Lack of accuracy is what makes paintball the game it is.

[Patron God of Pirates]

There are thousands of threads all over the interwebs and probably a few hundred here on AO talking about how to get more accuracy out of our friend the paintball. I'm as big an offender as most. I have dozens of barrels, two insert kits, and an APEX tip. A thread here about under boring (which was fascinating but above my pay grade) got me to thinking:

Would dead on balls accurate paintball be any fun?
My answer, no. But that is a matter of personal preference. I happen to like the pulse pounding game of movement, communication, and angle hunting that is paintball. I know allot of folks who started out expecting it to be a game of hiding, creeping, and sniping. Those people spent allot of time alone in the woods way out of range before either getting the hang of real paintball, or quitting.

For me, if that sniper style worked, if you could consistently long ball somebody with a single shot from the edge of paint break range, well that would stink. Every once and awhile I get hit by a long ball from deepest darkest somewhere. It is by far the least satisfying way to get out. I would rather be lit up point blank making a desperate dash for the flag. No matter how "milsim" your marker is, paintball will never effectively "simmil".

What is more exiting?:
Two Hellcats thatch weaving against a Zero. One pilot putting it all on the line so his wing man has a chance to put the Zero in his cross hairs.
or
An F-22 getting a first look, first shot, first kill from over the horizon on some hapless Mig 29.

Sure the later may be cooler. But I would rather watch the former. What say you AO?

[cockerpunk]

i agree. so much of what paintball is, as a game, is a band aide for terrible technology. and going back, we could fix all of those issues, but the game that resulted would be very very very different. the spherical ball is a dumb design. but because we have a lightweight spherical ball, that has very limited range and accuracy, we play on small fields, very close to each other. there is a pretty trainwrecked thread on simonized where i talk about a few more examples, such as vertical feed.

it comes down to, like many things in life, technical perfection vs fun.

[Flatliner333]

I'm with you on this. But each to his own on style of play. Although it wouldnt really bother me if I was sniped out I do prefer a more balls to the wall style of play. I have yet to play any senarios so I have not incountered any snipers or even seen a first strike round. That being said I do like to know who and where I am being shot at from.

[OPBN]

Not totally on topic, but one time I was with a group of guys and we were deciding which way to go during a big game. One of the guys asked me where the opposition was and I pointed with my marker towards a ridge where a path went down to a group of people on the other team. As I pointed, the marker fired a shot and one went perfectly arcing until it pretty much came down in the center of the path of the other side. I started to turn around and talk to the other players with me when someone starts laughing and pointing towards the ridge. Some guy is walking up the ridge with hands up and a big splat of paint in the middle of his mask. Apparently, my errant shot from probably 200 ft away found some unlucky dude and gog'd him as he was getting ready to try and take the ridge. When he got to the top he saw how far way we were and just started shaking his head and walking towards the respawn. Laughed for probably a good 10 minutes on that one.

Regarding accuracy, I agree and disagree. As with any activity, different styles move in and out of fashion to a degree. I actually thought FSR's would have been much more of a game changer than they have been, but they do seem to be getting more of a toehold on things. Do I want to sit around in a ghillie peeing down my leg as I sit in a bunch of brush waiting for the ultimate one shot/one kill? No, as I don't have that sort of patience. But there are definitely days that I get frustrated with watching my shots fly out 60 feet on target to eliminate another player and then do something that borderlines seems to defy physics and shoot off into a direction that I never intended it to go. However, I am not ready to invest $1200+ in a DAM setup shooting $.75/round FSR's either.

[nak81783]

I don't think more accuracy would change the game at all, therefore I don't care if it ever comes about, nor would I be willing to pay more for more accuracy than I have now.

The reason I don't think accuracy would change the game is because firearms are way more accurate than paintball guns, and the shots hit to shots fired ratio is still extremely low in combat - run & gun, stressful, adrenaline situations. The well trained may have a higher hit rate, but they're using projectiles going thousands of feet per second with ballistic coefficients far superior to a ball.

I wouldn't want to get hit with a paintball going 3000fps, and how many of us actually have the time to learn to shoot something as accurately as it is capable, not to mention the targets are often moving, which adds a further degree of difficulty.

All that said, we'd all probably be out there spraying just as many more expensive/more accurate paintballs as we do the ones we have now.

[Patron God of Pirates]

All that said, we'd all probably be out there spraying just as many more expensive/more accurate paintballs as we do the ones we have now.

I disagree only because I think that if everyone was playing with highly accurate equipment those run and gun situations would not occur with any frequency. The ability to long ball, and the fear of being long balled would paralyze the game. I have a nightmare vision of 6 hour games just thinking about it.

So, I lined up the sights, applied a fair amount of holdover, and let a first strike round fly.

I could see this being fun if I were one of a handful of people using FS rounds. If everyone was rocking those FS rounds this scenario would never have taken place.

[nak81783]

I like this thread. Good idea to start it.

The only ways to get more distance is more speed or a better ballistic coefficient. Our current safety standards won't allow more speed.

I hate to do this, but I have to bring up precision vs. accuracy, but only because this thread is hypothetically discussing increased precision in the game we all love.

That said, even is paintballs were 100% precise, I still think there would be run & gun, because it's up to the shooter to provide the accuracy. A projectile's trajectory at 300fps is extremely curved. Furthermore, the lead for even a human sprint speed is considerable. Add that into an unknown distance, and I think we'd still have an accuracy by volume game.

For comparison, shooting a .22LR at 200 yards is said to be like shooting a .308 at 700+yards. It's all based on models of scale. Paintball (even with extreme precision) would be the same, because so many variables are still the responsibility of the shooter.

By the way, your quotes are wrong above.

[uv_halo]

I could see this being fun if I were one of a handful of people using FS rounds. If everyone was rocking those FS rounds this scenario would never have taken place.

True but, what makes the game challenging is that FS rounds force folks to choose low capacity, for long range and better accuracy, or, high capacity for reduced range and reduced accuracy. Successful application of either of these rounds require the appropriate tactics.

[uv_halo]

Since you asked... I disagree.

My heart gets pounding when I successfully, and stealthily flank a group of folks and I one-shot them out, one at a time. This requires accuracy and a bit of distance/noise reduction to prevent alerting other members in the group.

I also enjoy successfully hiding and hitting someone with them not knowing anything about where it came from (effectively slowing down a group).

My favorite elimination:

At Living Legends 4, Not long after the start of a break, an individual wearing jeans, a tank top (maybe not even a pod pack), carrying an A5, and who must have sprinted the majority of the quarter mile distance to get to us (judging by how much earlier he got to us than the rest of his team) stopped at the top of a rise overlooking us and stood there, in the open with his A5 hanging at his side. He appeared to be looking at us in the hyperball field as if he was trying to figrure out which bunker to bump up to or, to wait for the rest of his team. He was fairly far away and I wasn't sure if I could hit him. So, I lined up the sights, applied a fair amount of holdover, and let a first strike round fly. I saw it fly in a trajectory in-line with him and a moment or two later, he suddenly jerked his head downward towards his belly. He then looked over to the ref about 7yrds to his right (maybe to ask if he was out?), before angrily shaking his arms (and A5) turning around and walking back towards his base.

I could care less how my game play looks to other people. It's all about the relationship between myself and my opposition.

[Dark Side]

Would dead on balls accurate paintball be any fun?
My answer, no. But that is a matter of personal preference. I happen to like the pulse pounding game of movement, communication, and angle hunting that is paintball. I know allot of folks who started out expecting it to be a game of hiding, creeping, and sniping. Those people spent allot of time alone in the woods way out of range before either getting the hang of real paintball, or quitting.

I was really willing to give you a chance until the word "real". I ran a field in FL some time ago, and a good 8 out of 10 people would only play the woods fields. They weren't huge by any means, but you couldn't fire from one side and hit the other either. There are many different aspects of the game. Why does Woodsball, ie: Recball which is the bread and butter of most fields not be considered "real"? It uses many of the same concepts that Speedball does. So what if the game rely more on stealth and guile than angles? You still have to hit what you aim at to get the other guys out.

For me, if that sniper style worked, if you could consistently long ball somebody with a single shot from the edge of paint break range, well that would stink. Every once and awhile I get hit by a long ball from deepest darkest somewhere. It is by far the least satisfying way to get out. I would rather be lit up point blank making a desperate dash for the flag. No matter how "milsim" your marker is, paintball will never effectively "simmil".

Actually, taking my time to line up that impossible shot is very fulfilling and disappearing and flanking a group by myself feels incredible. Airsoft however has taken over the milsim idea quite well as SpecOps and OpsGear paintball products are not so common.

What is more exiting?:
Two Hellcats thatch weaving against a Zero. One pilot putting it all on the line so his wing man has a chance to put the Zero in his cross hairs.
or
An F-22 getting a first look, first shot, first kill from over the horizon on some hapless Mig 29.

Sure the later may be cooler. But I would rather watch the former. What say you AO?

All I see here is an argument against trees.

[OPBN]

Much like the confusion/misuse of the term accuracy, I think there is a broad misuse of term sniper in paintball. I would venture a guess that what most people consider "sniper" style of play, I would actually classify as "ambush" style. Sneaking up behind people, flanking them etc and ambushing them is considerably different than digging in 100 yards from the action with your ghuilie suit hiding under a shrub. All woodsball isnt sniping. You can still play balls out woodsball, we usually do. I think that was PGoPs use of the term "real" was aimed at, not woodsball in general.

[nak81783]

Much like the confusion/misuse of the term accuracy, I think there is a broad misuse of term sniper in paintball. I would venture a guess that what most people consider "sniper" style of play, I would actually classify as "ambush" style. Sneaking up behind people, flanking them etc and ambushing them is considerably different than digging in 100 yards from the action with your ghuilie suit hiding under a shrub. All woodsball isnt sniping. You can still play balls out woodsball, we usually do. I think that was PGoPs use of the term "real" was aimed at, not woodsball in general.

Well said.

And to further the "ambush" vs. "sniper" mentality... Since we all use the same weight of paint at the same velocity (relatively, I understand their are .50 Cal paintballs and FSR's), we are all in the same arena. Compare that to the broad spectrum from a 9mm Luger (Parabellum, x19, however you know it) to a .338 Lapua, and I think that paints a pretty clear picture.

[Patron God of Pirates]

...

I had no intention of making a woodsball vs. speedball argument. When I used the term 'real' I meant only to say the way Paintball (woods, speed, X, or otherwise) is actually played vs. how (most) people envision it before playing. I myself play almost exclusively in the woods. I prefer the larger play space, varied cover, and ability to engage/disengage/reengage elsewhere. So yeah, most certainly was not trying to argue against trees. My only point is that (the largest contributing reason) ALL paintball is played the way it is played is because that is what works best. I understand that some people have lots of success and enjoyment playing the creep about and long ball technique. I would argue that not only are those people the exception to the rule, but that they are role players and if you built a whole team (say of 10) out of them they would get rolled. I would love to have someone on my team that could perform that roll effectively. I've been playing for 15 years and I've never met one.

I recently played with a guy who was playing pump against the likes of Axe's, Mini's etc. But his game was not to creep around and one time people from hiding. It was movement, communication, angles, and being very judicious about the shots he took.

[38super]

Interesting thread.

The lack of accuracy in paint ball isn't so much to do with the equipment or the projectiles; it has to do mostly with the players.

It goes without saying that paint balls are inherently inaccurate. Compared to real ammunition that's absolutely true but if we go into it with an understanding of the limitations and the ability to work within those boundaries, they are more than accurate enough.

For me, coming from an extensive background in competitive speed pistol shooting where accuracy is 50% of the equation, it was a difficult adjustment. But even so, I honestly have to shake my head sometimes when I watch people "shoot" their guns.

The three main variables as I see them are:
The inherent accuracy of the firing system, the inherent accuracy of the projectile, and the ability of the shooter.

Assuming that a paint-baller is using reasonable quality paint and a reasonable quality launching system (underbore, over bore....doesn't matter so long as it's consistent), we can expect a certain standard of average accuracy out of say, a 2000 round case of paint. So for argument's sake we'll just pick a number out of the air and say that we if clamped the gun in a stable machine rest and fired 2000 rounds at a target the size of a trash can lid 20 meters away, probably 1800 of them or 90 % of them will get the hit. It's a pretty big target. This is assuming it isn't massively humid or raining and there isn't a cross wind.

So a 90% hit ratio @ 20 meters is our standard. In fact, let's be generous and call it 80%.

Therefore, I have to wonder why I continually see guys who will expend hundreds of rounds at distances of 20 meters or less to get one hit....IF they get the hit at all. And I see this all the time. The guy may have the fastest gun on the planet and he can lay down ropes of money...err...paint just like a squad machine gun. But watch what happens to his muzzle as he's walking the dickens out of that trigger; it's wandering all over the place and he's shooting a group the size of a building. Mathematically, firing a two hundred round hopper at a target twenty meters away, even it that target is popping in and out from cover, should get a fairly large number of hits.

Personally I prefer not to play the accuracy-by-volume way. It's too expensive and it's just not as much fun for me. I prefer to shoot as accurately as possible within the design parameters of the firing system and the projectiles being used. I get more satisfaction out of a well-placed shot than I do out of an almost accidental hit that results from a whole hpper fired on one target. I will certainly cluster short salvos of fire on a target in order to take advantage of the averaging factor, but if I can't get the hit it's usually because I lack a suitable position to deliver it, not because I don't know how to fire an accurate shot on demand.

I've often wondered if round limits would change the way the various types of games are played. I mean, if you had to walk onto the field with only what you can carry in your hopper, you'd have to start focusing more on the tactical problem of flanking and out-maneuvering your opponent, wouldn't you? Of course, paint ball field owners would ever go for that. They wouldn't make any money.

[Patron God of Pirates]

Interesting thread.
I will certainly cluster short salvos of fire on a target in order to take advantage of the averaging factor, but if I can't get the hit it's usually because I lack a suitable position to deliver it, not because I don't know how to fire an accurate shot on demand.

This is an excellent description of what being "accurate" in paintball means. Short salvos (3-6 rounds in my book) fired rapidly over a relatively short distance. 20 meters being a fairly standard engagement distance playing in the woods. Although I suspect that allot of the spray painting you are witnessing has little to do with actually attempting to hit a target and more to do with facilitating movement (and sometimes just showing off).

PS- I love Hopper Ball.

[athomas]

I think accuracy in a paintball gun would be fantastic. An accurate ball still doesn't make an accurate shot. The player has to be accurate as well. An accurate ball just takes an unknown out of the equation. That would reward good players more than those who are not. As it stands, any player that points a gun down field and just pulls the trigger has a random chance at hitting a target because the balls hit in a random pattern. A player that accurately aims has a slightly better chance but it is still somewhat random given that the paintball is not going to go exactly where you aim it.

Now, given that paintballs have a finite distance that they operate within, you have to be pretty good at judging air movement and elevation even if they went exactly where they were aimed. It wouldn't make that person suddenly invincible from anywhere in the field, but at least anyone who practiced would be better than someone who didn't.

There is nothing more frustrating in the sport of paintball than sneaking up on your opponent, taking a perfect shot from 30ft away and having the shot miss by 3 feet due to a bad ball, and then having that same person turn and hold the trigger and spray a 10 ft area around you without moving his marker and eliminating you with an errant ball.

[38super]

Although I suspect that allot of the spray painting you are witnessing has little to do with actually attempting to hit a target and more to do with facilitating movement (and sometimes just showing off).

PS- I love Hopper Ball.

Yes, some of them do know how to bring suppression fire. Still, it doesn't have to be a steady stream of paint to keep someone's head down while your flanker moves up. I've also seen many people "suppressing" a tree with no one hiding behind it. Must be nice to have money.

Anyway, just listen to the typical chatter in the staging area. Mostly it's about how fast their gun is, how sic it looks, how walkable the trigger is, blah blah blah. I almost never hear anyone say they can hit a grapefruit-sized target at 20 meters on demand with it. Most of them still think a longer barrel gives them more distance. Usually these are the same guys who later ask me, "how did you hit me through that knot-hole." Easy, I aimed.

I can say for certain that even with the limitations and wild variations we see in paint balls and paintball guns, it really does generally average out better if you can actually shoot. As athomas noted; it removes one variable