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Thread: OK, I'm at a dead end

  1. #1
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    OK, I'm at a dead end

    My mag wont stop breaking paint!



    here's the setup and ive clearanced the carbon fiber and got a new prophecy loader thats set up on its highest speed.

    the body is heavily modified and ive noticed a couple sharp spots that have been polished and smoothed over.

    switched to a larger bore barrel retuned the lvl 10... twice... but at this point im open to anything



    EDIT: after the video, a good cleaning and a new hopper with fresh batteries I tried again. 3 balls broke in a row and then I had bolt stick... when i say bolt stick... the bolt was all the way FORWARD!

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  2. #2
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    Check to make sure your detent isn't in too far.

  3. #3
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    if you are having bolt stick it is either your ball detent is in to far or your lvl10 is not tuned correctly. is your spring extending past the face of the bolt?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by captian pinky View Post
    if you are having bolt stick it is either your ball detent is in to far or your lvl10 is not tuned correctly. is your spring extending past the face of the bolt?
    Seconded... Start with the level 10 then work on the detent.

  5. #5
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    cant help but notice all the snow... is it perhaps cold? Cold marker? Cold paint?

    EDIT: Just read about your bold being stuck FORWARD... probably not cold related lol.

  6. #6
    What spring is in the lvl 10?

    Only reason I ask is the stock gold spring can still produce chops. It hits quite a bit harder than the red, I've stuck my pinky in both and it was very significant between the two springs.
    Last edited by Cokrkilr; 04-11-2013 at 01:13 AM.

  7. #7
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    posting before watching the vid
    1) ditch the hopper and hand feed. eliminate the possibility of the hopper breaking the paint BEFORE getting into the breech.
    2) where is the paint breaking? if its in the breech, then its the gun. if its in the barrel, then its in the barrel.
    3) if the bolt is sticking forward, then its being hung up on something. if not the ball detent, then look at the feedneck. it might be sticking in and catching the bolt. examine it to see if there are marks on the bolt.

    after watching the vid
    4) check the length of the trigger rod.
    5) check the length of the on/off rod.
    6) make sure that the powertube is screwed down all the way, so that the bolt is coming to rest, where it should be and not being pushed forward a little bit.
    7) are the screws holding the gun together, in snuggly?
    8) have you tried eliminating the other parts of the gun, i.e. changing the body, frame, or valve to see if its one specific part that's giving you trouble?

    it doesn't hurt to step back and examine the gun with the eye. mags are simple in design and implementation. there is a certain symbiosis of the parts. granted, you've modded just about everything, so it could be anything. one part, one oring could throw everything out of balance, or it could be a mass of everything not being in sync with each other. it might be a feng shui thing, but if you understand how the parts work together, it helps figuring out how the gun works and why its doing what it is.

    side note- unless you have an expensive gauge where its calibrated to a certain +/-, gauges will more than likely be wrong. it could be off 1%, which at 800psi, could be actually 790psi or 810psi. if its worse, like 10%, that 800 gauge could be as high as 900psi, or as low as 700psi. i never trust gauges and only use them as a general way to get into the ballpark and see what the gun likes.

  8. #8
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    OPBN- Detent is PROBABLY not the issue I have checked and rechecked clearance on it.

    captian pinky- Medium spring, about 1/2 -5/8" past face of bolt

    sQuidvision- was outside for about 5 min, temp was 45*

    Cokrkilr- I'll try that today

    Nobody- ball frag got stuck inbetween bolt and body, nothing detent related, have checked clearance.
    I'll try hand feeding, its breaking in breach
    trigger rod is set about 1/16th behind trigger gassed up. running a ULT with 2 shims
    yes and yes
    I dont have another body unless i go to twistlock.

  9. #9
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    Pull the detent out and dry fire. Do you still get the bolt sticking forward? There are two o-rings that come with the detents. One is thinner than the other. It doesnt take much to cause issues.

  10. #10
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    its a stock angel detent. I had to go buy an oring to space it right. that bolt stck cause of broken paint

  11. #11
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    Are you using crappy paint? Is it possible the paint is very small and pushing past the detent causing double feeding issues?

  12. #12
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    Graffiti. same paint i put through everything else

  13. #13
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    Valken Graffiti is amazing paint, but breaks real easily. Then again, I've never had any issues using that in my Mags. As for cold weather, that shouldn't affect the performances at all. I've played all winter long with my mags with no ill effect.

    Also, like Nobody said, have you tried eliminating the other parts of the gun, i.e. changing the body, frame, or valve to see if its one specific part that's giving you trouble?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hook View Post
    like Nobody said


    I'll give everything a shot tonight

  15. #15
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    Sorry I missed this one.. just watched the vid... those "efficiency mod" really arent a good idea on anything other than a 12gram powered pump.. and even then they are questionable. AGD made the dump chamber the size it is for a reason. By reducing it, you need to increase the pressure in it to move the bolt and fire the ball because you have decreased volume. A.I.R. valves were like that a while back and AGD figured out that it was causing a lot of ball breaks. They then increased the dump chamber size.

    First thing I would try other than new paint and making sure your bolt spring is good would be to remove that efficiency mod....

  16. #16
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    hmmm. thanks Big-E

    I'll give that a shot!

  17. #17
    I also noticed after watching the video, that you mentioned the X-valve has an efficiency insert. A side effect of the higher efficiency is that the pressure is higher on the ball - it's harder on paint. If you're using very brittle paint, and it has cooled down to 45*, and you're using a forcefeed loader coupled with an efficiency insert-mod X-valve, that might just be your soupy combination.


    EDIT: BigE beat me to it while I was watching and reading. lol

  18. #18
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    then you fail

  19. #19
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    On top of the efficiency mod, the short barrel brings your ball pressure up also (for the same velocity). Do you have your foamy in place? It helps space the ball off the face of the bolt. Just between the efficiency mod and the short barrel, you are pushing the limits. Throw some weak paint in there and you have trouble.

    My son pops one or two weak balls per day with a pump mag and an old minimag shorty barrel and no foamy. He shoots so fast it's hard to tell if he's tripping over the ball drop or blowing them up, but the problem seems to have doubled since he went to the short barrel. The efficiency mod (like flyingpootang's washers) was good with CO2 (and 300 fps), but we could crank the regulator up to leaking before hitting 280 fps with air. Since he needed quick and reliable refills for pump tournaments, we pulled out the washers and went back to full time air.

    I know a longer barrel will get me 30 fps on some of my markers, and a heavily devolumized chamber is worth about 30 fps also. Either one is significant, together is probably too much.

  20. #20
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    i also tried it with my 14 assasin barrel. the shortie is a freak barrel if that makes a difference to you

  21. #21
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    If all else fails try changing the frame , I chop paint like a mofo when using a two finger trigger . I guess i just fat finger it too much causing short stroke chopping, hopefully you don't have this affliction too.

  22. #22
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    that frame is the reason I built this gun

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by BTAutoMag View Post
    i also tried it with my 14 assasin barrel. the shortie is a freak barrel if that makes a difference to you
    Were you able to check the velocity with the longer barrel? I guess another test would be to turn the velocity down to something relatively low and see how the breaks go. That might help narrow it down between popping balls on air pressure or some other form of abuse.

  24. #24
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    im grabbing a chrono tonight

  25. #25
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    I would also recommend hand-feeding it or putting a shake and bake on it. I had the same problem when I was putting brittle paint through a prophecy that was turned up all the way. After I turned the speed down, it stopped breaking paint.

  26. #26
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    2 weekends ago my bolt stick was due to detent. You never know.

  27. #27
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    My rt with a 12 year old wire v nubbin worked fine with my agitator. When I put my new halo 2 on it I had a bad double feeding issue due to the loader forcing paint past the nubbin. New style plastic nubbin and all issues were gone. That was with the halo in factory settings. With that loader on its fastest feed rate I would deff throw an old agitator loader or something on there to take that force feed out of the equation. And then it could just be a bad batch of paint and your hunting for a problem that isn't even gun related.

  28. #28
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    The detents are easy to check. All you need to do is look at the breach area where they screw into the body. If any of the screw edge is felt inside the body, then the detents are in too far. Only the ball detent should be protruding into the breach.

    As mentioned, the efficiency mod could be your problem. A regular level 10 bolt setup requires about 500 psi or more in the chamber to work at the desired velocity. If you use a shorter barrel, that pressure would be higher. When you reduce the chamber volume, you increase the pressure requirement. I don't know the pressure numbers on these, but I'm betting your chamber pressure is probably up around 650 psi or higher. That would require about 850psi or higher coming into the valve. You are showing 800psi on the gauge, but it could be even lower at 700 or 750psi given the error on these things. The lower the differences between the input and chamber, the less likely you are going to get a good seal at the valve orings. If these orings do not seal, then the bolt sticks forward. Rapid firing makes it worst, because the lower pressure differential reduces the flow rate and further accentuates the problem.

    The other thing you might want to look at is the alignment of the valve with the body. Check for rub marks inside the breach area or where the bolt goes through the body washer. Is that washer flush or flat so the bolt spring can't bind or twist on the bolt inside the body?
    Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by athomas View Post
    The detents are easy to check. All you need to do is look at the breach area where they screw into the body. If any of the screw edge is felt inside the body, then the detents are in too far. Only the ball detent should be protruding into the breach.
    first thing I checked

    Quote Originally Posted by athomas View Post
    If these orings do not seal, then the bolt sticks forward.
    when I took the valve out... the bolt was still forward.

    Quote Originally Posted by athomas View Post
    The other thing you might want to look at is the alignment of the valve with the body. Check for rub marks inside the breach area or where the bolt goes through the body washer. Is that washer flush or flat so the bolt spring can't bind or twist on the bolt inside the body?

    its good
    Last edited by BTAutoMag; 04-12-2013 at 08:23 AM.

  30. #30
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    what spring are you using. if i remember correctly you are supposed to use the red spring with the inserts.

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