Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 53

Thread: ULT = sear not catching

  1. #1

    ULT = sear not catching

    Okay forum correct me if I'm wrong. I have an AM with ULE / X-Valve / Lvl 10 / intelliframe and just dropped a ULT trigger in and now the sear won't consistently reset. I've read up on this and it appears I need to remove a shim or two? Does that sound right?

    Next question, I want to shorten the creep on the trigger pull. From what I've read you can't just go twisting the trigger rod since he on / off valve may or may not catch. Again, is that correct?

    Last one, on the tip of the Lvl 10 is that little black rubber cushion. Well mine just fell off. I had an extra and slipped it in but it fell right out. Will superglue hold that in? Too small for duct tape.

    This is my first AM so I'm being cautious with adjusting it.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    4,508
    Quote Originally Posted by Mic0157 View Post
    Okay forum correct me if I'm wrong. I have an AM with ULE / X-Valve / Lvl 10 / intelliframe and just dropped a ULT trigger in and now the sear won't consistently reset. I've read up on this and it appears I need to remove a shim or two? Does that sound right? Start tuning the ULT by removing all of the shims. Add back in one at a time to adjust it to your liking.

    Next question, I want to shorten the creep on the trigger pull. From what I've read you can't just go twisting the trigger rod since he on / off valve may or may not catch. Again, is that correct? Sear rod should sit about a credit cards thickness from the back of the trigger when aired up. IIRC, there is an exact measurement in the Tolerances thread. You may have to adjust this after adding/removing shims from the ULT.

    Last one, on the tip of the Lvl 10 is that little black rubber cushion. Well mine just fell off. I had an extra and slipped it in but it fell right out. Will superglue hold that in? Too small for duct tape. Yes, it has to be glued on. Super Glue will work, but make sure you clean any residue off the bolt before attempting to glue it on. Any oil or bits of the previous foamy can cause the bond to be weak.

    This is my first AM so I'm being cautious with adjusting it.
    Good luck.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    DeWitt, MI
    Posts
    399
    Is the trigger limp, or are you pulling against some amount of pressure?

    What input pressure are you running? Is it going directly to the valve or through any other form of regulation/restriction?

    You want a credit card's thickness gas between the back of the trigger and the trigger rod when the marker is pressurized. If you have that, leave it. If you don't, post back, and we can walk you through the adjustment.

    I've had good luck with Loctite Ultra Gel. It is a rubber toughened CA glue. It's good for impact resistance, and I can find it a lot easier/cheaper than some of the other recommended glues (IC-2000, LocTite 380). Be sure to clean the surfaces, scuff them up a little, and clean up any squeeze out when you press the parts together.

    You may also want to glue your bumper to the valve to prolong its life.

    Edit: Looks like OPBN beat me to it.


    -Nathan
    Last edited by nak81783; 07-19-2013 at 07:45 AM. Reason: See previous response by OPBN
    XT00380
    Last of the Salzburg Clan

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    4,508
    Quote Originally Posted by nak81783 View Post
    Edit: Looks like OPBN beat me to it.
    -Nathan
    Just call me QuickDraw!

  5. #5
    Sounds like I'm on the right path. The ULT and shims aspect threw me off. I'm headed out with it tomorrow and can deal with it between games. With the addition of the ULT do I need to worry about adjustments to the LVL 10 ( shims and such)?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    4,508
    Quote Originally Posted by Mic0157 View Post
    Sounds like I'm on the right path. The ULT and shims aspect threw me off. I'm headed out with it tomorrow and can deal with it between games. With the addition of the ULT do I need to worry about adjustments to the LVL 10 ( shims and such)?
    Not unless it's giving you issues. IIRC, the L10 manual says to fire off about 1k shots after installing to get it broken in properly and then retune if necessary. Is this a new marker/valve? or used?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    DeWitt, MI
    Posts
    399
    Follow post #2168 in the linked thread below to tune your Level 10. The printed and CD instructions are obsolete. Most setups don't require shims.

    http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...read-**/page73

    To answer your question, theoretically, switching to a ULT shouldn't affect the Level 10 as the dump chamber still sees the same pressure regardless of on/off type.

    Edit: Can't type fast enough on iPhone to beat QuickDraw.


    -Nathan
    Last edited by nak81783; 07-19-2013 at 09:30 AM. Reason: That's twice now! I'm done!

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    4,508
    Quote Originally Posted by nak81783 View Post
    Foll
    Edit: Can't type fast enough on iPhone to beat QuickDraw.


    -Nathan
    How long does it take to type" that's what she said"?

  9. #9
    I recently acquired the marker, and assume most items to have been worn in.

    Hey, I saw somplace elses that simply lubing the on/off might be the solution too. Either way, you've given me a couple of things to look at.

    And this is all coming from a tank putting out an unknown pressure directly into the valve. I know, high pressure = better for these markers, but I don't know how to test that. Ideas?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    DeWitt, MI
    Posts
    399
    Eh, if you have a preset tank, and it was running the std on/off OK, it's probably not the issue. I was more concerned with if the issue is sporadic (chuff, chuff, shoot, chuff, shoot) or continuous once it happens (shoot, shoot, chuff, chuff, chuff x infinity). Also, I was more concerned with a limp trigger or some resistance on the trigger (may be hard to tell with a ULT) when the issue is present. And if "chuff" should be replaced with "nothing".

    Hopefully, some simple tuning will solve the issue. If not, you know where we're at.


    -Nathan

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    3,175
    Quote Originally Posted by Mic0157 View Post
    I recently acquired the marker, and assume most items to have been worn in.

    Hey, I saw somplace elses that simply lubing the on/off might be the solution too. Either way, you've given me a couple of things to look at.

    And this is all coming from a tank putting out an unknown pressure directly into the valve. I know, high pressure = better for these markers, but I don't know how to test that. Ideas?
    Definitely approach all of the trouble shooting tips with the understanding that mags like oil. If you haven't shot 3-4 drops of oil through the ASA (without the barrel) yet, that is a better start.

    air + oil = happy-mag

  12. #12
    Okay I got the sear catching but it's on full auto when I pull the trigger? Ideas?

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    449
    Quote Originally Posted by Mic0157 View Post
    Okay I got the sear catching but it's on full auto when I pull the trigger? Ideas?
    Sounds like too short on/off pin or badly adjusted sear.

  14. #14
    What's odd is that I have it back to its original configuration. I took the new stuff out and put the old stuff in and it's still acting up. Could replacing some of the o-rings in the valve have any affect? And I oiled the on/off before use.

    I'm perplexed.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Whistler, BC
    Posts
    73
    Are both on-off top o-rings in there?

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by mike780 View Post
    Are both on-off top o-rings in there?
    There are the 2 rings on the on/off but is there supposed to be more on top of the on/off when you push it into place?

    That might be a problem.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    DeWitt, MI
    Posts
    399
    To get your std on/off working right, it should look like the diagram in the manual linked below. I like this one, because it shows a Level 7 and Level 10 setup. Scroll down a ways in the manual to get to the diagram.

    http://www.airgundesignsusa.com/down...One.Manual.pdf

    If the link doesn't work, it's the RT ULE manual on airgun.com>tech support>manuals and diagrams

    It's been years since I had a ULT, but the only difference from a RT on/off that I remember is a smaller internal shaft oring, and you can use shims in between the halves to adjust it, as OPBN recommended earlier. If the ULT goes full auto, you need to remove shims. Not sure why your RT on/off would go full auto, unless it's not assembled per the diagram linked above or there are bad orings on it.


    -Nathan

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Whistler, BC
    Posts
    73
    Never mind- I blanked out for a second and was thinking RT on/off... There should just be the three o-rings visible on your ULT when it's assembled- one on each half and one at the top of the pin (and when you take the halves apart a fourth, tiny o-ring inside around the pin).

  19. #19
    Okay, still having problems. Question: I've read 2 places that there are supposed to be 2 o-rings that sit on top of the on / off. Are these two o-rings different than the 2 that come on the on / off valve (the diagram in the manual does not show any on top of the on/off) ? I have a new x-valve parts kit and if I need to put some in there, which ones? I have 2 on/off valves (new and old) and both have the same problem.

    I mean I kinda like an automatic mag, but it catches some and would give away my position.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    DeWitt, MI
    Posts
    399
    Disregard my statement about the ULT being the same as the RT on/off. I apologize. I shouldn't have commented, since I haven't had one in years.

    The RT on/off should have two orings at the top, as in the diagram.

    mike780's post jogged my memory, and I found some pics that appear to confirm it, although they were blurry pics. It looks like The ULT should have one oring snapped around the bottom half, one oring in between the halves around the pin shaft, one oring snapped around the top half, and one oring sitting in a counterbore at the top. Although I'd like others to confirm this, trying this setup, even if wrong, shouldn't hurt anything, especially since you're already having issues.

    "Top" can be relative to how you are holding the valve. However, in Mag World, "top" means the orings go in the hole first, before the brass.


    -Nathan
    Last edited by nak81783; 07-22-2013 at 10:28 AM.

  21. #21
    Another thought. I've read that mags like high pressure. Is it possible that my tank isn't putting out enough pressure to make the on/off cycle as it should? I've had a couple of cases where upon trying to remove the reg and the on/off pin is sticking out just enough to keep the reg from sliding back. Almost like there is resistance or friction between the pin and one of those tiny little o-rings. So more pressure could overcome the friction?? I'm still troubleshooting.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    DeWitt, MI
    Posts
    399
    As I stated earlier, if your tank ran the RT before, it's probably not the issue. However, to check the output, you'll need a gage (0-1200 or 1500 psi should work). Thread the gage into one of your ASA output ports, and gas up like you normally would. Simply read the gage. You'll need thread sealant of some sort. I use Teflon tape.

    It's normal for the pin to be sticking out when you degas. Always pull the trigger after removing air source. This will push the pin back up, so the valve will slide out.

    It might be time to post pictures. Lay everything out as you have it currently set up. Try to make the picture's layout look like how AGD lays it out in the diagrams, so we can tell how you have everything installed.


    -Nathan

  23. #23
    I'll get pictures up this evening.

  24. #24

  25. #25

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    PHX, AZ
    Posts
    1,414
    looks like tha edge of your sear is a lil rounded...and is probably the reason the sear is not catching the bolt? do you have another sear?

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    DeWitt, MI
    Posts
    399
    1. Did you ever confirm the credit card thickness gap between the back of the trigger and the trigger rod when the marker is pressurized?

    2. Is the rail bushing in place? This is a brass cylinder that press fits into the back of the rail that the field strip screw goes through.

    3. Does it go full auto when you hold the trigger back FIRMLY? Does this happen with the RT on/off and the ULT on/off?

    4. The rounded sear could be an issue of its own, but if it's going full auto with the trigger firmly held back, doesn't that suggest something else is goin on?

    Let's separate the assembly process by on/off type.

    ULT on/off:
    1. Look into the on/off hole on the valve with a flashlight. Make sure there are no orings at the bottom of the hole.

    2. Slide in the assembly as you have it pictured. Small oring in external counterbore at top of ULT. Larger oring snapped around top of ULT. Small oring around the shaft inside the ULT. No shims. Larger oring snapped around the bottom of the ULT. Thread together, and install.

    3. Adjust with shims as OPBN stated earlier.

    4. Report back with any issues specific to the ULT.

    The ULT installation process is different than what is seen in the previously linked diagram.

    RT on/off:
    1. Look into the on/off hole on the valve with a flashlight. Make sure there are no orings at the bottom of the hole.

    2. Install a larger oring into the bottom of the on/off hole in the valve. This oring should fit snugly against the diameter of the on/off hole.

    3. Install a smaller oring into the bottom of the on/off hole in the valve. This oring should fit snugly against the inner diameter of the oring you installed in step 2.

    4. Make sure there is a smaller oring inside the on/off around the pin shaft.

    5. Make sure there is an oring snapped around the bottom half of the on/off.

    6. Thread halves together. Insert pin. Install assembly into on/off hole in the valve.

    7. Report back with any issues specific to the RT on/off

    The RT on/off installation process should resemble what is seen in the previously linked diagram.

    I hope this doesn't come off as me talking down to you, but I just want to be absolutely clear of what is required. I also want to separate the issues with the different on/off's, because I'm having a little difficulty following your replies.

    Good luck.


    -Nathan

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    4,508
    Quote Originally Posted by nak81783 View Post
    1. Did you ever confirm the credit card thickness gap between the back of the trigger and the trigger rod when the marker is pressurized?
    Also keep in mind that as you are adding/removing shims in the ULT, you may have to readjust the sear rod. Same goes with changing the on/offs. After any fiddling with the odn/offs, check the gap to insure it isnt too much or too little. The sear rod should not rest again the back of the tirgger when aired up. Nor should it be too far back.

    It's always a good think to know the output pressure on your tank reg. What type is it? A pic of it as well may help. IIRC, werent some of these color coded?

    Make sure everything is oiled. Also, the field strip screw should only be finger tight. I have a couple of Mags where I have to air up upon assembly and adjust them so that they are correctly tightened. Too loose can often be as bad as too tight.

    Nathan has mentioned the O-rings inside the on/off. To be honest, I have never actually had to take an on/off apart other than a ULT to change shims. If the RT worked before, it should be ok still, but if it makes you feel better check them.

    Make sure everything is oiled.

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    DeWitt, MI
    Posts
    399
    Quote Originally Posted by OPBN View Post
    Also keep in mind that as you are adding/removing shims in the ULT, you may have to readjust the sear rod. Same goes with changing the on/offs. After any fiddling with the odn/offs, check the gap to insure it isnt too much or too little.
    I've often wondered about this. Let's take a little tangent while we wait for the OP to reply.

    First, I agree the gap has to be there, or the marker may not complete a full cycle. However, since the chamber is pressurized (pushing on the top of the pin), and the bottom of the pin is at ambient pressure, wouldn't the pin continue to push down until it hit a positive stop (back of sear) regardless of on/off type? If so, I would argue that trigger rod adjustment is more to accommodate the body/rail/trigger frame stack up than a different on/off type.

    I am assuming that once the marker is pressurized, the brass and oring components of the on/off do not float due to the comstant pressure at the top of the on/off. In other words the on/off stays seated against the bottom of the body ID.

    Let me know if I'm missing something.

    The only time I've ever adjusted my trigger rod was on my X-Mag. I set the e-mode trigger how I wanted it, but then the trigger rod was hitting the back of it. I had to shorten it .010 or 015" to stop that from happening. It still shoots fine in mech and hybrid modes.


    -Nathan

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    PHX, AZ
    Posts
    1,414
    Quote Originally Posted by Mic0157 View Post
    Okay I got the sear catching but it's on full auto when I pull the trigger? Ideas?
    check your reg pin assembly...teflon tape, dirt, or just bad o-rings can cause your mag mag to rapid fire/go full auto as well.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •