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Thread: No substitutes: Polyurethane just can't be replaced.

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by GoatBoy View Post
    If you ever have to send your gun in to AGD or Tuna or something and they find Buna o-rings in there, all of us are probably going to be very annoyed with you.
    QFT!

    I'll be interested to see how long they last. Though, the 90D Buna o-rings aren't even as common as the 70D that you see floating around and being used in a ton of other markers. I'd bet most of the aftermarket o-ring kits simply come with 70D's - even the ones that have been sized up and labeled for Automags.

  2. #32
    Yeah I'm curious as well, that's why I'm doing it.

    I put the gun through about 300 rounds today (like I said, I'm not exactly a high volume player), no failures.

    Speaking of o-rings used in other markers, I replaced all the o-rings in my Azodin inline regulator. I don't even know what kind of o-rings that thing came with from factory -- they looked and felt like... 5 durometer o-rings or something. Very weird.

    "Accuracy by aiming."


    Definitely not on the A-Team.

  3. #33
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    A couple of things not mentioned...
    buna is used in the small ULT oring as this size is not available in Poly. It will wear faster and will need to be changed out more often then poly.
    Buna orings DO wear faster and leave MANY more particulates in you AGD gun than Poly. Any one of these particulates will get stuck in your AGD marker and cause it to fail.
    L10 inner carrier orings are HAND picked for tolerance. Not all orings will work here.
    Buna orings are so soft that they can be pushed/pulled/distorted into air passages and will not return to their original shape hence making them virtually useless.
    Someone alot smarter than us figured this out a long time ago. Use cheap orings at your own discretion. I will not use them...ever.
    AGD parts kits contain alot more than just orings. They contaion enough to rebuild your marker TWICE. Weigh the option of doing it once correct versus having to deal with cheap crap. Trust me...it isn't worth it.
    I see the figure "30.00 for a parts kit" being thrown around here. None of the parts kits cost 30.00 except for the Sydarm.
    Email me for low prices on ALL AGD Products and more. tunaman5@verizon.net
    Tunamart

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tunaman View Post
    I see the figure "30.00 for a parts kit" being thrown around here. None of the parts kits cost 30.00 except for the Sydarm.
    Xvalve O-ring replacement kit is $25 through AGD. Minimum shipping charge is $6.00 per the AGD store. This is what I was using as a reference for the $30 O-ring kit. I buy and sell crap (work and personal) all day long, part of my habit to include shipping charges into my cost.

  5. #35
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    Its funny. I got out of paintball due to expense in 02. I have came back to it because it is cheaper than running my bike at the dragstrip.... that and I've always missed playing.

    I agree we need to factor in shipping. And as stated. 2 rebuilds per 30 bux. And a bolt spring. So me. 30 bux is cheap compared to a 250 dollar clutch. I did just buy a barrel that has a buna o ring on it. I've got to replace that. It stretches and hangs up. If I want to remove the barrel I dont want to fight with a stupid oring just because I wanted to save 50 cents. I've got an expensive gun. I understand cutting costs. But remember. As them buna o rings wear out they are also puking fragments throughout the gun.

  6. #36
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    I actually wasnt complaining about the costs of the kits. I was just the one that threw out the price reference. I don't have a problem with spending $30 on a $500+ marker. In the time I have been playing with Mags, I have really only ever purchased two complete O-rings kits and still have plenty left over. I have bought a couple of replacment individual o-rings though.

  7. #37
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    Oh I knew you weren't complaining. It was more a in general deal of complaint. With the age on my guns and the amount of paint that has been shot through them. I haven't ever used a whole kit. Ever. My banjo o rings are leaking a hair now. But I thank that's an age issue since that o ring kit was bought in 01 or 02.

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Tunaman View Post
    A couple of things not mentioned...
    buna is used in the small ULT oring as this size is not available in Poly. It will wear faster and will need to be changed out more often then poly.
    Yes, thank you. That was what I was looking for. I remember this, but couldn't find the post. "Someone alot smarter than 'us'" deemed buna was OK for this application, else they wouldn't have given it to us at all.

    Let me reiterate: the paintball god put a buna o-ring in some specific place in the marker because the paintball god deemed it was OK to put a buna o-ring in some specific place in the marker.

    Is anything buna automatically 100% completely horribly evil?

    Apparently not.

    Those of you with ULT's: how often have you changed out that buna o-ring?


    Quote Originally Posted by Tunaman View Post
    Buna orings DO wear faster and leave MANY more particulates in you AGD gun than Poly.
    No data.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tunaman View Post
    Buna orings are so soft that they can be pushed/pulled/distorted into air passages and will not return to their original shape hence making them virtually useless.
    This was already mentioned.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tunaman View Post
    Someone alot smarter than us figured this out a long time ago. Use cheap orings at your own discretion. I will not use them...ever.
    AGD parts kits contain alot more than just orings. They contaion enough to rebuild your marker TWICE. Weigh the option of doing it once correct versus having to deal with cheap crap. Trust me...it isn't worth it.
    I understand your point of view (policy) since you are in the direct line of fire when having to repair other people's markers. I certainly don't want people wasting their own time or yours by sending a marker in for repairs with substandard o-rings.

    But policy should not be confused with science.

    "Trust me" isn't particularly ... technical. "Will fail" as a description of reliability is "virtually useless" (unless you're implying it will never work -- not even once). As far as I can tell, no one outside the circle of "someone alot smarter than 'us'" has <i>actually tried it and published the details</i>.

    ---> <i><u><b>You can't weigh the options when you don't have the data.</b></u></i> <---



    If you have tried buna o-rings in an Automag, please share your details, if for no better reason than others being able to reproduce your conditions and validate or invalidate your findings. That goes for everyone.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoatBoy View Post
    Yes, thank you. That was what I was looking for. I remember this, but couldn't find the post. "Someone alot smarter than 'us'" deemed buna was OK for this application, else they wouldn't have given it to us at all.

    Let me reiterate: the paintball god put a buna o-ring in some specific place in the marker because the paintball god deemed it was OK to put a buna o-ring in some specific place in the marker.

    Is anything buna automatically 100% completely horribly evil?

    Apparently not.

    Those of you with ULT's: how often have you changed out that buna o-ring?




    No data.




    This was already mentioned.




    I understand your point of view (policy) since you are in the direct line of fire when having to repair other people's markers. I certainly don't want people wasting their own time or yours by sending a marker in for repairs with substandard o-rings.

    But policy should not be confused with science.

    "Trust me" isn't particularly ... technical. "Will fail" as a description of reliability is "virtually useless" (unless you're implying it will never work -- not even once). As far as I can tell, no one outside the circle of "someone alot smarter than 'us'" has <i>actually tried it and published the details</i>.

    ---> <i><u><b>You can't weigh the options when you don't have the data.</b></u></i> <---



    If you have tried buna o-rings in an Automag, please share your details, if for no better reason than others being able to reproduce your conditions and validate or invalidate your findings. That goes for everyone.
    We do have the data. 20+ years of experience shows the data. You keep trying to show that buna is just as good. You will fail. This was all proven before you were even born. Nobody ever said buna wont work. They will. Keep using them Your marker will love you for it.

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Tunaman View Post
    We do have the data. 20+ years of experience shows the data. You keep trying to show that buna is just as good. You will fail. This was all proven before you were even born. Nobody ever said buna wont work. They will. Keep using them Your marker will love you for it.
    I'm not saying buna is "just as good".

    Everyone is flat out saying "buna is bad", unqualified.

    Well, "how bad is bad?"

    Everything "will fail". That includes the AGD parts, otherwise you wouldn't be selling AGD parts kits in the first place.

    So where's the data?

  11. #41
    Correction: everyone has been saying "buna is bad, relatively speaking."

    I don't think anyone has said that you couldn't get by on buna o-rings, just that they're not going to hold up like polyurethane. And since Automags are known for their reliability, using the polyurethane o-rings has a lot to do with it.

  12. #42
    I know. I've always run the genuine AGD parts inside my guns. Outside might be a different story, but inside it's all AGD parts kits, of which I have a sizable stockpile (condition of stockpile might be in question due to the shelf life issue I've already mentioned though).

    "I changed [A] o-ring in my mag with [B] buna, running [C] air system, [D] lube, and it failed within [E] cycles."

    Fill in for A, B, C, D, and E. Pretty simple.

    If you (not you specifically, Justus) don't care about the data, then why are you talking?!?! (Other than to make character attacks against what you think is my age, which seems to be a recurring tactic around here.)

  13. #43
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    Questions of your age keep coming up due to how you keep presenting yourself in text. You come off as a snot nosed little kid that is determined to prove the world isn't round. That may not be the case. But that is how you come off. And a hand full of threads come to mind right now that back up this opinion. Because when point blank questions to you get asked. That have very real answers. You never answer. Only attack back.

  14. #44
    Join Date
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    I have a buna example that is documented in two different threads. The problem appears to be shelf life, not so much lube or number of shots.

    At the end of March 2009, I put my EP mag into service with a quad (buna) on/off top o-ring. In May of 2012, I had a failure of that o-ring, after more than 20k cycles. Fair enough. I had bought the set of four from the AGD store, so I installed a spare and went back to play. That one lasted less than 100 shots. I found the new one had wadded up in the on/off, and the other two (unused, stored clean, out of the sun and dry) had lost their elasticity also. I dug out some ancient, unknown teflon top o-ring and a longer on/off pin, problem solved.

  15. #45
    Join Date
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    I saw specifications mentioned in this thread.

    Check out macrorubber.com. They have some good charts.

    Check out RL Hudson Online O-Ring Design & Material Guide.

    And for the ultimate insomnia cure, one could read the specifications listed in the above references, such as AS586C, ASTM D 2000, and ASTM D 1418, which should be available for purchase at global.ihs.com

    To add another twist, do not forget there are millable gum and cast polyurethane o-rings, each having different properties.

    -Nathan
    XT00380
    Last of the Salzburg Clan

  16. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-TW View Post
    I have a buna example that is documented in two different threads. The problem appears to be shelf life, not so much lube or number of shots.

    At the end of March 2009, I put my EP mag into service with a quad (buna) on/off top o-ring. In May of 2012, I had a failure of that o-ring, after more than 20k cycles. Fair enough. I had bought the set of four from the AGD store, so I installed a spare and went back to play. That one lasted less than 100 shots. I found the new one had wadded up in the on/off, and the other two (unused, stored clean, out of the sun and dry) had lost their elasticity also. I dug out some ancient, unknown teflon top o-ring and a longer on/off pin, problem solved.
    I must have overlooked those threads. I did try to mention the shelf life issue as it is something I have noticed as well.

    20k is a good number. I put about 300 more through mine today.

  17. #47
    Put another 300 through the gun today; everything's still working just fine.

    I'm going to dub this gun the "Bunamag".

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