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Thread: Slow recharge, slow trigger, then POP!

  1. #1

    Slow recharge, slow trigger, then POP!

    I have a Classic that I bought off Craigslist. Hadn't been used in years, but it seemed to work ok. For the heck of it, stuck an Air America Black Ice reg bottom housing on the back of the valve. Reused the piston, adjuster, spring pack, and reg seat from the Mag. (I know reusing the reg seat is a no-no, I was just curious at this point.) Lo and behold, it works! Awesome. Just to be safe, I fully rebuilt the gun with an AGD kit, then added CCM fittings and a hardline, and it still worked fine.

    Problem #1: Today I went to target shoot, and I can't get more than .5bps. It takes more than half a second for the trigger to "click" back. If I pull the trigger immediately after it finally returns, it farts at me. (Aside, is this what chuffing is?) It takes a second or longer before it recharges enough to actually fire a shot at full velocity. There's an audible hiss that seems to be coming from inside the valve while it's recharging. If I crank in the adjuster, velocity goes up but doesn't improve cycle rate. I switched back to the original Classic valve back thinking that might be the problem, along with a new reg seat, but no change. After cleaning out the on/off a few times, cleaning everything, staring at operating animations, and generally fiddling for an hour and a half, I gave up and went in to hang out with my toddler. ("Daddy sad because paintball gun is bwoken." That's right, kid.)

    Problem #2: It's been a good 5 hours since I degassed, pulled the trigger a few times, removed the tank, and hung it on the wall. Thought maybe I'll try cleaning the on/off again? Pull it off the wall, pull out the field strip screw, pull the trigger to make sure the pin doesn't catch, and slide the valve back. Scared the poop out of me when the on/off pin comes loudly rocketing out the fieldstrip hole, ricochets off my leg and makes the radiator ring nicely. I thought Mags degas pretty thoroughly? Am I doing something wrong, or is there something wrong with the gun?

    I can only assume one of you is going to say replace the number whatever o-ring and it'll be perfect, and I'm going to feel like a moron, but better to feel like a moron and have a working Mag than the opposite.

  2. #2
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    Seems like something is jamming your "Regulator Valve Pin" so I'd check the regulator area for any dirt, also check that the valve pin isn't bent. But the problem is definitely in that area.
    I suppose it could be something jamming the piston as well.

    Attached Images Attached Images

  3. #3
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    gun still being pressurized after removing tank...i've had that happen before. pressurized air is obviously in the air chamber, enough to blow the pin out. but not enough to push the bolt forward to escape due the to spring pressure. i think it happens sometimes when your tank is low? i'm not sure...

    bolt slow to return...do you have a level 7 or level 10 bolt? if you aren't sure, post a picture. if you have a level 7 bolt, maybe try a different power tube o-ring as yours may be too tight (they do vary in size, and some new o-rings are bad). or, try a larger power tube spacer (ie, try a .220 if you have a .215). this will let the o-ring sit further down on the bolt stem, so there should be less drag. you could also try swapping the bolt spring out with a new one if you haven't already, as they do wear out eventually.

    if you have a level 10 bolt installed, you need to tune it. first put the gold spring on the bolt and remove all shims inside the power tube if any are installed. next, while using the same carrier o-ring, find the largest carrier that does not leak.
    Last edited by Cyco-Dude; 09-27-2014 at 05:53 AM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyco-Dude View Post
    gun still being pressurized after removing tank...i've had that happen before. pressurized air is obviously in the air chamber, enough to blow the pin out. but not enough to push the bolt forward to escape due the to spring pressure. i think it happens sometimes when your tank is low? i'm not sure...
    Thing that makes me believe it's in the valve pin or piston is that he removed the tank and it still held pressure. All the pressure from the air chamber should bleed out of the asa if regulator is working like it should.

  5. #5
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    all i know is i'm glad to have a bunch of automags, that way i can just swap things out until i either find what was wrong or the problem somehow fixes itself!

  6. #6
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    I've never had this happen to me, so I'm just trying to deduce what it could be. And I could be totally wrong in the end.

  7. #7
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    If it was the regulator pin or regulator oring then your velocity would not be steady or adjustable. This indicates that the regulator part is probably working properly.

    As you removed the valve, the air in the chamber should have been able to push the bolt forward and escape as the bolt spring relaxed. Since it did not, it indicates that the on-off is probably restricting the air flow and causing air to be trapped in the regulator part of the valve. This pressure would also push on the top of the on-off pin and fire it out as soon as it was free to move. I would check the on-off area of the gun to make sure everything is exactly where it should be. Check that the sear pin is fully seated as well, to make sure the sear is sitting down in the rail properly.
    Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by athomas View Post
    If it was the regulator pin or regulator oring then your velocity would not be steady or adjustable. This indicates that the regulator part is probably working properly.
    Shouldn't it then bleed all the air out when bottle is removed?

  9. #9
    Thanks for the quick replies! I poked at it today and here's where I am after a thorough cleaning and no improvement.

    Reg pin: I think it's straight. It rolls on surface plate with no visible wobble or eccentricity. Any better way to check straightness?

    Bolt: (The bolt moves fine, it's the trigger I have to wait for) Level 7, .220, brand new OEM spring. All o-rings throughout the gun are brand new except for the power tube tip, the one that just holds the tip from unscrewing. The bolt moves so smoothly, I was almost worried about the opposite, that o-ring under the spacer was too loose. Swapped to another ring, same problem. Should I go to a smaller spacer?

    Reg piston: Just saw my spring stack is very loose and floppy on its shaft. This is still the original part. Could it be collapsed/fatigued? Would that even cause the problem? Now I'm wondering what happens when the spring stack doesn't have enough travel or strength. It would lead to underpressurizing for a given setting of the adjuster, but it should be possible to compensate by turning the adjuster in further. Unless the spring travel is the limiter... Note: this thought is from years of using Uniregs: same type of spring, but longer, and they always seem to be tight and firm.

    Sear: Also just noticed. Top of the sear catch, the front, grind/stamp marks are very faint. Doesn't look like wear, looks like someone may have attempted the Ravi Chopra trigger mod, step one. (Polish top of sear. Step 2: Side angle on top of sear. Step 3: grind on/off pin. Step 2 and 3 are definitely not done on this one.) I'd think this would lead to hot shots from the bolt releasing before the on/off is closed, not slow recharge. Thoughts?

    Cyco's Mag-o-Rama paintball pick-a-part: This is where my life is heading. I actually have another supposedly known good Classic valve on the way specifically to be able to swap out. Also, about to order a new piston, spring, pin, and sear from Tuna. I'd just like to exhaust all options before throwing even more cash at it as I'm in the midst of spending a wife-angering amount of money on a complete brand new x-valve mag build.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by athomas View Post
    If it was the regulator pin or regulator oring then your velocity would not be steady or adjustable. This indicates that the regulator part is probably working properly.

    As you removed the valve, the air in the chamber should have been able to push the bolt forward and escape as the bolt spring relaxed. Since it did not, it indicates that the on-off is probably restricting the air flow and causing air to be trapped in the regulator part of the valve. This pressure would also push on the top of the on-off pin and fire it out as soon as it was free to move. I would check the on-off area of the gun to make sure everything is exactly where it should be. Check that the sear pin is fully seated as well, to make sure the sear is sitting down in the rail properly.
    Just using my eyecrometer, it seems that the bolt is still sealing by the time the on/off pin clears the frame mounting hole. I could understand a little bit of pressure being held, just by the way the valve works, but the pin didn't "foop" out across my desk, it fired hard enough to go across the room.

    In the interest of completeness and sanity, I just dropped in a brand new RT on/off assembly I have here and no changes. (I'd been planning on using it in this gun anyways, to lighten the trigger pull)

  11. #11
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    My friends Mag had the same problem. Check that your trigger frame is not too tight/too loose, or that you are not missing the guide pin from the rail to the trigger frame. (the one that sits in front of the field strip screw. I can't seem to find the proper name for this part.)


    SZ
    Quote Originally Posted by going_home View Post
    This is AO, find/make/mod an alternative .

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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleStasiu View Post
    Reg pin: I think it's straight. It rolls on surface plate with no visible wobble or eccentricity. Any better way to check straightness?
    I think that would show it if it was bent enough to cause trouble.

    Quote Originally Posted by UncleStasiu View Post
    Bolt: (The bolt moves fine, it's the trigger I have to wait for) Level 7, .220, brand new OEM spring. All o-rings throughout the gun are brand new except for the power tube tip, the one that just holds the tip from unscrewing. The bolt moves so smoothly, I was almost worried about the opposite, that o-ring under the spacer was too loose. Swapped to another ring, same problem. Should I go to a smaller spacer?
    The spacer you got should be fine. And as the bolt holds air, the o-ring is working as it should.
    Is the trigger limp? If yes, then I think it's the on/off.

    Quote Originally Posted by UncleStasiu View Post
    Reg piston: Just saw my spring stack is very loose and floppy on its shaft. This is still the original part. Could it be collapsed/fatigued? Would that even cause the problem? Now I'm wondering what happens when the spring stack doesn't have enough travel or strength. It would lead to underpressurizing for a given setting of the adjuster, but it should be possible to compensate by turning the adjuster in further. Unless the spring travel is the limiter... Note: this thought is from years of using Uniregs: same type of spring, but longer, and they always seem to be tight and firm.
    You can test by putting a washer in the bottom of the velocity adjustment nut.



    Trying the valve with that RT on/off would definitely tell if the on/off was the problem.

  13. #13
    The bushing that the field strip screw runs through? Yep, that's still in there. Just tried loosening and tightening the frame screws. Neither direction seems to help. I'm just about ready to give up, wait until the other valve shows up, and see what happens then.

  14. #14
    The trigger is limp after firing until the on/off resets. One faint click and the trigger pops forward, 2nd louder click and there's actual normal tension on the trigger. There was no change in the problem with the RT on/off, just a little lighter pull in general. I'll try the washer. (starting to run low on pressure. My last tank is down to 1k)

  15. #15
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    One thing, is the trigger rod properly adjusted? Having the safety on, there should be a gap that's about credit card thickness between the back of the trigger and and tip of the rod when the gun is gassed up.

    edit. Won't be this if the trigger is limp.
    Last edited by Laku; 09-27-2014 at 12:54 PM.

  16. #16
    the on off pin is what pushes sear back to reset, so if its not resetting the pin is not being pushed back down after you release the trigger. something is restricting the air into the on/off.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleStasiu View Post
    The trigger is limp after firing until the on/off resets. One faint click and the trigger pops forward, 2nd louder click and there's actual normal tension on the trigger. There was no change in the problem with the RT on/off, just a little lighter pull in general. I'll try the washer. (starting to run low on pressure. My last tank is down to 1k)
    What output pressure does you tank have? It should be about 800 to be safe.Though classic valve will probably work on lower pressure than that, the rule of thumb is 800 or more.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleStasiu View Post
    Bolt: (The bolt moves fine, it's the trigger I have to wait for) Level 7, .220, brand new OEM spring. All o-rings throughout the gun are brand new except for the power tube tip, the one that just holds the tip from unscrewing. The bolt moves so smoothly, I was almost worried about the opposite, that o-ring under the spacer was too loose. Swapped to another ring, same problem. Should I go to a smaller spacer?

    Reg piston: Just saw my spring stack is very loose and floppy on its shaft. This is still the original part. Could it be collapsed/fatigued? Would that even cause the problem? Now I'm wondering what happens when the spring stack doesn't have enough travel or strength. It would lead to underpressurizing for a given setting of the adjuster, but it should be possible to compensate by turning the adjuster in further. Unless the spring travel is the limiter... Note: this thought is from years of using Uniregs: same type of spring, but longer, and they always seem to be tight and firm.

    Sear: Also just noticed. Top of the sear catch, the front, grind/stamp marks are very faint. Doesn't look like wear, looks like someone may have attempted the Ravi Chopra trigger mod, step one. (Polish top of sear. Step 2: Side angle on top of sear. Step 3: grind on/off pin. Step 2 and 3 are definitely not done on this one.) I'd think this would lead to hot shots from the bolt releasing before the on/off is closed, not slow recharge. Thoughts?
    bolt is fine; the air pressure actually moves the power tube o-ring up and seals against the bolt stem. if you've ever fired the gun and taken the valve out, you may notice the bolt is kind of "stuck"; thats the o-ring holding it in there.

    your spring pack is fine.

    i would post a picture of your sear.

    finally, if you haven't already, change you power tube o-ring. even new ones can be out-of-spec. i've had a couple that were way too tight, and had too much friction to operate correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laku View Post
    One thing, is the trigger rod properly adjusted
    Quote Originally Posted by vintage View Post
    something is restricting the air into the on/off.
    Quote Originally Posted by Laku View Post
    What output pressure does you tank have?
    i'll just add...are you using a remote line? are you screwing the tank all the way into the asa? sometimes screwing the tank all the way in can actually restrict air flow. try just screwing it in until the gun pressurizes, then another quarter turn or so. to rule out the pressure output variable, test with another high-output (850 psi) tank and see what that does.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleStasiu View Post
    The trigger is limp after firing until the on/off resets. One faint click and the trigger pops forward, 2nd louder click and there's actual normal tension on the trigger.
    The first click is the on-off pushing the sear forward. The second click is the chamber pressure pushing the bolt against the sear. Usually they are just one click, because it happens so fast. Yours is happening really slow.

    I would investigate the ASA. If your bottle is turned in too far, it could actually shut off the air supply. Try the steps indicated by Cyco_Dude.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laku View Post
    Shouldn't it then bleed all the air out when bottle is removed?
    Not all of it. The pressure on the regulator piston assembly keeps the regulator piston pushed back and the spring on the regulator pin will make sure the regulator stays sealed as long as the pressure in the back of the valve is above the pressure required to push that assembly forward to open it. Usually the air vents out the front when you release valve because the bolt can get pushed forward a bit as the bolt spring becomes more relaxed. Air retention becomes more of an issue with level 10 bolts because it takes more pressure to push the bolt forward as you remove the valve. Air retention is usually not that big of an issue in a classic since it is regulated pressure and restricted to the force of the spring tension on the reg pin assembly. There is something else at play here.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by athomas View Post
    Not all of it. The pressure on the regulator piston assembly keeps the regulator piston pushed back and the spring on the regulator pin will make sure the regulator stays sealed as long as the pressure in the back of the valve is above the pressure required to push that assembly forward to open it. Usually the air vents out the front when you release valve because the bolt can get pushed forward a bit as the bolt spring becomes more relaxed. Air retention becomes more of an issue with level 10 bolts because it takes more pressure to push the bolt forward as you remove the valve. Air retention is usually not that big of an issue in a classic since it is regulated pressure and restricted to the force of the spring tension on the reg pin assembly. There is something else at play here.
    Ok thanks, I didn't know that.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyco-Dude View Post
    if you've ever fired the gun and taken the valve out, you may notice the bolt is kind of "stuck"; thats the o-ring holding it in there.
    Didn't know that. Neat!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyco-Dude View Post
    i would post a picture of your sear.
    Will do as soon as I get home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyco-Dude View Post
    finally, if you haven't already, change you power tube o-ring. even new ones can be out-of-spec. i've had a couple that were way too tight, and had too much friction to operate correctly.
    Tried all 4 I have. 2 brand new, 2 previously installed. Still nothing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyco-Dude View Post
    i'll just add...are you using a remote line? are you screwing the tank all the way into the asa? sometimes screwing the tank all the way in can actually restrict air flow. try just screwing it in until the gun pressurizes, then another quarter turn or so. to rule out the pressure output variable, test with another high-output (850 psi) tank and see what that does.
    Quote Originally Posted by Laku View Post
    What output pressure does you tank have? It should be about 800 to be safe.Though classic valve will probably work on lower pressure than that, the rule of thumb is 800 or more.
    Quote Originally Posted by athomas View Post
    I would investigate the ASA. If your bottle is turned in too far, it could actually shut off the air supply. Try the steps indicated by Cyco_Dude.
    I've been using 2 Ninja standard 4500 reg/tanks. Output is spec'ed at 750-850psi. I don't have a gauge in that range otherwise I'd double check them. One reg is brand new, and has the ball instead of pin. The other is a year or 2 old. The ball one doesn't behave nicely and I have to keep it slightly unscrewed to work with Eclipse ASAs, but the pin one is what had the gun working perfectly previously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laku View Post
    One thing, is the trigger rod properly adjusted? Having the safety on, there should be a gap that's about credit card thickness between the back of the trigger and and tip of the rod when the gun is gassed up.

    edit. Won't be this if the trigger is limp.
    I try to always make sure the trigger rod is set to have a small amount of freeplay when gassed up. 1-2mm has worked me in the past for "odd" frames, and just factory stock with a CF frame has never failed me.

  22. #22
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    have you considered taking it to a witch doctor? it may be cursed...

  23. #23
    I know this sounds really odd, but I had a mag do this once. I tried everything I could possibly think of and nothing.

    Turns out, the sear pin was worn making the whole assembly not catch everything quite the way it was supposed to. Sometimes it would manifest with air down the barrel. Other times it would manifest with bolt stick. Sometimes it would manifest with this slow recharge and the valve staying pressurized even after bleeding the system.

    Try changing out your sear pin.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleStasiu View Post
    I've been using 2 Ninja standard 4500 reg/tanks. Output is spec'ed at 750-850psi. I don't have a gauge in that range otherwise I'd double check them. One reg is brand new, and has the ball instead of pin. The other is a year or 2 old. The ball one doesn't behave nicely and I have to keep it slightly unscrewed to work with Eclipse ASAs, but the pin one is what had the gun working perfectly previously.
    Those should be fine for Classic mag

    Quote Originally Posted by UncleStasiu View Post
    I try to always make sure the trigger rod is set to have a small amount of freeplay when gassed up. 1-2mm has worked me in the past for "odd" frames, and just factory stock with a CF frame has never failed me.
    Thats fine as well.

    I'm still learning towards something in the valve department.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyco-Dude View Post
    have you considered taking it to a witch doctor? it may be cursed...
    Well I hadn't until NOW. Hard to find a houngan here in Chicago. Think a good ole' Catholic priest will do? "Forgive me father for I have sinned. I attempted to modify the perfection that is a stock Automag."

    Also, I actually can't take a pic of my sear as there was an... incident and I no longer have a phone with a camera. (And in this day and age, who still has a point'n'shoot? Smart people, that's who.)

    Quote Originally Posted by bowcycle View Post
    Try changing out your sear pin.
    Are you talking about the pin on which the sear pivots? Or the on/off pin? If my sear's been modified or worn down, this could have the same effect. I'm considering just buying a brand new sear already, since I've tried a brand new RT on/off assembly with no improvement. I'll order a new pivot pin as long as I'm at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laku View Post
    I'm still learning towards something in the valve department.
    I guess I'll find out soon enough when my new-to-me valve shows up.

    Everyone: Thanks for all the help. I'll post what the solution is once I screw around with another valve and some new parts. Hopefully it'll help someone in the future.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleStasiu View Post
    Are you talking about the pin on which the sear pivots?
    Yes. That is the one. I mentioned it above as well. It needs to be in good condition, but it also needs to be fully snapped into place. Some rails allow the sear pin to sit down in the slot, but aren't fully seated until you press them in. If they aren't fully seated, they won't allow the on-off pin to open properly.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by athomas View Post
    Yes. That is the one. I mentioned it above as well. It needs to be in good condition, but it also needs to be fully snapped into place. Some rails allow the sear pin to sit down in the slot, but aren't fully seated until you press them in. If they aren't fully seated, they won't allow the on-off pin to open properly.
    just to expand on this, there are two different styles of sear pins. ones with rounded ends that just drop into the rail, and ones with square edges. the ones with the square edges are the ones you have to press down into the rail. i've been rounding the corners of my square-style pins so i don't have this issue.

  28. #28
    Conclusion, and a solution of sorts...

    I aired up with 900psi in the tank. At this point, it was a bone stock Classic with all new o-rings, new spring, cf frame, stock trigger rod length, macroline, and a sear of unknown modifications. Tried firing, same issue. Installed the new to me Classic valve directly out of the box, 3 drops of KC oil in the asa, aired it up, and it worked perfectly. Installed my desired mods one at a time, airing up and testing between each one with no issues. Order of install:
    Black Ice reg back
    ss macroline and CCM fittings
    'cocker frame with readjusted trigger rod
    new spring and bumper from AGD kit
    RT on/off with quad o-ring

    The quad o-ring gave me a hair trigger that would leak down the barrel at the slightest touch, so went back to teflon, and am very happy with it. For the heck of it, I dropped the problematic valve/bolt/spring in again and the damnable thing worked PERFECTLY. Put the modded one back in, put the ex-plagued one in my drawer for Mag #3, and put scotch in my glass.

    Apparently what you need to do is bring home another valve. The original one will be scared of being replaced, and will quit misbehaving. Seriously, by the end of it, the only thing different between the valve fronts was the powertube o-ring. Process of elimination says that has to be the problem. I guess that means that I owe Cyco a cookie:

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyco-Dude View Post
    finally, if you haven't already, change you power tube o-ring. even new ones can be out-of-spec. i've had a couple that were way too tight, and had too much friction to operate correctly.

    Thanks again to everyone for helping me out!

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleStasiu View Post
    The quad o-ring gave me a hair trigger that would leak down the barrel at the slightest touch, so went back to teflon, and am very happy with it.
    The slight leak down the barrel when you touch the trigger is often caused by using a powertube spacer that is too long. Usually, a tiny leak in a level 7 will go away when you slightly touch the trigger, but if the sear or bolt is worn a bit, or if the sear is modified, the movement of the sear allows the bolt to come forward a tiny bit and the bolt stem separates from the powertube oring. The same thing happens in a level 10 with the vent hole.

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by athomas View Post
    The slight leak down the barrel when you touch the trigger is often caused by using a powertube spacer that is too long. Usually, a tiny leak in a level 7 will go away when you slightly touch the trigger, but if the sear or bolt is worn a bit, or if the sear is modified, the movement of the sear allows the bolt to come forward a tiny bit and the bolt stem separates from the powertube oring. The same thing happens in a level 10 with the vent hole.
    So in theory, if the sear is brand new, the spacer is the correct length, and power tube o-ring is good, I should be able to get away with a quad ring in the on/off, correct? I'll have to give that a try. Thanks!

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