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Thread: The trouble with Pump Mags (as I see it)

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-TW View Post
    Yes, I was thinking about the lever action application a while back, which would be easier with a latch and everything in the frame.

    Pump mags weren't originally designed to remain pumps. If you have to go down the custom machining road to get one now, we should at least consider the possibilities.

    its more of a "can this be done" or "is this something i can do"....tinkererererer type thing....as well as not wanting to go down that custom machining road!

    what type of levers would be small enough as well as strong enough to use for this?

  2. #32
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    just THROWING this out there...


    why cant we make a pnue-pump that when pumped, trips the trigger frames saftey off?

    or make it fully pnue and only let the air to the ram after cocked?

    or even an electronic pump handle that lets air through a noid

    with that you could have a pump that with the flick of switch be pump OR semi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    first ever

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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by BTAutoMag View Post
    just THROWING this out there...


    why cant we make a pnue-pump that when pumped, trips the trigger frames saftey off?

    or make it fully pnue and only let the air to the ram after cocked?

    or even an electronic pump handle that lets air through a noid

    with that you could have a pump that with the flick of switch be pump OR semi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    first ever

    hells yeah...arent you a machinist? how much longer til you finish...haha?

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by BTAutoMag View Post
    just THROWING this out there...


    why cant we make a pnue-pump that when pumped, trips the trigger frames saftey off?

    or make it fully pnue and only let the air to the ram after cocked?

    or even an electronic pump handle that lets air through a noid

    with that you could have a pump that with the flick of switch be pump OR semi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    first ever

    both of my pump mags have pneumag frames..so they are Pneu-Pump Mags

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    Patience guys, I will be doing these, no need to start a campaign.
    I'm in the middle of a project "everyone" (All 3 of you, lol) wanted awhile back. I've just started looking into pump kits.
    *Another bag of popcorn in the micro*
    Quote Originally Posted by BTAutoMag View Post
    you can have it. I dont buy the porn, I just watch it

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBLife View Post
    *Another bag of popcorn in the micro*

  7. #37
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    ~crunch~

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by BTAutoMag View Post
    just THROWING this out there...


    why cant we make a pnue-pump that when pumped, trips the trigger frames saftey off?

    or make it fully pnue and only let the air to the ram after cocked?

    or even an electronic pump handle that lets air through a noid

    with that you could have a pump that with the flick of switch be pump OR semi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    first ever

    Crap, get out of my head! I was working behind the scenes trying to devise a concept for a pneumatic pump w/ autotrigger...one that would allow the use of any rail and body completely unmodified.

  9. #39
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    ~crunch~

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by splat15k View Post
    Crap, get out of my head! I was working behind the scenes trying to devise a concept for a pneumatic pump w/ autotrigger...one that would allow the use of any rail and body completely unmodified.
    That seems like the ultimate feet in over engineering (but I would still love to see it). Take a natural semi, make it a pump, give it a pneumatic auto trigger. I mean, why even be a pump. You may as well take the pump rod and hook it straight up to the sear.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgop2.0 View Post
    That seems like the ultimate feet in over engineering (but I would still love to see it). Take a natural semi, make it a pump, give it a pneumatic auto trigger. I mean, why even be a pump. You may as well take the pump rod and hook it straight up to the sear.
    All pump mags aren't practical, but people still want them.

  12. #42
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    mq pumps aren't practical either its like taking a sniper pulling the fully working frame and internals out to spend easy $300 to do the same thing which end sup causing more headaches.

  13. #43
    So thinking about the "block sear return" design, here's what I think needs to be resolved. Either:

    1. Pump arm needs to reliably disengage from the sear block so it can't simply be held back and the marker is semi-auto again.

    or

    2. Sear travel is blocked by the mechanical "or" of the pump arm AND the blocking plate that's left behind.

    I.e. In order to fire, the pump rod needs to go back forward AND the plate has to have been reset.


    I think #2 is more feasible.

    I was also playing around with this idea for the blocking plate:




    Actually, I think I figured it out.
    Last edited by GoatBoy; 04-10-2013 at 08:11 PM.
    "Accuracy by aiming."


    Definitely not on the A-Team.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoatBoy View Post
    So thinking about the "block sear return" design, here's what I think needs to be resolved. Either:

    1. Pump arm needs to reliably disengage from the sear block so it can't simply be held back and the marker is semi-auto again.

    or

    2. Sear travel is blocked by the mechanical "or" of the pump arm AND the blocking plate that's left behind.

    I.e. In order to fire, the pump rod needs to go back forward AND the plate has to have been reset.


    I think #2 is more feasible.

    I was also playing around with this idea for the blocking plate:




    Actually, I think I figured it out.


  15. #45
    Sat down and drew up what I was thinking.

    The two sliding plates are spring loaded; the back one wants to rotate forward, the front one wants to rotate backwards.

    State 1: Back of sear has dropped into the back plate's channel, front plate is held forward by pump rod and the front of sear is free to drop into channel.



    State 2: Gun is fired, back of sear raises up out of back plate's channel. When it does, the spring loaded plate moves forward and prevents the sear from dropping down again.



    State 3a: Pump rod is actuated backwards, which pushes the back plate back.



    State 3b: As soon as the back plate is back far enough, the sear drops into the channel, locking the back plate. Front plate disengages from the sear and rotates backwards, preventing the sear from being able to drop (i.e. safety).



    Pump arm moving forward returns to State 1, where the sear is free to drop into the front channel again.


    There are various details like the non-orthogonal shape of the sear, but I believe they can all be worked out.

    The benefit is: you still get to use all your fruity artistic custom bodies without modding, and your level 10 without modding.

    However, the drawback is it's a pretty rail intensive mod. All the magic happens inside the rail, and if you want to get down to the nitty gritty, I think the pump rod and the rotation pins for the plates are outside of the 1" width of the rail if you want a full 0.68" pump stroke. So this might not even be able to be retrofitted on any existing rails.

    Of course, if you have a 3d printed rail, the rail mod is cake.

  16. #46
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    Interesting concepts but this all falls way outside the KISS principal. Simplicity of operation is the main reason I love the current pump mag design

    I know it isn't easy to Auto trigger/ slam fire a pump mag, but increasing ROF at the expense of accuracy defeats (for me) the point of shooting pump in the first place

  17. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by GEE TEE View Post
    Interesting concepts but this all falls way outside the KISS principal. Simplicity of operation is the main reason I love the current pump mag design

    I know it isn't easy to Auto trigger/ slam fire a pump mag, but increasing ROF at the expense of accuracy defeats (for me) the point of shooting pump in the first place
    Agreed. A spring loaded blocking plate/rod in the rail would actually be less complex than the current design. No need for a wave spring, body milling, or cutting down the spring. That latch is already there in the form of the sear. When the marker if fired the sear releases both the bolt and the blocking plate while switching the on off to the off position. The bolt is free to travel all the way back, but we are still not in semi because the plate prevents recharge via the on/off. Pulling the pump arm pushes the blocking plate back, the sear grabs it and the bolt and the on off returns to on.

    The whole thing can be contained within the rail. You would have a plug and play "pump rail" much less complex than a pump rail, pump milled body, wave spring, cut spring, and all the tuning that goes along with it.

    No violation of KISS.

    In the drawing here I have added a second pump rod. The channels for the rods would actually be tunnels in this design. This lets us put o-rings on the pump rods so they can to double duty as stabilizing rods. Does not get much more simple than this.

    pump2.png

  18. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgop2.0 View Post
    Agreed. A spring loaded blocking plate/rod in the rail would actually be less complex than the current design. No need for a wave spring, body milling, or cutting down the spring. That latch is already there in the form of the sear. When the marker if fired the sear releases both the bolt and the blocking plate while switching the on off to the off position. The bolt is free to travel all the way back, but we are still not in semi because the plate prevents recharge via the on/off. Pulling the pump arm pushes the blocking plate back, the sear grabs it and the bolt and the on off returns to on.

    The whole thing can be contained within the rail. You would have a plug and play "pump rail" much less complex than a pump rail, pump milled body, wave spring, cut spring, and all the tuning that goes along with it.

    No violation of KISS.

    In the drawing here I have added a second pump rod. The channels for the rods would actually be tunnels in this design. This lets us put o-rings on the pump rods so they can to double duty as stabilizing rods. Does not get much more simple than this.

    pump2.png


    Oh hells yeah! thats Awesome! damn you and goat boy got some great ideas man!

  19. #49
    "Everything should be made as simple as possible -- but no simpler."


    Quote Originally Posted by pgop2.0 View Post
    Agreed. A spring loaded blocking plate/rod in the rail would actually be less complex than the current design. No need for a wave spring, body milling, or cutting down the spring. That latch is already there in the form of the sear. When the marker if fired the sear releases both the bolt and the blocking plate while switching the on off to the off position. The bolt is free to travel all the way back, but we are still not in semi because the plate prevents recharge via the on/off. Pulling the pump arm pushes the blocking plate back, the sear grabs it and the bolt and the on off returns to on.

    The whole thing can be contained within the rail. You would have a plug and play "pump rail" much less complex than a pump rail, pump milled body, wave spring, cut spring, and all the tuning that goes along with it.

    No violation of KISS.

    In the drawing here I have added a second pump rod. The channels for the rods would actually be tunnels in this design. This lets us put o-rings on the pump rods so they can to double duty as stabilizing rods. Does not get much more simple than this.

    pump2.png
    I'm having difficulty visualizing the states in your picture.

    How do you:

    1. Guarantee 0.68" pump travel to reset the state?
    2. Prevent the user from just holding the pump rod back and having full-time semi-auto?

    This is basically a state machine with some required transitions.
    Last edited by GoatBoy; 04-17-2013 at 11:17 AM.

  20. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by GoatBoy View Post
    1. Guarantee 0.68" pump travel to reset the state?
    2. Prevent the user from just holding the pump rod back and having full-time semi-auto?
    1. No idea. I have no tools at my disposal to measure that kind of stuff. My off the cuff response would be to make the plate throw.68"

    2. Missed that in this concept but easily rectified. Ad a secondary blocking device bridging the two rods. This would obstruct the sear while held back.

    pump3.png

    Scratch that. That will keep the sear from latching the first blocking plate. Need to think a bit.

  21. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by pgop2.0 View Post
    1. No idea. I have no tools at my disposal to measure that kind of stuff. My off the cuff response would be to make the plate throw.68"

    2. Missed that in this concept but easily rectified. Ad a secondary blocking device bridging the two rods. This would obstruct the sear while held back.

    pump3.png

    Scratch that. That will keep the sear from latching the first blocking plate. Need to think a bit.
    Sit down, draw the state machine and required transitions and make sure you hit them all and that the state can't change outside the defined sequence.

    You need some sort of latch mechanism. Your plate version will work if you can get it to latch back at a certain state, and spring out only after firing and stay out until reset by the pump. But there goes all your mechanical simplicity. I'm sure it can be done, but my version tries to use the existing available facilities with as few parts as possible, and without modification to the body.

  22. #52
    Solved (?)

    I've extended the pump rods and added a sear interrupting rod to the back of them. Again, no measuring or math done, but it works in the mental model.
    pump4.png

  23. #53
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    simple question. can we put a powerful magnet or a spring in the grip to prevent the sear from comming back forward and then a pump arm that pushed the sear back intoplace by using the esisting slope on the front as a ramp

  24. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by BTAutoMag View Post
    simple question. can we put a powerful magnet or a spring in the grip to prevent the sear from comming back forward and then a pump arm that pushed the sear back intoplace by using the esisting slope on the front as a ramp
    Simple and feasible. This is probably the cleanest idea yet.
    Trouble is that same magnet will incline the marker toward firing itself.
    Last edited by Patron God of Pirates; 04-17-2013 at 12:52 PM. Reason: More thinking

  25. #55
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    then make a spring loaded do hickey that catches the sear in the grip after it passes it. ever loosen a spring too much in an autoresponse frame?

  26. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by pgop2.0 View Post
    Solved (?)

    I've extended the pump rods and added a sear interrupting rod to the back of them. Again, no measuring or math done, but it works in the mental model.
    pump4.png
    There's a reason why I rendered 4 different pictures and labeled the states. You have a very long, random road ahead of you if you don't get everything mapped out.

    The rod on the back of the pump arms will work if they are spring loaded and retract in and out of the pump rods, which is actually kind of a neat idea. That's actually probably going to be a much simpler mechanism to implement on that back end.

    It's just another implementation of what I did with the spring loaded plate. And thinking things through, I think I have some simplifications that can be made.


    The magnet idea is interesting by the way.
    Last edited by GoatBoy; 04-17-2013 at 01:43 PM.

  27. #57
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    someone with an emag magnet, open up their grip and see if a magnet will hold the sear back after fired. maybe 2

    if it works then a magnet pump kit would be SOOO easy
    Last edited by BTAutoMag; 04-17-2013 at 02:12 PM.

  28. #58
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    We'll have to test with different input pressures and On/Off assemblies of course.

  29. #59
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    true, I have a couple magnets and a ULTed xvalve, I can give my setup a shot

  30. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by BTAutoMag View Post
    true, I have a couple magnets and a ULTed xvalve, I can give my setup a shot
    This should be a possibility. I was looking at different high strength magnets. With the RT on/off rated at about 4 lbs, I think you would have to put a target on the sear to hold it. The ULT should be about a lb and easier to work with. Perhaps using the catch magnet as a sear stop would help with a ULT in classic valve. A G-Force-ish extension would help with the RT on/off, as much as I hate to think it.

    Still, the pump stroke will be a small kick to the sear. By the time you make something to stretch that stroke out, I'm thinking you might as well have a mechanical latch.

    The magnet thing is where I liked a lever action, since the lever stroke wouldn't really work well with your finger on the trigger and the lever hanging down all the time. With a short pump stroke, you can always ride it in close to the activation point.
    Last edited by Spider-TW; 04-17-2013 at 03:27 PM.

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