One for the Pros to venture forth on. XMT Body not getting into the rhythm.

[XtraKargo]

Hey all,

So I have recently gotten an XMT ULE with the Classic RT look, for an X-valve. When I had the Valve in the original AGD ULE body, it was a perfect, walkable, rhythm to the trigger. Once I dropped in the XMT Body, it catches on the return briefly. Then resets, and is able to fire again.

SOOOOOO, I tried my classic valve from a Minimag. Shoots fantastic in the XMT Body. Then I had to test the X-Valve and finally gotten it back to perfection in the AGD ULE with no shims in the LVL10 using a 1 carrier, gold spring and lubing everything once again. I have the Thumb screw finger tight only (in the AGD ULE I would put the 1/4 turn on it) A mag whisperer once told me to try adjusting the Thumb screw slightly with different aftermarket parts. No luck here.

So here is a short Video. And my open mind looking for insight. Thanks folks.

[BigEvil]

Do you have the correct front frame screw and rail bushing in there? Also, try tightening up the thumbscrew with an allen wrench.

[XtraKargo]

Same screw that came from the AGD ULE body and the bushing is there as well.

If I tighten the thumbscrew it is the same deal.

(By the by - you were the Mag whisperer, thanks)

[need4reebs]

with the body off the rail try dropping the bolt into the body to see if it will fit into the breech...you might have a bur somewhere around the breech...a lil needle file and a few minutes should take of that if you have a bur.

[XtraKargo]

with the body off the rail try dropping the bolt into the body to see if it will fit into the breech...you might have a bur somewhere around the breech...a lil needle file and a few minutes should take of that if you have a bur.

Drops in clean. I even removed the detents during the video, they shown some where but the body is clean inside.

[nak81783]

When you say it catches on the return, do you literally mean the bolt is slow to spring back, or do you mean it just recharges slowly?

If the distance from the center of the rear field strip screw to the bolt spring seat inside the body is different (it can vary significantly even from one AGD body to another), you may need to tune the Level 10 to that particular body. Perhaps the distance is longer, so you need a longer spring than the gold one you indicated you are using. Are you using the largest carrier that doesn't leak? If not, this hypothesis holds more water, as bolt stick with a weak spring (for the longer distance anyway) is more likely.

Are you using a ULT? That may need to be tuned for a specific body as well. Slowly add shims to see if that helps.

I haven't done a pneumag (yet). Is the ULT required to help it cycle at a lower lpr setting?

[XtraKargo]

It is strange, it returns quickly, then pauses for a short period, and clicks into place.

There isn't a ULT involved, but it is a pneumatic trigger. Very light trigger pull and easily walkable.

I will double check my carrier to O-ring again for leaks. Just to be certain.

[BigEvil]

Crank your velocity way up and keep firing it. See if it goes away after a while and then lower your velocity to normal. Ive seen similar issues on new Xmag breeches. You would see some wear on the inside where the bolt would rub slightly. Once you saw where it was rubbing, you could polish it out with some emery cloth.

[nak81783]

What is the bottom wall thickness of the working vs. non-working bodies?

What length on/off pin are you using? If .750", humor me, and try a .712" if you have one.

Edit: I should say I don't expect the shorter pin to fix the issue, although if it does great. I would rather like to know if it gives a different result - barrel leak, bolt never resets, etc. On the rare chance that you have a .765" pin, try that one too, and let us know what it does.

[XtraKargo]

Now I don't have a set of digital calipers, but my old ones show it as just shy 1/16th, and they both are the same, the calipers slides right off of one and onto the other. With the carrier I stepped up to 1.5 and it leaked so I went back to a 1. (granted this is a fresh o-ring to, in my troubleshooting on my own, I figured why not, to see what happens without shims and where I end up on carriers. really was good refresher on the LVL10 also.) I would venture to say this one is a .750 since it just touches the 3/4 mark. I will have to pull my Retro Valve out of storage to see if it is different or not.

With the Velocity turned all the way up it still sticks, and it appears to rub on the upper portion of the body where the outer rim of the bolt pushes against the top (that is the only part that looks scored, but mildly so, a darker grey color). The breech still looks clean. I wondered about the LVL7 myself, if it would make a difference.

[nak81783]

Crank your velocity way up and keep firing it. See if it goes away after a while and then lower your velocity to normal. Ive seen similar issues on new Xmag breeches. You would see some wear on the inside where the bolt would rub slightly. Once you saw where it was rubbing, you could polish it out with some emery cloth.

Would it be advantageous to do this with a Level 7, if available, to really beat things into submission?

[XtraKargo]

Also with that guy turned up it gets LOUD! HA

And just for good measure I tried the longer spring.



With the velocity turned up I blew out my foamy, so I will get the joy of replacing it later as well.

[nak81783]

Is the rubbing along the entire stroke, beginning only, end only?

Oh and to clarify, when you put your classic valve on the XMT body, was all that still the pneumag rig, or did you put the XMT body on a standard Mag?

I'll do some tinkering tonight to see if anything else comes to mind. Would still like to know what a different pin length does if you can find one.

I just blew my first foamie off (that I can remember) recently when tinkering with RT effect. Loctite Ultra Gel seems to be working well. Works well on the bumpers too. It's cheaper and easier to find than Loc-Tite 380 or IC-2000, but it has the same rubber toughened, impact resistance properties. I used a dental pick to scrape off the old adhesive. It snaps off in flakes. I also then scuffed up the parent metal and cleaned it with wifey's nail polish remover. Seems to be holding well.

Edit: My X-Mag and ULE bodies have rub marks inside the top of the body near the spring seat. Just an FYI, as the degree to which your marker is rubbing may be different.

[XtraKargo]

Crank your velocity way up and keep firing it. See if it goes away after a while and then lower your velocity to normal. Ive seen similar issues on new Xmag breeches. You would see some wear on the inside where the bolt would rub slightly. Once you saw where it was rubbing, you could polish it out with some emery cloth.

How many shots you thinking, cause eventually my wife will want to shoot me with it from all the racket...

[XtraKargo]

Here goes.


X valve with LVL 7 froze. Not a single shot.

Classic with the lvl10. Cycled fine.

Bolts left alone from here on out.

Classic with lvl10 and rt on off. Back to the same as the video. Cycles and pauses before reseting.

X valve with level7 and reactor on off (I don't think I have a stock On/Off to the classic, and this dropped right in) leaked down the barrel but cycled as fine. Almost as fast as I could pull a mech trigger.

[nak81783]

What are the lengths of the RT and Reactor pins? It's OK if you don't have calipers. Just lay them side by side, and if there is any difference whatsoever, tell us which is longer how many Level 10 shims it takes to make up the difference in length.

Also, on the RT pin, what's the length of the head (as closely as you can measure with whatever measurement tool you have)?

Oh, and I can't get the video to work. It just takes me to some pictures on photobucket. I tried it on my iPhone and two computers.

[XtraKargo]

What are the lengths of the RT and Reactor pins? It's OK if you don't have calipers. Just lay them side by side, and if there is any difference whatsoever, tell us which is longer how many Level 10 shims it takes to make up the difference in length.

Also, on the RT pin, what's the length of the head (as closely as you can measure with whatever measurement tool you have)?

Oh, and I can't get the video to work. It just takes me to some pictures on photobucket. I tried it on my iPhone and two computers.

Looks to be the same to me.

[OPBN]

Looks to be the same to me.

Is it just me or does the pin on the left look bent?

[nak81783]

I'm guessing that's an optical illusion. Plus, it cycled in the Classic valve, which is exerting less force than the X-Valve. I would think any binding from a slight bend wouldn't have worked in the Classic valve.

Open up the two halves of the RT on/off assembly. Anything inside that shouldn't be?

[Ando]

X valve with LVL 7 froze. Not a single shot.

Classic with the lvl10. Cycled fine.

Bolts left alone from here on out.

Classic with lvl10 and rt on off. Back to the same as the video. Cycles and pauses before reseting.

X valve with level7 and reactor on off (I don't think I have a stock On/Off to the classic, and this dropped right in) leaked down the barrel but cycled as fine. Almost as fast as I could pull a mech trigger.

You've basically narrowed it down to your RT on/off here. Do you have a spare or a rebuild kit for the orings?

Edit:

I would also retune the lvl10 with a new carrier oring on GP. You might have a bad oring causing you to use a smaller carrier cause everything you're describing with the bolt hanging up on the return is caused by a tight carrier. Remember all the basics...no shims installed, use the gold spring, stock on/off and a mech frame when tuning. Install the largest carrier that doesn't leak. If you're still having reset issues, then add shims to compensate. (I haven't read every post but you've already tried shims right)?

Originally yes, but to isolate if there was any issues with pneu setup we moved the XMT and the XValve to Minimag Rail and a standard sear.

Are you using a mech frame or are you still using the pneumatic frame when doing all this troubleshooting?

Good old acronym. K.I.S.S. = Keep It Simple Stupid

Take every variable out of the equation and then run your tests.

And just for good measure I tried the longer spring.

Hmm...are you using the stock silver spring as is?

If so....don't. They weren't mention to be used as is, will cause you more issues and def make you shoot hot.

[XtraKargo]

You've basically narrowed it down to your RT on/off here. Do you have a spare or a rebuild kit for the orings?

Edit:

I would also retune the lvl10 with a new carrier oring on GP. You might have a bad oring causing you to use a smaller carrier cause everything you're describing with the bolt hanging up on the return is caused by a tight carrier. Remember all the basics...no shims installed, use the gold spring, stock on/off and a mech frame when tuning. Install the largest carrier that doesn't leak. If you're still having reset issues, then add shims to compensate. (I haven't read every post but you've already tried shims right)? changed the O ring,and I read one post in the LVL10 guide when tuning not to mess with the shims, they could create more issues.

Here is the link i used.

https://www.automags.org/forums/showt...97#post2828797

Now I don't have a set of digital calipers, but my old ones show it as just shy 1/16th, and they both are the same, the calipers slides right off of one and onto the other. With the carrier I stepped up to 1.5 and it leaked so I went back to a 1. (granted this is a fresh o-ring to, in my troubleshooting on my own, I figured why not, to see what happens without shims and where I end up on carriers. really was good refresher on the LVL10 also.) I would venture to say this one is a .750 since it just touches the 3/4 mark. I will have to pull my Retro Valve out of storage to see if it is different or not.

With the Velocity turned all the way up it still sticks, and it appears to rub on the upper portion of the body where the outer rim of the bolt pushes against the top (that is the only part that looks scored, but mildly so, a darker grey color). The breech still looks clean. I wondered about the LVL7 myself, if it would make a difference.

Are you using a mech frame or are you still using the pneumatic frame when doing all this troubleshooting? the pneumag is my primary and was where it all began for testing purposes we moved back to a Minimag I had setup for my wife, which now I realize could have been tuned a little better in the sear and corrected that Not that she would notice, but hey, why not.

Good old acronym. K.I.S.S. = Keep It Simple Stupid

Take every variable out of the equation and then run your tests.


Hmm...are you using the stock silver spring as is?the silver one was used briefly at higher velocities to try and force the bolt down the body I was using one in my primary for a while, to try and be softer on paint (but I think in further study of the LVL 10 and how it should be set up that isn't necessary.)

If so....don't. They weren't mention to be used as is, will cause you more issues and def make you shoot hot.

Thanks Ando!

[XtraKargo]

It seems to lean some when stood on end. Maybe it is but it does seem to line up and do the job.

[XtraKargo]

The cause of the bent pin may be from my Pneu and when I release the Valve. I have to unscrew the body as well as the valve then push the pin the rest of the way.

The Retro wouldn't have that issue.

[XtraKargo]

On a Pneu without air to trip the Pneu the pin remains down when the marker is degassed.
On trick I have been doing is as I am degassing flicking the trigger since and it pushes the pin back up. Not always reliably thou.

[XtraKargo]

The Retro Valve gives a firm trigger now but no shots fired. The pin is not getting caught now. (For a test I reversed the pin and it fires sporadically- but the bolt moves fine, so I put it back correctly with a urethane O ring instead of the Teflon to test, giving the firm trigger)

The Retro has a single O ring for the top of the on/off. The Classic and X have an inner and outer. If that makes a difference.

[nak81783]

Running out of ideas. But one more thing to try for now. Wear adequate personal protection equipment.

Using X-Valve, Level 10 (make sure pressure is turned up high enough to make it work), good RT on/off assembly and pin, Minimag rail, and standard sear, put the marker together and air up. Unscrew both field strip screws 1/8 turn. Grasp the body firmly with one hand while holding firmly onto the grip frame with the other hand. While repeatedly pulling the trigger, rock the body in multiple directions and rotations. Use some force, but you're not looking to rip the body off the rail. Report what happens.

Unscrew both screws another 1/8 turn. Report what happens.

Repeat until the screws are, at most (in my opinion), 1/2 turn from how you had it originally snugly assembled.

I'm thinking a total of 1/2 turn will be enough to loosen things up but not let things come apart. Feel this out. The decision on how far to go is yours.

All I can think of is there is some interaction with the XMT body and the difference between the on/off bottom (RT vs. Classic) that is causing the binding. RT on/off bottom is radiused to match the diameter of the valve in that area. Classic on/off bottom is flat (assuming Reactor on/off is the same).

I know this was touched upon at the beginning of the thread, but I'm hoping the contorting of the body while repeatedly pulling the trigger will let you deduce where the binding is occurring. Also, by how far you have to unthread the screws and force the body, it will give a general indication of how bad the binding is.

Good luck.

[OPBN]

Have to admit, I haven't a clue at this point. (not that I did to begin with) Just not sure how the on/off could be the issue unless it has something to do, as suggested earlier, with pin length. Maybe worth seeing if XMT or BE would be willing to take a look at it to see what the deal is.

[XtraKargo]

Running out of ideas. But one more thing to try for now. Wear adequate personal protection equipment.

Using X-Valve, Level 10 (make sure pressure is turned up high enough to make it work), good RT on/off assembly and pin, Minimag rail, and standard sear, put the marker together and air up. Unscrew both field strip screws 1/8 turn. Grasp the body firmly with one hand while holding firmly onto the grip frame with the other hand. While repeatedly pulling the trigger, rock the body in multiple directions and rotations. Use some force, but you're not looking to rip the body off the rail. Report what happens.

Unscrew both screws another 1/8 turn. Report what happens.

Repeat until the screws are, at most (in my opinion), 1/2 turn from how you had it originally snugly assembled.

I'm thinking a total of 1/2 turn will be enough to loosen things up but not let things come apart. Feel this out. The decision on how far to go is yours.

All I can think of is there is some interaction with the XMT body and the difference between the on/off bottom (RT vs. Classic) that is causing the binding. RT on/off bottom is radiused to match the diameter of the valve in that area. Classic on/off bottom is flat (assuming Reactor on/off is the same).

I know this was touched upon at the beginning of the thread, but I'm hoping the contorting of the body while repeatedly pulling the trigger will let you deduce where the binding is occurring. Also, by how far you have to unthread the screws and force the body, it will give a general indication of how bad the binding is.

Good luck.

So to confirm my findings (or lack there of) I took the XValve and tuned it in the Minimag, as if it were stock, and got it firing without leaks with the good on/off. removed Minimag body, set the XMT Body. Fired a single shot. froze with trigger pressure, began S L O W L Y backing out the two screws once I reached a full half turn out, and trying to move the valve or the body, with no result I degassed, pulled the trigger, the pin released, confirmed the play in the body and the valve. Gassed it back up, and it still did not fire. Nothing was removed completely, only the two screws were loosened, and the trigger was firm again.

I am stumped yet again...

edit: I know sometimes when there is a LVL 10 issue there has been requests to poke the bolt with a squeegee - made no difference. I just remembered doing this also during the loose body test.

[Ando]

I'll try my Mag-Fu skills.

Main problem is the xvalve not working in the XMT body right?

And your using a pneumatic frame?

[XtraKargo]

Originally yes, but to isolate if there was any issues with pneu setup we moved the XMT and the XValve to Minimag Rail and a standard sear.