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Thread: The trouble with Pump Mags (as I see it)

  1. #1

    The trouble with Pump Mags (as I see it)

    Too many steps. First you track down and buy a kit, then you have your rail milled, then you have your body milled. Each step adds time and money.

    This next part I say with some reservation. As an indy game maker and an active member of those communities I often see people pop up and say "I have a great idea, will somebody (who has dedicated years and invested their own money to learn how) code it for me!?". It happens with whack-a-mole frequency. So I understand when I suggest this that the custom fabrication folks here on AO have their hands full with their own ideas careers and families already. But if anyone does have the time, and there is enough interest, I would love to see a built to purpose pump body/rail/kit.

    I have a few thoughts about how this could be done while keeping cost down, but I'm sure the pro's know better than I. Would anyone else like to see this?

  2. #2
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    thats a good idea man! it would probably take alot of people being interested for someone to think it was worth their time to make one? with all the interest in pump kits right now you would think that would be a top of the list project for the people with the machines, but no luck there so far?

    lets hear your thoughts man???

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by need4reebs View Post
    lets hear your thoughts man???
    The big one is to mill the pump portion and the rail out of a single inline piece of AL. You could then just cut the "front" off and make the needed changes to mount the pump rod, spring etc. You could also mill holes in the front so that any standard foregrip could be mounted to it. That would give people tons of options for "pump handles". You would have to shave 1/16" or so off the top of the "front" so it didn't touch the body. Seems like this method would save lots of time in design and machine time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pgop2.0 View Post
    The big one is to mill the pump portion and the rail out of a single inline piece of AL. You could then just cut the "front" off and make the needed changes to mount the pump rod, spring etc. You could also mill holes in the front so that any standard foregrip could be mounted to it. That would give people tons of options for "pump handles". You would have to shave 1/16" or so off the top of the "front" so it didn't touch the body. Seems like this method would save lots of time in design and machine time.


    very nice! that would be pretty Sa WeeT! you should post a pic/drawing if you are able to...either way thats a nice lil idea...that could also be made AM/MM or RT/E-Mag length if it was done this way right? that would be a whole lotta options for everyone, seeing how some people like E-Mag/RTP length set ups and some people like AM/MM length set ups.

  5. #5
    This is a rough (no dimensions considered) of what I had in mind. Hopefully it makes sense.pump.png

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    Quote Originally Posted by pgop2.0 View Post
    This is a rough (no dimensions considered) of what I had in mind. Hopefully it makes sense.pump.png

    very nice...how do you make drawings like that?

  7. #7
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    Every time I ever handed anyone a pump mag the first thing they did was jerk the pump handle off pulling it forward after cocking it.


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    Quote Originally Posted by going_home View Post
    Every time I ever handed anyone a pump mag the first thing they did was jerk the pump handle off pulling it forward after cocking it.

    willing to bet you had a first gen rainman kit.i never had that issue i had a later version

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    Quote Originally Posted by captian pinky View Post
    willing to bet you had a first gen rainman kit.i never had that issue i had a later version
    Yep.

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    the main problem, and this isn't just for pump kits is, people will always say they want them, but when product comes(and it isn't just for pre-orders) the people that said they want it, never pony up the cash.

    having the rail, body, and the kit already also has the counter-effect of people wanting to customize the parts/gun. for years, the Mag community had nothing but Eclipse kits to change the look of the gun. now, with many different bodies, and many different options, some might not like that you have this rail with this body.

  11. #11
    You could just design it into a 3d printed rail and use off-the shelf parts for the rest (like say a nice, real linear bearing). I've grown quite fond of using an AFG as a pump handle on my Trracer.

    There's no way around having to get the body milled though. That in my opinion is the worst part of all of this and is the biggest blocker.
    "Accuracy by aiming."


    Definitely not on the A-Team.

  12. #12
    Question: What's so complicated about the rail? Can't you just do it with a dremel?

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by halB View Post
    Question: What's so complicated about the rail? Can't you just do it with a dremel?
    The bolt end of the milling has kind of a ramp to it if I'm reading the ... picture properly. I'm guessing it's to guide the rod up so that it can actually catch the bolt. If you can do that accurately with a Dremel, awesome.

    I've never personally held a pump kit so I'm guessing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by need4reebs View Post
    thats a good idea man! it would probably take alot of people being interested for someone to think it was worth their time to make one? with all the interest in pump kits right now you would think that would be a top of the list project for the people with the machines, but no luck there so far?

    lets hear your thoughts man???
    We should start an indiegogo.com campaign to raise the funds to have a batch of pump kits produced. It worked for updating AO...

  15. #15
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    Patience guys, I will be doing these, no need to start a campaign.
    I'm in the middle of a project "everyone" (All 3 of you, lol) wanted awhile back. I've just started looking into pump kits.

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    hells yeah start tha campaign...there are a bunch of people looking for a Mag pump kit!

    hey Luke i thought you were working on a pump kit awhile ago???

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by need4reebs View Post
    very nice...how do you make drawings like that?
    Adobe Illustrator.

    Quote Originally Posted by luke
    Patience guys, I will be doing these, no need to start a campaign.
    I'm in the middle of a project "everyone" (All 3 of you, lol) wanted awhile back. I've just started looking into pump kits.
    w00t! Sign me up! Will you be using my rail concept? If so I demand monetary compensation! err.. naming rights!?... err... Honorable mention....??

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by need4reebs View Post
    hey Luke i thought you were working on a pump kit awhile ago???
    Never started the project, just talked about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pgop2.0 View Post
    w00t! Sign me up! Will you be using my rail concept? If so I demand monetary compensation! err.. naming rights!?... err... Honorable mention....??
    The only way I would deviate from the basic kit would be a complete redesigned AGD powered pump marker, that that wont happen this go around. (KISS)

  20. #20
    I've seen the pricing on a couple used kits. What's the price point on a new one? Aside from the $50 in milling it takes.

    Would the kit be able to use aftermatket pump handles for say a phantom or autococker?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    The only way I would deviate from the basic kit would be a complete redesigned AGD powered pump marker, that that wont happen this go around. (KISS)
    so its gonna be the third AGD kit made? just with a different name on it? AGD, CI Kit, and now a Luke's kit?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cokrkilr View Post
    I've seen the pricing on a couple used kits. What's the price point on a new one? Aside from the $50 in milling it takes.

    Would the kit be able to use aftermatket pump handles for say a phantom or autococker?

    the original kits couldnt use the aftermarket pump handles...so hopefully a nice new design is what will be made that can fit both a winged rail as well as a flat rail and be able to use other types of pump handles?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    I've just started looking into pump kits.
    Guys, there is no price, no plan, no design, the project has not started yet, all I'm saying is I will make something.
    However it does not make sense to completely reinvent the wheel, to sell 10 or 15 units.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by need4reebs View Post
    the original kits couldnt use the aftermarket pump handles...so hopefully a nice new design is what will be made that can fit both a winged rail as well as a flat rail and be able to use other types of pump handles?
    Fitting both rails should not be a problem, using a 2 screw mount for both should work. (no wings)
    If there is a specific after market handle design you guys want to use I will need a loaner to design from.

  25. #25
    Hint hint ...... i really wish Luke would make a pump kit, you really make quality stuff.

    I am not so opinionated with the pump handle, although a tactical one might look great with the current tac1 body Luke already milled for me in hopes of finishing my build. However, I really love the hittman lever. Some how to incorporate that into the pump handle of choice would get my vote and money
    Last edited by barkingspider; 04-09-2013 at 11:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    If there is a specific after market handle design you guys want to use I will need a loaner to design from.
    GoatBoy has a point with the magpul AFG. It's not for everybody, but I've thought about making a pump handle that is about the size of a mounting rail just for that purpose. It would be nice to have that option. The CI tac pump kit was a bit too much for me with the side rails though.

    Since it is being thrown around, another thing to consider would be a new way to interrupt the semi-auto action. If you latch the sear back with a magnet or mechanical latch in the rail, you can get rid of the weak bolt spring and wave spring and run a level 10 without special tuning. The main problem would be that the pump stroke would be even shorter unless you did something to intentionally keep it long.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-TW View Post
    GoatBoy has a point with the magpul AFG. It's not for everybody, but I've thought about making a pump handle that is about the size of a mounting rail just for that purpose. It would be nice to have that option. The CI tac pump kit was a bit too much for me with the side rails though.

    Since it is being thrown around, another thing to consider would be a new way to interrupt the semi-auto action. If you latch the sear back with a magnet or mechanical latch in the rail, you can get rid of the weak bolt spring and wave spring and run a level 10 without special tuning. The main problem would be that the pump stroke would be even shorter unless you did something to intentionally keep it long.

    if you went that way the pump rod could run thru the trigger frame and instead of interrupting the bolt function you could possibly interrupt the sear funtion? Possibly...haha!!!

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    Guys, there is no price, no plan, no design, the project has not started yet, all I'm saying is I will make something.
    However it does not make sense to completely reinvent the wheel, to sell 10 or 15 units.
    Even if the wheel would be really really sweet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-TW View Post
    Since it is being thrown around, another thing to consider would be a new way to interrupt the semi-auto action. If you latch the sear back with a magnet or mechanical latch in the rail, you can get rid of the weak bolt spring and wave spring and run a level 10 without special tuning. The main problem would be that the pump stroke would be even shorter unless you did something to intentionally keep it long.
    I like where this is heading, I would definitely buy one.

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by need4reebs View Post
    if you went that way the pump rod could run thru the trigger frame and instead of interrupting the bolt function you could possibly interrupt the sear funtion? Possibly...haha!!!
    This idea looks great on paper. Take it a step further. Put a plate at the end of the pump rod that blocks the sear from returning. Now the whole thing can be contained in the rail.
    pump.png

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    Quote Originally Posted by need4reebs View Post
    if you went that way the pump rod could run thru the trigger frame and instead of interrupting the bolt function you could possibly interrupt the sear funtion? Possibly...haha!!!
    Yes, I was thinking about the lever action application a while back, which would be easier with a latch and everything in the frame.

    Pump mags weren't originally designed to remain pumps. If you have to go down the custom machining road to get one now, we should at least consider the possibilities.

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