Results 1 to 25 of 25

Thread: Level 10 Carrier/O Ring issue

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    South Jersey
    Posts
    129

    Level 10 Carrier/O Ring issue

    I looked breifly, but my kit happened to come with a size 0 carrier. No dots, no lines. Still trouble shooting my gun with the original size 1 carrier that I installed. (Not looking hard enough at the carrier) Did notice a slight, very very slight leak down the barrel after I pull the trigger, and hold it down. Bolt doesnt recock sometimes after the squeegee test, but I am also addressing the spring (used gold first) and shims issue. Going over the warpig topic for the level ten, starting with the carrier first. May answer all my questions shortly heh.
    Thanks,
    Jason
    Last edited by Stealthpanda; 09-02-2013 at 06:23 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    547
    Nowadays the largest carrier they come with is 1.5, but you can still get larger from Tuna. Forget the shims, you shouldn't need any.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    South Jersey
    Posts
    129
    Getting a slight leak with the same PT oring from my 1 carrier, when holding down the trigger, when I tried to use the 1.5 carrier. No recocking issue, though. Moving down (technically back) to the 1 carrier again, as the 1.5 carrier (without shims) only made what problem I had worse.

    Also, a slight leak after a few fires, and letting the trigger reset. I think this was mentioned as the on/off oring? Mine is sort of darker than normal, assuming its the same oring that has been in the gun for a long time.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    547
    Here's lvl - 10 tuning quide (athoma's post) that we currently use.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    South Jersey
    Posts
    129
    Is it common to use 0 shims/ a 0.5 carrier? I am at size 1 now, 0 shims, and it will do the leak-for-a-second after a few shots thing, as mentioned in the athoma post in that guide you linked.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    South Jersey
    Posts
    129
    The only reason this is confusing at all is :
    The 0.5 carrier did not move very freely on the end of the bolt, but didn't leak at all upon trigger pull, and pull and hold. Squeegee test: it wont recock when it gets stuck.
    The 1 carrier moves freely on the end of the bolt, doesnt leak after a trigger pull, but leaks for about 1-2 seconds after a trigger pull and hold. Squeegee test: it will recock itself most times after it gets stuck.
    I was under the impression that only shims affected the recock point after an obstruction/ball halfway in the breach.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    547
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthpanda View Post
    The only reason this is confusing at all is :
    The 0.5 carrier did not move very freely on the end of the bolt, but didn't leak at all upon trigger pull, and pull and hold. Squeegee test: it wont recock when it gets stuck.
    The 1 carrier moves freely on the end of the bolt, doesnt leak after a trigger pull, but leaks for about 1-2 seconds after a trigger pull and hold. Squeegee test: it will recock itself most times after it gets stuck.
    I was under the impression that only shims affected the recock point after an obstruction/ball halfway in the breach.
    It sounds like your 1.0 carrier is just a tad too small.

    What you might also want to check is that your field strip screw isn't too tight. When fully tightened try to open it back about half a turn or little more and see if that helps at all. Too tight field strip screw might on some occasion make the bolt stick and give you a false reading on how the lvl-10 carrier is behaving.

    I'ts pretty common to not have to use any shims with any of the carriers.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    PHX, AZ
    Posts
    1,434
    if its a new kit your carrier o-ring needs to be broken in. wat on/off are you using? and what valve are you using? wat set up are you using?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    South Jersey
    Posts
    129
    Classic valve, everything is stock. I have changed out every o ring in the on/off, including the stubborn one that sits at the bottom (technically the top) that doesnt like to come out when you remove the on/off itself. Not using co2.

    EDIT: Noticed once I had around 1000psi in my tank, I had more issues. Yeah, out of air. Forgot the mag operated at 850 psi? So anything lower than 1000psi wont cut it. At least thats what it feels like happened. Going to fill the tank, and rage later. Thank you all for the help now.
    Last edited by Stealthpanda; 09-01-2013 at 05:01 PM.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    PHX, AZ
    Posts
    1,434
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthpanda View Post
    Classic valve, everything is stock. I have changed out every o ring in the on/off, including the stubborn one that sits at the bottom (technically the top) that doesnt like to come out when you remove the on/off itself. Not using co2.

    EDIT: Noticed once I had around 1000psi in my tank, I had more issues. Yeah, out of air. Forgot the mag operated at 850 psi? So anything lower than 1000psi wont cut it. At least thats what it feels like happened. Going to fill the tank, and rage later. Thank you all for the help now.


    haha..oooops!!! yeah most of tha time its something easy like that!!!

    my favorite is "my Mag wont shoot, i just filled tha tank but it still wont shoot" then they realize the forgot to turn tha lil knob on their on/off asa to air up their mag..haha

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    South Jersey
    Posts
    129
    I am understanding more now, the carrier really means nothing. It is making up for the differences in o ring size, to such a small degree? Which is why I saw people say if you couldn't get it perfect, move to a new o ring, and start the process over again.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    South Jersey
    Posts
    129
    I have also thought about something, but this might be fixed with a carrier/o ring swap... Can that 1-2 second leak after you hold the trigger in, be lived with? I realize its probably killing gas efficiency on a gun that isn't really praised for its efficiency in the first place... OR will it be corrected with the perfect carrier/o ring fit?

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Halifax, N.S., Canada
    Posts
    7,469
    The leak is usually due to the bolt stem vent hole being really close to the sealing edge of the oring. It won't cause any efficiency issues during normal operation. The oring vent hole being really close to the sealing edge of the oring can cause you to mistakenly use a carrier size that is too tight for your setup. This may cause the occasional bolt stick issue. When the bolt stem vent hole is really close to the sealing edge of the oring and no shims are installed, it is usually an indication that the sear is worn causing the bolt to sit farther forward than it normally would. I would check your sear for wear at the tip.
    Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    South Jersey
    Posts
    129
    These 2 pictures alone make me think the sear is fine. I don't want to be ignorant, and its a shame I am probably asking questions that have been asked since its release 10+ years, but I feel the oring I had couldnt find a nice home in carrier 1, or 0.5. Shrug, i'll find out when I get a refill Tuesday. I am perfectly fine playing with it as it was, if its only leaking when I hold the trigger in, as this isnt an issue in normal operation, as you mentioned athomas. Again, thank you all for the help, and I will delve deeper into the warpig article, as well as the various information pointed out in your post above, and the AO sticky I began reading.

    IMG_20130901_225927.jpg
    IMG_20130901_225909.jpg

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Halifax, N.S., Canada
    Posts
    7,469
    The sear looks fine but its hard to tell with the resolution of the pictures. When looking at the tip where it catches the bolt, if there is a tiny indentation (the surface is no longer perfectly flat) where it catches the bolt, then the hard surface is worn through and it is time to replace the sear. It doesn't take much once the hard surface is worn through.

    How old is your mag? There may be enough wear on the sear and sear pin combination.

    Make sure you snap the sear pin securely in place in the rail. Check that the rail bushing is in place.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    South Jersey
    Posts
    129
    This mag looks old. Serial number cf21214. Non-powerfeed, the two holes on the back of the rail where they used to mount a dovetail on the back near the valve old. The sear is visbily worn, but it didn't look like it lost any of its edge on the catch part. And what is the sear bushing? The sear pin has always seated in its groove when I installed it. I will order a new sear to be safe. With everything I have ordered, I am a rail, and valve away from a new mag entirely heh. Ill know more when I get to fill my tank. Thanks again.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Halifax, N.S., Canada
    Posts
    7,469
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthpanda View Post
    This mag looks old. Serial number cf21214.
    That is 1993 vintage. I thought the sear looked old by the shape of the cut. The newer ones don't have as much metal below where the sear contacts the bolt so they have less mass which is good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthpanda View Post
    The sear is visbily worn, but it didn't look like it lost any of its edge on the catch part.
    If its visibly worn, that's usually a good time to replace. Keep the old one for a spare in case anything happens in the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthpanda View Post
    And what is the sear bushing? The sear pin has always seated in its groove when I installed it.
    Its a rail bushing. It is a bushing that fits in the rail where the rear field strip screw goes into the valve. It properly spaces the valve on the rail with respect to the body. If it is missing, the valve will move around and will sit too far back when aired up and cause leaking out the front of the powertube.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    South Jersey
    Posts
    129
    1993. Thats crazy. Im going to order a new sear, in the mean time I am going to try and get it working without. Still waiting on air Silly holidays. I can certainly live with a silly leak if I hold the trigger in, but since I removed everything, and my mag is in parts, I have to start from scratch. Id rather learn it now, when I don't have a game any time soon, than have to learn it when I get my X valve in the near future :3
    Sincerely irritated by my mag, but they are still awesome.
    Thanks,
    Jason

    EDIT: I'd love to find a place in/near south Jersey that knows anything about an Automag. I have a field up north, that has someone who played with Tom Kaye back in 1991 apparently... blew my mind, but he said he could help me. But thats about an hour and a half drive. My local shop doesn't know jack about mags. A shame really.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Halifax, N.S., Canada
    Posts
    7,469
    Its easy to learn about mags. Just look at the diagrams and air passages, and you can figure out how they work.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    South Jersey
    Posts
    129
    Gun fires, resets, slight leak if you hold the trigger in. 1 Carrier, no shims. Bolt always recocks on an obstruction. Winning. I have noticed that the gun wont chrono over 250 +/- 5. Any time you turn up the velocity, it begins to vent out the back. Stock Gold spring with the lvl 10 kit. I still call this progress. Thanks AO!

    EDIT:
    Ok, let me take a moment to explain what I did, as maybe this thread may help anyone in the future:
    I replaced every single o-ring inside of this gun. Reg seat, all o-rings inside or attached to the on/off, new sear as well. Generously lubed up every said o-ring that was replaced as well. 4-6 drops inside of my asa, dry fired maybe 30-50 times after I finally got the gun to fire/reset/reset after an obstruction. VERY slight leak when you hold the trigger, ill live with that for now. Unfortunately now, I either have a bad/old regulator piston assembly, or I just chrono'd the gun and it just wont chrono over 255ish with the gold spring they provide you. So its either I change to the red spring, and see if this will let me hit 275-280 w/o leaking out the back, or I replace the regulator piston assembly. (already ordered ) Automag overhaul, plus the many tips and advice I have found from athomas(and the rest of AO) and warpigs response/thread, have me with a very functional gun at the moment. (Minus the slightly lower than prefered velocity)

    Thanks again,
    Jason
    Last edited by Stealthpanda; 09-08-2013 at 12:22 AM.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Halifax, N.S., Canada
    Posts
    7,469
    Its not that the gun will chrono higher with the red bolt spring than the gold one, its that the red bolt spring will not allow the gun to chrono at lower velocities like the gold one. The red bolt spring will make the pressure requirements higher than the gold spring. Your problem of venting out the back will get worst with the red spring.

    Replace your regulator piston assembly. Your gun is older. I suspect is still has the old original low pressure regulator piston assembly which is worn and weak plus the level 10 sometimes operates at a higher pressure than the original level 7 mags were set to vent at.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    South Jersey
    Posts
    129
    If it truely is from 1993 like the valve serial number may indicate, and from the looks of it, nothing internally was upgraded... than that may be the case. I ordered a new reg piston assemb. just recently, ill get it chrono'd when I install it/head to my local shop. If the sear discoloration was any indication to its age, AND my reg piston was just as discolored, I may have found the culprit.

    So what your saying is the only thing the spring has to do with it, its velocity range, and how harsh the bolt is on paint? For example: gold chronos from 210-260 and may be harder on paint due to less tension from the bolt, and the red spring may chrono from 240-300 and is easier on paint due to more tension from a longer spring? The numbers are pretty non-specific, so it might not be as huge of a gap as I make it sound. This coupled with a new high pressure reg piston assembly, makes me understand more. Did I botch this idea/theory?
    Thanks,
    Jason

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Halifax, N.S., Canada
    Posts
    7,469
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthpanda View Post
    So what your saying is the only thing the spring has to do with it, its velocity range, and how harsh the bolt is on paint? For example: gold chronos from 210-260 and may be harder on paint due to less tension from the bolt, and the red spring may chrono from 240-300 and is easier on paint due to more tension from a longer spring? The numbers are pretty non-specific, so it might not be as huge of a gap as I make it sound. This coupled with a new high pressure reg piston assembly, makes me understand more. Did I botch this idea/theory?
    Thanks,
    Jason
    You have the just of it.

    The gold spring will chrono at the lowest velcocity because it requires less force/pressure to push it forward. For that very reason, it also allows it to chrono at the highest velocity. The lighter force allows the bolt to stay forward easier and release air at a greater rate at higher internal pressures which increases the maximum velocity compared to the red spring.

    The red spring is stiffer so the force/pressure must be higher to push the bolt forward, thus the lowest velocity is also a higher value just to move the bolt. The red spring with its greater return force also acts like a stopper at the end of the powertube restricting the air flow to a greater degree than the gold spring which has the effect of reducing the velocity which affects the maximum attainable value causing it to be lower than with the gold spring.

    An added restriction on a level 10 is the smaller hole at the carrier oring that the air must pass through. This restricts air flow which requires a bit more pressure to compensate for the loss of flow and makes the level 10 more inefficient, even with the same gold spring as with the level 7. This is the main reason the overall pressure is higher in the chamber just to operate at the same velocity as a level 7 bolt. The level 10 operating pressure often exceeds the vent pressure setting of the original regulator piston assembly.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    South Jersey
    Posts
    129
    I had to read it a few times to grasp it, but it actually makes sense. Not your fault - im just tired. xD I just feel, at that point, the only reason to use the red vs gold spring is pressure exerted on the ball. Sound about right? I can't wait to learn about the X-valve. I feel like I have this level 10/classic valve stuff under wraps. Feels kind of nice.
    Thanks again,
    Jason

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Halifax, N.S., Canada
    Posts
    7,469
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthpanda View Post
    ...the only reason to use the red vs gold spring is pressure exerted on the ball. Sound about right?
    You got it.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •