM68)

    Autocockers and Snipers were not shipped with detents, and ball detents were still a ways away. Your choices were to pay someone to modify your marker for the flawed and significantly less effective wired detentes or to put nail polish drops in the barrel and hope. Automags had an inferior detent system (sorry Tom) that was prone to issues a marker shouldn't have (i.e. rust, or sharp things in your breech).

    There were plenty of DIY garage jobs, and pro shop modifications, but the reason everyone at my field (myself included) ordered from PTP is they were the only company offering a full production marker with a quality factory detente (one made from self lubricating plastic and a spring, not a paper clip). Yes you could get a made-to-order marker from an Airsmith with a wire detent for twice the cost, but again this was a production marker with a production marker price tag that anyone could but from the catalog.



    Quote Originally Posted by GoatBoy View Post
    Never really liked the X-mag or the E-mag. Never owned either. Without details of what exactly went on with these "working sessions" it really is hard for me to understand just what they did, exactly.
    The partnered with AGD on the design of the Emag frame and warp feed. They created the unibody automag and made the first threaded (non drop-in) sear pin. They designed the the LVL7 bolt. They built the original FN303 concept, and worked with Tom and FN Herstal to create the final product.


    Quote Originally Posted by GoatBoy View Post
    But still, I can only look over my equipment, past and present, and not see the stamp of Armson/Benchmark/PTP (other than incidental CL stuff that I just got rid of anyways).
    Again, not owning an Emag (PTP helped design the frame) or an Xmag (PTP created the Autococker unibody) is a choice YOU made, but I highly doubt that the AO community as a whole would discount them or their place in AGD history. They may have been late to the electro game, but they have a much stronger following and much higher value now than any of their predecessors or competitors.


    Quote Originally Posted by GoatBoy View Post
    Do you have a better list of stuff they pioneered? Because the list so far isn't really... convincing.
    Buddy, your idea of innovations are things that never took off and never will.... The twistlock barrel is dead and has been for years, the Z-frame was dead before it went full production, the Y-frame was only very briefly produced (both from AGD and ICD), and the convertible trigger guard is only found on low-end markers because the three of the four companies that did it with high-end markers went out of business (Hybrid, WDP, System X) and the fourth one stopped doing it years ago (Bob Long).

    Meanwhile people use spring loaded delrin detentes every day and every production marker comes with some kind of double feed system, almost every autococker in the last decade and a half came with a 45 frame as a standard, every kid on PBN wants to "half block" their autococker, and the demand for pneumatic automag frames (granted it's a niche market) is through the roof. A used Xmag commands a $1000+ price tag, an Emag a $500+ price tag, both have been out of production for literally a decade. Ten to twenty year old Micromags sell for a minimum of $200 if and when they come on the market, and that's for the plain jane models with plenty of miles on them - many sell for as much as $650.

    Here's a list...

    -Halfblock Autococker Design
    -Removable Feedneck
    -Pneumatic Trigger Frame
    -45 Style Gripframe ("for Automag and Autococker Applications")
    -Unibody Automag Design
    -Level 7 Automag bolt
    -Rifled Barrel (for paintball applications)
    -Emag Frame Design (the first hybrid electronic/mechanical marker)
    -Offset & Adjustable Regulator Cradle (designed for the AA Armaggedon reg at launch)

    Quote Originally Posted by blackdeath1k View Post
    Anyone that can't see PTP as a trend setter and pioneer in paintball apparently was not around in the 90s at all. And in any business you need to patent everything for chance of profiting from your work. And stopping others from steeling it.
    That's what I was driving at... At the time, their stuff was a godsend, and the effects were felt throughout the sport and can even be seen today in lowend/midrange mechanical markers as well as midrange electros (specifically the Tippmann Crossover, Tippmann Phenom, Proto SLG, etc). In the last decade, it's really hard to see their effect on the sport because by 2002 they were dealing with "dead" or dying platforms (the Autococker and Automag) and the sport took a sharp turn around that time... By 2004 they were barely engaged in the sport, who knows what they might have come up with if they'd been in 100% instead of 5%? But I'm starting to sound like that crusty old curmudgeon now, so I'll shut up. Sorry for being a dick.

  10. #70
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    not a dick. a player from years past.

    You don't come off as a dick to me. You come off as someone that was more or less an adult in the EARLY 90s. And was big in the game and equipment. I started playing in 94. But. I was in 6th grade. So when you point a lot of that out. I think back and.... yah! That really is how it was. The 96 autococker was a revelation in new products at the time. Still did not come with a 45. And had the big heavy square cocking block. That was the first mods most did to it though. A benchmark is what my brother in law used for a frame. And a ptp cocking block. It was also the first year a cocker came with a factory screw in ball detent. It worked well for what it was. And I do believe ptp had a lot to do with that. Magazines back then were covered with ptp innovations. Or ptp copied work.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    I put a feeler out with the powers that be to see about striking some kind of a deal so I can make "something".
    I haven't started any designs or anything, just waiting to see if we can work something out.
    Great, I hope you get the OK. I know AO would love to see this get done by a name they trust.

  12. #72
    Basically, you're attempting to flood the issue with a lot of fairly minor achievements, maybe the strongest of which was the detente -- the design for which was interesting but not exactly widely in use today, which I guess is a legitimate counter-argument since you used it against things that I would consider innovative. So their claim here was that they made them production-available... Which is something of a lesser claim.

    Most of the rest of the stuff is about "bringing stuff to production" etc., or is of questionable technical merit unto itself. I didn't know about the L7 bolt, but I'm not sure where it belongs in the hierarchy either.

    Bounding the list on the other end, the worst has got to be the rifled barrel. And again, this is why I'm saying you might actually be doing the opposite of what you're trying to do if you bring the rifled barrel up.

    I very well remember seeing Pro-team products in stores and catalogs, etc.

    I just never bought into it. Some stuff I acquired incidentally from my Craigslist habit, and if I can't sell it to the next sucker, I just put it in a box and keep it as a tragicomic reminder of just how bad the bad old days used to be. Kind of like this aftermarket Venom bolt that I recently liberated from a friend because it amuses me. Plus I heard it has titanium in it, so it must be worth something.

    Just because something became a trend doesn't mean it was a good trend. If the bar is lowered so far that we're just happy with anything that the manufacturers throw at us, then I completely acknowledge your points. The sheer volume of minor notables that Pro-team tried to sell us is indeed impressive, and you have clearly demonstrated this.

  13. #73
    Is there any way this argument of the merits of PTP can be exorcised into its own thread?

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