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Thread: Zap Cheater Interest Thread

  1. #1
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    Zap Cheater Interest Thread

    I managed to get the CAD files and an interested machinist. Original thread and where it's going to have the interest list is on MCB.

    If you don't have a mcb account either make one, or if you're banned for some odd reason, I'll add you manually from here.


    This is the link to the original thread.

  2. #2
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    i do have interest but id rather have the CAD file, lol

    do you have a ballpark price yet? (I know thats asking alot)

    To leave feedback: Click seller/buyers name, Click feedback score, Click leave feedback

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by BTAutoMag View Post
    i do have interest but id rather have the CAD file, lol

    do you have a ballpark price yet? (I know thats asking alot)
    i can make you one.
    i have all the reference pics
    Last edited by knownothingmags; 02-28-2013 at 11:28 PM.
    My sydarm weighs less than yours!!!

  4. #4
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    Too many of us are machinists lol.

  5. #5
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    What do these things look like?

  6. #6
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    If there's enough interest to get them to their $100 price, I'd take two.

  7. #7
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    Have you talked to Forrest Hatcher yet?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtPB View Post
    If there's enough interest to get them to their $100 price, I'd take two.
    i second this notion.

  9. #9
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    Who exactly is Forrest Hatcher?

  10. #10
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    The man that owns the patent on the part you intend on making.

  11. #11
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    Thanks Luke, anyone have his contact info? I was checking patents but all I came across was the one by Colin Moritz and it didn't apply to this design. Is this the guy who designed the original zap cheater or someone who just owns a patent on a pneumatic trigger system?

  12. #12
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    Found the patent, US7231911

    Great more legal bull****, time to start making phone calls.

  13. #13
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    legal stuff is easy to get around. if we sell a replacement block as one item and a "rebuild kit" as another theres really nothing that he can do. espesially if you have to source your own o-rings

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tek2974 View Post
    Thanks Luke, anyone have his contact info?
    I contacted them last week to see if I could set up licencing myself. I spoke to Tracy, just waiting to hear back from Forrest.

    I was checking patents but all I came across was the one by Colin Moritz and it didn't apply to this design.
    Why you think his patent is not valid for what you want to build?. I'm no patent lawyer, but PTP found his design infringement on theirs so they must know something you don't.

    Do you have a link to Colin's patent?

    G-Force also claimed he had one but I never saw it.

  15. #15
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by knownothingmags View Post
    i can make you one.
    i have all the reference pics
    I'd be interested on seeing that cad file as well.

  16. #16
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    I'm on my phone now so I don't have the links to the patents but Colin's explicitly says that it must assist trigger return. The cheater doesn't have that at all. If someone could pm me Forrest's contact info it would be greatly appreciated.

  17. #17
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    I found it, thanks.

    As far as the DW's design not being an assist, it can't be judged just on the name, you really need to read the patent to see what it covers.

    In my mind, if you add any pneumatic system to a mechanical trigger, it is an assist.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tek2974 View Post
    I'm on my phone now so I don't have the links to the patents but Colin's explicitly says that it must assist trigger return. The cheater doesn't have that at all. If someone could pm me Forrest's contact info it would be greatly appreciated.
    I have not seen the hAir setup internally by Colin, so I can not comment as such with accurate knowledge.

    I do however have a few years time in studying the PTP version of this application.

    I can tell you for CERTAIN that the prior art covers both direct mounted and non-direct mounted trigger assist systems

    Explained:

    "Direct mounted" - the ram has a linkage of some kind that connects to the AGD OEM sear via the sear arm's hole where the clevis would normally do. This is NOT restricted to the "hole". It covers use of the direct connection of an actuator (ram) to act upon the sear/valve.

    "Non-direct mounted" - the ram has no linkage of any kind that connects to the AGD OEM sear/valve. Meaning,.. no direct mechanical connection during the initial phase/state of the action performed by the assisting force (the ram to the sear are separate parts until you drive them mechanically; they make a mechanical connection after that initial phase/state)

    Forrest's prior art also covers the use of the assembly in multiple pieces to perform the same action.

    I high lighted your original quote because I was curious if you INTENDED on typing it the way you did,.. it was a mistake,.. or thats a part of Colin's patent that I have not seen yet.

    Trigger RETURN is a whole slew of other patents. At that point your talking about using a PTP patent and a Boston Paintball Patent (BPS) patent. The BPS patent is a lot more "loose" and has a lot of wiggle room if that type of thing interests you...... Other than myself, there is one other person on this forum I know who can speak about the BPS patents with accurate knowledge of how it works with other parties involved (Tippmann)

    You best bet with PTP: "I am interested in using your application in a low volume (sub 100 units), low cost, production so that I can produce a similar product that will spark the interest of a small venue of people still using mechanical markers that do not wish to apply electronics to their markers. What can I do on my end to secure permission from you to proceed?"

    Make you statement just as clear as your intention. If you are serious, be prepared to offer them a NDA to give them a "good feeling" that you are in fact, doing what your saying you will be making.

    Its business,... treat it as such and Im sure you will be okay.

    Edit: If you hit a wall,.. try to "re think" how the patent could be written in the same application. That usually is the way you get your own products made with the same concepts using the same IP but legally not copying someones patented ideas.
    Example: Planet Eclipse has a patent on using an optical break beam sensor as a "switch" in place of a actual micro switch on a circuit board in any paintball marker. WDP out right copied this idea and used it for years on their OEM boards without paying a cent to PE. The reason: they added a single piece of metal between the optical switch and the trigger. PE's patent spells out that you can not use an optical trigger to actuate a circuit with a trigger. WDP added the piece of metal (the leaf arm) so they could say "use a optical switch to actuate a circuit by means of an assembly acted upon by a trigger"
    Last edited by p8ntbal4me; 03-01-2013 at 01:43 PM.
    _______________________
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  19. #19
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    Your best bet with PTP: "I am interested in using your application in a low volume (sub 100 units), low cost, production so that I can produce a similar product that will spark the interest of a small venue of people still using mechanical markers that do not wish to apply electronics to their markers. What can I do on my end to secure permission from you to proceed?"
    Fairly close to what I said.

    Thanks for the info, its nice to see that someone actually studied the patents.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    Thanks for the info, its nice to see that someone actually studied the patents.
    It was cheaper than making things and not being able to sell them,..... been on that wagon once 8 years ago.

  21. #21
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    I wonder what the reason for squatting on the patent is. I can think of a few, but they are all rather unfortunate. They bothered to produce and sell the 2009 Micro-Mag which was just a redo of there existing Automag based marker. The demand for a purely pneumatic marker equipped with the hAir trigger has to be just as big if not bigger.

    The opportunity to market it is there as well:
    -"Batteries not Included"
    -"Batteries are for [insert derogatory term or feminine product requiring batteries here]"

    I could go on.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgop2.0 View Post
    I wonder what the reason for squatting on the patent is. I can think of a few, but they are all rather unfortunate.
    Pretty sure you have it correct right here.

  23. #23
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    y not call Forrest? they make parts all day and im sure if there is intrest or u give him a cut he would do it, he was always willing to make me parts in the past... that way some joe blow makes it and messes it up. For me i would want Luke or XMT to make it or forrest they have all the knowledge.... but i like the idea so im interested

  24. #24
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    Well if this guy can't/won't do it, I'm going to send the stuff to luke if he's interested. This isn't some joe blow machinist however. Everyone know's who this guy is.

  25. #25
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    I wont make any parts until I work something out with Forrest first. I'm not sure if I want to design something myself or make the cheater...

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tek2974 View Post
    Well if this guy can't/won't do it, I'm going to send the stuff to luke if he's interested. This isn't some joe blow machinist however. Everyone know's who this guy is.
    I dont c y he wouldnt. and not stepping on your guys toes just saying any old machinist is good enough imop I think with forrest he has a set up tooling fee then material but this is a lot of years ago. PTP has made some sweet stuff

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgop2.0 View Post
    I wonder what the reason for squatting on the patent is. I can think of a few, but they are all rather unfortunate. They bothered to produce and sell the 2009 Micro-Mag which was just a redo of there existing Automag based marker. The demand for a purely pneumatic marker equipped with the hAir trigger has to be just as big if not bigger.

    The opportunity to market it is there as well:
    -"Batteries not Included"
    -"Batteries are for [insert derogatory term or feminine product requiring batteries here]"

    I could go on.
    They're not sitting on it per se, they've licensed the technology before to other people but for whatever reason negotiations broke down or were a nonstarter with DW. The information about what happened between them was shaky at best in 2004. Forrest didn't say anything at, and the guy from DW complained a lot publicly without sharing what actually happened, but made it seem as if he didn't feel he should pay anything at all which could have severely hindered negotiations. Looking back on the few threads about it there are more holes than there is information, so it's not really worth speculation anymore.

    They are very nice and very reasonable people to work with, and believe me everyone wants to put a few extra bucks in their pocket these days, and the less work involved, the better. Give them a call, or send them an email with very specific information about what you want to do.

    Partner with LUKE for. He's already been in contact with them and of all the people on AO offering parts and service he clearly has the best reputation for product quality, support, and timely delivery of products. Even if he makes his own frame maybe you could pay to have the Cheaters made?

  28. #28
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    I've heard nothing but good things about PTP. I've owned a few of their products. I did not me to infer any nefarious intent by speculating on why they might not be moving on this patent. I fully understand them, or anyone else, trying to make money on their IP. Nor do I endorse anyone trying to skate around the patent. This was done to me by a major arcade manufacturer. They signed a non-disclosure then artfully dodged my IP by applying an older technology to achieve an inferior version of the same concept.

    While I'm very interested in seeing this get done, I'm not sure what I would add. I'm an artist and software guy who owns a bowling ally. Besides the fewer hands in the pot the lower the cost to consumer. The way I see this working best is AGD (platform) / PTP (hAir) / Luke (design and machining). That partnership could bring a fully pneumatic, built to purpose, electro-killer to market.

    I'd gladly help to market it (all 3 parties could use a website overhaul).

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgop2.0 View Post
    This was done to me by a major arcade manufacturer.
    You got a fun job like me?

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frizzle Fry View Post
    You got a fun job like me?
    I've got lots of hats. I make my living as the owner of an Candlepin Bowling Center. As a hobby I've developed a few redemption arcade games (the kind that give tickets). Sometimes I'm a graphic designer, sometimes I'm a web developer. So I guess the answer is yes, all my jobs are fun.

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