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Thread: Some People Never Learn

  1. #1
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    Thumbs down Some People Never Learn

    http://customcockers.com/forum/showt...-Pump-Body-Kit

    Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.


    (page 14)

    Last edited by going_home; 03-07-2013 at 08:33 PM.

  2. #2
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    I feel sorry for both parties on this, but I feel the need to put some responsibility on rrfireblade, I feel like this is one of those things you'd look for when prototyping- he seems to have lost his edge.

    I love my PTP cocker and would have loved to have another, but I figured I couldn't go without that kind of money for two years with minimal results again *wince*

  3. #3
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    Wow... Better wait and buy at half price after its delivered. I am almost asking if it comes with a t-shirt as well...

    EDIT: I just saw the results. What's wrong with Tracy!?!? Didn't she have enough with us? And now they do it again?? What a shame...

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpsd View Post
    I am almost asking if it comes with a t-shirt as well...
    I think we should just be happy with our bonus stickers and call it a day

    *edit*
    I found our shirts
    Last edited by Drix; 03-07-2013 at 08:52 PM.

  5. #5
    Wait, what's going on? More crap work from PTP?

    Such a freaking shame. Their work used to be that of legends.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drix View Post
    but I feel the need to put some responsibility on rrfireblade,
    All blame should be put on PTP for using him again. Why they did is beyond me. He f'ed up the 2k??? Mag bodies. Doesn't surprise me one bit he screwed this up too.


    Another excellent product PTP. OutFreakingStanding!!!

  7. #7
    Yikes.... what a mess! Luckily they will replace all the bodies.

    Btw, I have always been under the assumption that Proteam Products were never up to AGD specs. There is always something "different" about them. Check out this thread to see what people were doing in 2001 about their Micromags/eMicro's. Check out RobAGD and BlackVCG comments about it.
    http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...-with-Pro-Team

    You are right, some people never learn....

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunny View Post
    Yikes.... what a mess! Luckily they will replace all the bodies.

    Btw, I have always been under the assumption that Proteam Products were never up to AGD specs. There is always something "different" about them. Check out this thread to see what people were doing in 2001 about their Micromags/eMicro's. Check out RobAGD and BlackVCG comments about it.
    http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...-with-Pro-Team

    You are right, some people never learn....
    I have never had a problem with anything other than the 2009 Micromag (and obviously the 2013 Autococker) and I have owned over 100 markers over the years, purchased both new and used.

    It's funny that you mention "AGD specs" being that the Emag frame was a joint effort between AGD and PTP, and that the "AGD spec" for unibody markers by AGD Europe was inherently tied to the PTP design. That thread was from 2001; the Emag frame only came into being in late 2000 - troubleshooting and field testing is a process that almost never ends before a product is released.

    You have there two examples of markers where the tolerances were off, and there are thousands of examples of their markers between 1992 and 2004 that worked fine. There are enough variances with any production marker that there will be bad units that make it past QC without being caught... And it seems like they tried their hardest to fix it, and made it right in the long run.

    In the last few years, I can remember...

    Angel A1 - Bolt snaps, launches out barrel (RECALLED)

    Tippmann A5 - Back cap snaps, launches hammer (RECALLED)

    Bob Long Vice - Bits of metal lodged in walls of lower tube (REPLACED)

    Azodin KAOS - Bolt snaps, launches out back (NOT FIXED, NOT ACKNOWLEDGED)

    BT SA-17 - Launches 12g cartridges in shooters face (RECALLED)

    Vanguard Creed - Where do I start? (NOT FIXED, OPEN-ENDED DISCLAIMER ADDED)

    Dangerous Power "anything" - Where do I start? (NOT FIXED, NOT ACKNOWLEDGED)

    Machine Vapor - Where do I start? (NOT FIXED, OUT OF BUSINESS)

  9. #9
    Frizzle Fry: The most interesting part of that thread wasn't the two examples, it was the fact that RobAGD and BlackVCG (AGD Techs from early 2000s) had so many issues with Micromags that they didn't even want to bother with them anymore. I could only imagine how many mags they worked on back in the day....

    I'm not trying to troll PTP by any means; I actually really like a lot of their products. It just frustrates me that there are so many people willing to pre-order parts only to have them come out with crappy tolerances or not come out at all... The "people" who never learn are the customers, not the manufacture.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drix View Post
    I think we should just be happy with our bonus stickers and call it a day

    *edit*
    I found our shirts
    What bonus sticker? I didn't get any! LOL

    By the way, let me clarify something. I have several Micromags. Gen 1 (short fixed barrel), Gen 3, 2000 and a 2K9. I honestly never had a problem with any of them (even though I didn't really use the 2K9 but the valve fit all right). I also have several other accessories from them, be it barrels, trigger frames, expansion chambers etc. What bothers me so much is how they screwed up their own name. I don't think anyone should be blamed other than themselves, especially Tracy, who had such a childish reaction when people started complaining about the products they didn't receive for a couple years and, afterwards, how she never returned anyone's money for the problem they caused. Because of that, I will never buy anything new from them again. Not only it's not worth the price they charge, they also don't deserve my business any more. And that's my opinion, only.


  11. #11
    Seems like both a misdesign AND a manufacturing issue.

    It's awesome that they used rails to attach the feed tube thingy. Picatinny would have been nicer, but whatevs.

    They should have attached the feed neck via the exact same mechanism (and that's where the extra beefy Picatinny would be useful). The part could be threaded again, although really the whole idea of (threaded-)feednecks-as-structural-component just needs to go away. Maybe someone will figure it out in the next 30 years. Or not.

    See also: SA-17, Empire Trracer, TM-7, TM-15, etc.

    Bad design right in that area, and worse execution.


    Missteps will happen; it's the response that counts. So now we get to see how PTP responds. Again. As if we needed another example.
    "Accuracy by aiming."


    Definitely not on the A-Team.

  12. #12
    You guys are seriously making me worry about whether or not my completely untouched, unassembled MM 2k9 is going to work or not.... I should put some parts on it just to check it out...

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by RehKal View Post
    You guys are seriously making me worry about whether or not my completely untouched, unassembled MM 2k9 is going to work or not.... I should put some parts on it just to check it out...
    Lol. Check it before you get too far into the project. Idk how many actually had problems, I got lost in that mammoth thread. The first thing is making sure the valve and bolt will fit in the body. Another was to make sure the bolt spring has enough space to move. IIRC, they opted for the 7000 series aluminum to preclude the need for a body washer (for the bolt spring to push against). Keeping that wall thickness seems to have tripped them up at least a few times.

  14. #14
    And here I was thinking I was lucky to get in on the original sale of them. I was able to take someones place who had to give up their slot. The MM 2k9 has been in storage ever since due to my work related travelling... suppose I could stick my pneu frame and valve on there for testing...

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Bunny View Post
    Yikes.... what a mess! Luckily they will replace all the bodies.

    Btw, I have always been under the assumption that Proteam Products were never up to AGD specs. There is always something "different" about them. Check out this thread to see what people were doing in 2001 about their Micromags/eMicro's. Check out RobAGD and BlackVCG comments about it.
    http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...-with-Pro-Team

    You are right, some people never learn....
    I just want to nip this in the butt. The thread you linked to is about the MicroEmag and BlackVCG provided 1 example of an Micro RT valve that needed a different length pin.

    I currently own 14 Micromags and have owned/ worked on countless more. The classic Micromags DO NOT HAVE TOLERANCE ISSUES. You can take any working AGD classic valve, drop it into any working classic PTP Micromag and have a working marker.

    With that said, it's very sad to see the 2k9 and 2k13 projects going so awfully.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-TW View Post
    Lol. Check it before you get too far into the project. Idk how many actually had problems, I got lost in that mammoth thread. The first thing is making sure the valve and bolt will fit in the body. Another was to make sure the bolt spring has enough space to move. IIRC, they opted for the 7000 series aluminum to preclude the need for a body washer (for the bolt spring to push against). Keeping that wall thickness seems to have tripped them up at least a few times.
    no washer is still used, they just dont press fit them anymore.
    it would be stupid to let steel spring continously repeat an action on aluminum.
    My sydarm weighs less than yours!!!

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by RehKal View Post
    And here I was thinking I was lucky to get in on the original sale of them. I was able to take someones place who had to give up their slot. The MM 2k9 has been in storage ever since due to my work related travelling... suppose I could stick my pneu frame and valve on there for testing...
    the three i have had/have worked fine, two i have sold and i still have a boss dustblack one.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpsd View Post
    What bonus sticker? I didn't get any! LOL
    WP_20130308_002.jpg

    Am I the only one?

  19. #19
    MAGgot: I felt like the thread had more information than just the eMicro in question from the OP. First and foremost.... Pro Team actually swapped the broken eMicro for a Tequila fade Emag. It sucks that they had to do it, but they did the right thing in the end. So kudos to them. The reason why I posted the thread was..

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackVCG View Post
    MicroMags just have sloppy tolerances. I don't like the Benchmark frames that come with them and I don't like the way the body is designed. Almost every Mag I worked on was a PTP MicroMag. We had one MicroMag RT that needed a .765" pin because it was too reactive with any pin that was shorter. This was more than likely due to bad tolerances in the mainbody. They can be okay guns, but I'd much rather have to work on an AGD product.
    As soon as I saw the 2k9 issues I immediately thought of this thread. I remember reading it and was shocked that two knowledgable technicians said the same thing about the tolerances of a micromag. Since I live in the archives of AO, its hard to compare 2013 to 2001. It is second nature for you guys to troubleshoot the issue now, but back 10+ years ago people didn't know what was going on.

    O ya, it also doesn't help that there are MicroMag knockoffs still floating around...

    I would love to outline my thoughts on the issues of Micromag tolerances, eMicro on/off pins sears BODY SPACERS, the 2k9ish mag , and the great recall of 2013, but there seems to be a lot of MicroMag fanatics on the forum right now

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drix View Post
    WP_20130308_002.jpg

    Am I the only one?
    You must be because I didn't get any.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by knownothingmags View Post
    no washer is still used, they just dont press fit them anymore.
    it would be stupid to let steel spring continously repeat an action on aluminum.
    Which they figured out after shipping...

    http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...-Washer-Insert

    So, RehKal, check if you have one, as it is probably needed.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drix View Post
    WP_20130308_002.jpg

    Am I the only one?
    I got one from Tracy at one of the Tunaballs... its on my AGD parts box.

    "I'm not happy unless you're not happy"

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-TW View Post
    Which they figured out after shipping...

    http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...-Washer-Insert

    So, RehKal, check if you have one, as it is probably needed.
    Hmm, this will be a problem as I want to get the body annodized once I get all the parts to build it. I highly doubt I have the steel washer as mine was on the original order...

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by RehKal View Post
    Hmm, this will be a problem as I want to get the body annodized once I get all the parts to build it. I highly doubt I have the steel washer as mine was on the original order...
    There was a lengthy period that they were giving these out for free- You might have to pay shipping now but I suspect that PTP has a drawer full of them handy someplace, get in contact here to see if they are still available. I see this problem as OUR fault or RRFireblade's, and here's why: We, as orderers, had the ability to design this thing and push the boundary before the pre order. As a community we decided that the 7k aluminum was strong enough to handle the impact forces of the bolt and therefore asked for a non-washer body. This issue should have shown up with RRFireblade when he did the testing looking for mushrooming of the breech, however, as we've noticed this problem seems to be intermittent and spring dependent (he may not have had the correct spring) and/or he may just have not tested it as much as we all presume. Either way, this failure point was what we told them we wanted, not what they decided to give us. I commend them for giving free washers.

  25. #25
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    Well PTP should get out and stay out of the paintball industry

    Sad to see they screwed over more players
    Charm City Chokehold sponsored by pevs.com,ansgear.com,i2icustom.com

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redic View Post
    Well PTP should get out and stay out of the paintball industry
    I could not disagree more. My visit to PTP was an amazing experience and really hit home about how much Forrest and Tracy are dedicated to the sport. IMO, they've forgotten how to work with paintball players in lieu of their bigger and more lucrative government contracts. If I were them I'd build a working prototype first, and say "This is what you're going to have" and leave it like that instead of re-designing on the fly.

  27. #27
    I feel this lies in the designers hands. Not the manufacturer. Yes, lightweight is nice, but really? That one extra pass of the mill for .000xx weight savings was the difference between a failure and a success.

    The guy milling them is just doing what he's told to pay his bills. Sure a QC check would be nice. But if I came to you and said, "mill these exactly like this" and I were a paying customer with thousands in other peoples money... would you do it? Yes

    Sure ptp may do something to save their name in this deal, but I feel it isn't their fault and it should come at the cost of the designer... not a company just because they are big and powerful.

    But I guess that's why jobs like this go to the big dogs, they have the means to correct a multi unit screw up....
    Last edited by Cokrkilr; 03-10-2013 at 06:36 AM.

  28. #28
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    I don't think any of the milling was done for weight savings... in fact, they left plenty of meat on there to get them milled with some nice cuts and designs, but no one has taken that plunge yet.

    I'm still eagerly awaiting the fix for the velocity issue.

  29. #29
    I think you are talking about the micromag and I'm talking about this cocker issue...

  30. #30
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    Calling a cocker body complete with backblock and full tube enclosure, not to mention full length, cut for weight savings is a laugh.

    Its sloppy, clearly wasn't tested well, and again - like the MM2k9 - is a design that is lacking in the complete thought department.

    If the issue is only because the feednecks weren't centered... um. seriously? Blaming 1 failure on another as justification and/or explanation?

    Gimme my original AGD spec parts any day over anything from PTP.
    My Feedback "Let's see some pictures of ridiculously long barrels" -BTAutomag.

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