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Thread: One for the Pros to venture forth on. XMT Body not getting into the rhythm.

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by nak81783 View Post
    You're positive it was the good pin and on/off assembly? Yes sir, was working well in the marker I had assembled for the Retro Valve.

    If so:

    1. Do the same tests but with the Reactor on/off that you had in your Classic valve.Lights out for the wee ones, so this test will need to be done tomorrow. Will post up my findings

    2. I know you slip fit the bolt to make sure there were no burrs, but try assembling the marker with the muzzle pointed up and without a bolt spring. When snugly assembled, tip the marker muzzle down. Does the bolt fall forward? May need to take out the bolt stem oring, so you don't get a false result from oring friction. This sounds interesting, and quiet. I will get started on this.
    Thanks, again. May not hear back from me tonight, but I will let you know my findings.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by nak81783 View Post

    2. I know you slip fit the bolt to make sure there were no burrs, but try assembling the marker with the muzzle pointed up and without a bolt spring. When snugly assembled, tip the marker muzzle down. Does the bolt fall forward? May need to take out the bolt stem oring, so you don't get a false result from oring friction.
    Yes it drops. No Spring, No O-Ring. X-Valve LVL10. Leaks air like an SOB thou....

  3. #63
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    Now on to the Reactor On/Off.

    Classic Valve - LVL7 - Cycles just fine.

    X-Valve - LVL10 - Cycles fine but doesn't seem as quick as the Classic to me. I am not sure how it would try and recharge a straight pin - and may need more education on this fact.

    Retro Valve - LVL7 - Fired once - then the concave portion of the pin got lodged in the teflon o-ring in between the On/Off top and bottom and would not drop until I remove the valve... I was fairly certain that was used for a finger grip, and it was supposed to be facing out.

    Again, XMT Body-Minimag Rail - standard sear.
    Last edited by XtraKargo; 08-09-2013 at 09:40 AM.

  4. #64
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    New Results.

    Thanks for looking.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by XtraKargo View Post
    Now on to the Reactor On/Off.

    Classic Valve - LVL7 - Cycles just fine.

    X-Valve - LVL10 - Cycles fine but doesn't seem as quick as the Classic to me. I am not sure how it would try and recharge a straight pin - and may need more education on this fact.

    Retro Valve - LVL7 - Fired once - then the concave portion of the pin got lodged in the teflon o-ring in between the On/Off top and bottom and would not drop until I remove the valve... I was fairly certain that was used for a finger grip, and it was supposed to be facing out.

    Again, XMT Body-Minimag Rail - standard sear.
    Could you repeat this with the Reactor pin the proper way, please? Want to make sure we have clean data.
    XT00380
    Last of the Salzburg Clan

  6. #66
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    The Retro Valve gives a firm trigger now but no shots fired. The pin is not getting caught now. (For a test I reversed the pin and it fires sporadically- but the bolt moves fine, so I put it back correctly with a urethane O ring instead of the Teflon to test, giving the firm trigger)

    The Retro has a single O ring for the top of the on/off. The Classic and X have an inner and outer. If that makes a difference.

  7. #67
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    Running out of ideas. But one more thing to try for now. Wear adequate personal protection equipment.

    Using X-Valve, Level 10 (make sure pressure is turned up high enough to make it work), good RT on/off assembly and pin, Minimag rail, and standard sear, put the marker together and air up. Unscrew both field strip screws 1/8 turn. Grasp the body firmly with one hand while holding firmly onto the grip frame with the other hand. While repeatedly pulling the trigger, rock the body in multiple directions and rotations. Use some force, but you're not looking to rip the body off the rail. Report what happens.

    Unscrew both screws another 1/8 turn. Report what happens.

    Repeat until the screws are, at most (in my opinion), 1/2 turn from how you had it originally snugly assembled.

    I'm thinking a total of 1/2 turn will be enough to loosen things up but not let things come apart. Feel this out. The decision on how far to go is yours.

    All I can think of is there is some interaction with the XMT body and the difference between the on/off bottom (RT vs. Classic) that is causing the binding. RT on/off bottom is radiused to match the diameter of the valve in that area. Classic on/off bottom is flat (assuming Reactor on/off is the same).

    I know this was touched upon at the beginning of the thread, but I'm hoping the contorting of the body while repeatedly pulling the trigger will let you deduce where the binding is occurring. Also, by how far you have to unthread the screws and force the body, it will give a general indication of how bad the binding is.

    Good luck.

  8. #68
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    Have to admit, I haven't a clue at this point. (not that I did to begin with) Just not sure how the on/off could be the issue unless it has something to do, as suggested earlier, with pin length. Maybe worth seeing if XMT or BE would be willing to take a look at it to see what the deal is.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by nak81783 View Post
    Running out of ideas. But one more thing to try for now. Wear adequate personal protection equipment.

    Using X-Valve, Level 10 (make sure pressure is turned up high enough to make it work), good RT on/off assembly and pin, Minimag rail, and standard sear, put the marker together and air up. Unscrew both field strip screws 1/8 turn. Grasp the body firmly with one hand while holding firmly onto the grip frame with the other hand. While repeatedly pulling the trigger, rock the body in multiple directions and rotations. Use some force, but you're not looking to rip the body off the rail. Report what happens.

    Unscrew both screws another 1/8 turn. Report what happens.

    Repeat until the screws are, at most (in my opinion), 1/2 turn from how you had it originally snugly assembled.

    I'm thinking a total of 1/2 turn will be enough to loosen things up but not let things come apart. Feel this out. The decision on how far to go is yours.

    All I can think of is there is some interaction with the XMT body and the difference between the on/off bottom (RT vs. Classic) that is causing the binding. RT on/off bottom is radiused to match the diameter of the valve in that area. Classic on/off bottom is flat (assuming Reactor on/off is the same).

    I know this was touched upon at the beginning of the thread, but I'm hoping the contorting of the body while repeatedly pulling the trigger will let you deduce where the binding is occurring. Also, by how far you have to unthread the screws and force the body, it will give a general indication of how bad the binding is.

    Good luck.
    So to confirm my findings (or lack there of) I took the XValve and tuned it in the Minimag, as if it were stock, and got it firing without leaks with the good on/off. removed Minimag body, set the XMT Body. Fired a single shot. froze with trigger pressure, began S L O W L Y backing out the two screws once I reached a full half turn out, and trying to move the valve or the body, with no result I degassed, pulled the trigger, the pin released, confirmed the play in the body and the valve. Gassed it back up, and it still did not fire. Nothing was removed completely, only the two screws were loosened, and the trigger was firm again.

    I am stumped yet again...

    edit: I know sometimes when there is a LVL 10 issue there has been requests to poke the bolt with a squeegee - made no difference. I just remembered doing this also during the loose body test.
    Last edited by XtraKargo; 08-09-2013 at 06:55 PM. Reason: In additon to testing.

  10. #70
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    I'll try my Mag-Fu skills.

    Main problem is the xvalve not working in the XMT body right?

    And your using a pneumatic frame?

  11. #71
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    Originally yes, but to isolate if there was any issues with pneu setup we moved the XMT and the XValve to Minimag Rail and a standard sear.

  12. #72
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    Cover the sear portion that engages the on/off pin with permanent marker. Pull the trigger a few dozen time with the marker aired up. Take a picture of the sear. Hopefully there will be witness marks of where the contact is taking place.

    Repeat ceteris paribus, except use Reactor on/off assembly.

    Post both pics.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by nak81783 View Post
    Cover the sear portion that engages the on/off pin with permanent marker. Pull the trigger a few dozen time with the marker aired up. Take a picture of the sear. Hopefully there will be witness marks of where the contact is taking place.

    Repeat ceteris paribus, except use Reactor on/off assembly.

    Post both pics.
    You asked earlier about the Reactor and if it was flat. Here are some pics of it as well.





    RT on off - in the X-Valve. Didn't fire a shot. Trigger firm.



    Reactor on off in the x - cycled fine.


  14. #74
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    Take a dremel or file and open up the width of the slot on the BAD RT on/off bottom equal distances in both directions from center. I figure this one is already chewed up a little, so you might be willing to modify this one. If you are able, make it about the size of the round partial hole that the back of the sear comes up through in the rail. If it's already that width, open it up about .030" in both directions. You may need to go further later.

    Reinstall with good pin.

    Try again.

    If you want to get an explanation first, please post pics of all three on/offs, side by side, with them all sitting on a flat surface on their tops, without the top orings. Orient the RT on/offs such that the picture can view the width of the slot on the RT on/off bottoms.

    Or black marker the edges of the slot and some of the bottom around the slot on the bottom of the RT on/off. Repeat the trigger pull exercise. See if you see witness marks on the on/off bottom.
    Last edited by nak81783; 08-09-2013 at 09:09 PM.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by nak81783 View Post


    If you want to get an explanation first, please post pics of all three on/offs, side by side, with them all sitting on a flat surface on their tops, without the top orings. Orient the RT on/offs such that the picture can view the width of the slot on the RT on/off bottoms.
    Yes, please.


  16. #76
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    So my hypothesis is that the slot in the XMT body, through which the front of the sear travels, is slightly off center, such that when the marker is fully assembled, the front of the sear may be deflected off to one side. When that happens, the back of the sear goes the other way off center. For the RT on/off to work, the back of the sear must travel up into the RT on/off bottom slot. It can't do that if it's pushed off to the side. However, the pin can still push on a portion of the back of the sear to give you a firm trigger. Also, since you can't push the back of the sear all the way up, the front of the sear can't come all the way down to release the bolt.

    The Reactor on/off works because it's flat bottomed. Sear back doesn't have to fit up into a slot to complete a trigger pull.

    Root cause corrective action would be to widen the slot on the XMT body, but I figure it'd be easier and cheaper to manipulate that galled up on/off bottom...just in case I'm wrong.

    Blackened rear sear pictures are hard to decipher, but in the one from the RT on/off, I think I see wear where the pin hit and on the edge where I think it's catching the on/off bottom slot edge.

  17. #77
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    So rather than widen, could I sand the top flat with bottom of the slot?

  18. #78
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    I would NOT do that. The bottom radius is required to hold the overall height at which the on/off top orings are set. Not sure what would happen. Might lead to reactivity/bounce issues.

  19. #79
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    Actually, you'd be making it shorter, while the pin stays the same length. Probably would cause a long, sticky pull or not be able to recharge, rather than bounce, but I'm getting tired; what do I know? I'd stick with widening the slot.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by nak81783 View Post
    Actually, you'd be making it shorter, while the pin stays the same length. Probably would cause a long, sticky pull or not be able to recharge, rather than bounce, but I'm getting tired; what do I know? I'd stick with widening the slot.
    Well I am calling it for the night as well. I can scribe the lines with a pick with the bad on off and match the XMT rear sear hole.

  21. #81
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    Do you mean the RT on/off slot is already wide enough to accept anything that fits through the XMT sear hole? Or do you mean that's how wide you're going to make it?

    Yeah, I need to hit the hay as well. I'm working on the house over the weekend, so I probably won't be very responsive.

    Good luck.

  22. #82
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    Oh, and that pic of the 3 on/off's, I wasn't quite clear enough in the orientation. Rotate the 2 RT's 90 degrees, and take the pic from the side, such that I can see through the slots to compare their height from the table to the overall height of the Reactor.

    ...if that makes sense.

  23. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by nak81783 View Post
    Do you mean the RT on/off slot is already wide enough to accept anything that fits through the XMT sear hole? Or do you mean that's how wide you're going to make it?

    Yeah, I need to hit the hay as well. I'm working on the house over the weekend, so I probably won't be very responsive. no worries, have fun around the house. I enjoy doing that almost as much as paintball.

    Good luck.
    I was thinking this after first impression, but i follow what your saying now. Just a little wider each pass.



    Quote Originally Posted by nak81783 View Post
    Oh, and that pic of the 3 on/off's, I wasn't quite clear enough in the orientation. Rotate the 2 RT's 90 degrees, and take the pic from the side, such that I can see through the slots to compare their height from the table to the overall height of the Reactor.

    ...if that makes sense.
    here you are.

  24. #84
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    I ran into a situation on a body where the hole in the body where the back of the sear pushed through was a little off and the sear could to fit through and push the on/off pin properly. Does the back of the sear fit through the hole properly? Assemble the marker except the valve and pull the trigger. Does the protrusion on the back of the sear fit through the hole?

  25. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPBN View Post
    I ran into a situation on a body where the hole in the body where the back of the sear pushed through was a little off and the sear could to fit through and push the on/off pin properly. Does the back of the sear fit through the hole properly? Assemble the marker except the valve and pull the trigger. Does the protrusion on the back of the sear fit through the hole?
    I was struggling with this too, but since the larger Reactor pin cycles, I shifted gears to what's different about other aspects of the geometry.

  26. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by nak81783 View Post
    I was struggling with this too, but since the larger Reactor pin cycles, I shifted gears to what's different about other aspects of the geometry.
    Does the pin protrude through the hole farther? Also if there is actually a milling issue with the body pretty sure XMT will stand behind his work and make it right.

  27. #87
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    It comes thru the body the same amount as the Minimag body. I used a pick to scribe a line. If there is a second one then they are touching each other, side by side.

    Quote Originally Posted by OPBN View Post
    Does the pin protrude through the hole farther? Also if there is actually a milling issue with the body pretty sure XMT will stand behind his work and make it right.

  28. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by XtraKargo View Post
    X valve with LVL 7 froze. Not a single shot.

    Classic with the lvl10. Cycled fine.

    Bolts left alone from here on out.

    Classic with lvl10 and rt on off. Back to the same as the video. Cycles and pauses before reseting.

    X valve with level7 and reactor on off (I don't think I have a stock On/Off to the classic, and this dropped right in) leaked down the barrel but cycled as fine. Almost as fast as I could pull a mech trigger.
    You've basically narrowed it down to your RT on/off here. Do you have a spare or a rebuild kit for the orings?

    Edit:

    I would also retune the lvl10 with a new carrier oring on GP. You might have a bad oring causing you to use a smaller carrier cause everything you're describing with the bolt hanging up on the return is caused by a tight carrier. Remember all the basics...no shims installed, use the gold spring, stock on/off and a mech frame when tuning. Install the largest carrier that doesn't leak. If you're still having reset issues, then add shims to compensate. (I haven't read every post but you've already tried shims right)?

    Quote Originally Posted by XtraKargo View Post
    Originally yes, but to isolate if there was any issues with pneu setup we moved the XMT and the XValve to Minimag Rail and a standard sear.
    Are you using a mech frame or are you still using the pneumatic frame when doing all this troubleshooting?

    Good old acronym. K.I.S.S. = Keep It Simple Stupid

    Take every variable out of the equation and then run your tests.

    Quote Originally Posted by XtraKargo View Post
    And just for good measure I tried the longer spring.
    Hmm...are you using the stock silver spring as is?

    If so....don't. They weren't mention to be used as is, will cause you more issues and def make you shoot hot.
    Last edited by Ando; 08-10-2013 at 01:11 AM.

  29. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ando View Post
    You've basically narrowed it down to your RT on/off here. Do you have a spare or a rebuild kit for the orings?

    Edit:

    I would also retune the lvl10 with a new carrier oring on GP. You might have a bad oring causing you to use a smaller carrier cause everything you're describing with the bolt hanging up on the return is caused by a tight carrier. Remember all the basics...no shims installed, use the gold spring, stock on/off and a mech frame when tuning. Install the largest carrier that doesn't leak. If you're still having reset issues, then add shims to compensate. (I haven't read every post but you've already tried shims right)? changed the O ring,and I read one post in the LVL10 guide when tuning not to mess with the shims, they could create more issues.

    Here is the link i used.

    http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...97#post2828797

    Quote Originally Posted by XtraKargo View Post
    Now I don't have a set of digital calipers, but my old ones show it as just shy 1/16th, and they both are the same, the calipers slides right off of one and onto the other. With the carrier I stepped up to 1.5 and it leaked so I went back to a 1. (granted this is a fresh o-ring to, in my troubleshooting on my own, I figured why not, to see what happens without shims and where I end up on carriers. really was good refresher on the LVL10 also.) I would venture to say this one is a .750 since it just touches the 3/4 mark. I will have to pull my Retro Valve out of storage to see if it is different or not.

    With the Velocity turned all the way up it still sticks, and it appears to rub on the upper portion of the body where the outer rim of the bolt pushes against the top (that is the only part that looks scored, but mildly so, a darker grey color). The breech still looks clean. I wondered about the LVL7 myself, if it would make a difference.



    Are you using a mech frame or are you still using the pneumatic frame when doing all this troubleshooting? the pneumag is my primary and was where it all began for testing purposes we moved back to a Minimag I had setup for my wife, which now I realize could have been tuned a little better in the sear and corrected that Not that she would notice, but hey, why not.

    Good old acronym. K.I.S.S. = Keep It Simple Stupid

    Take every variable out of the equation and then run your tests.


    Hmm...are you using the stock silver spring as is?the silver one was used briefly at higher velocities to try and force the bolt down the body I was using one in my primary for a while, to try and be softer on paint (but I think in further study of the LVL 10 and how it should be set up that isn't necessary.)

    If so....don't. They weren't mention to be used as is, will cause you more issues and def make you shoot hot.
    Thanks Ando!

  30. #90
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    Now with a Video!!

    Quote Originally Posted by nak81783 View Post
    Or black marker the edges of the slot and some of the bottom around the slot on the bottom of the RT on/off. Repeat the trigger pull exercise. See if you see witness marks on the on/off bottom.
    I Couldn't see anything,
    before


    after with one shot fired, and pressure, and kept pulling the trigger to see if it makes a mark...



    and more to prove my sanity, a small video demo...



    I am walking away from it a bit today. Thanks again.

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