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Thread: The leaky level 10/on/off assembly valve thread of death

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  1. #1
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    The leaky level 10/on/off assembly valve thread of death

    In my infinite quest to stop my gun from leaking, I may or may not have found other issues, but most definately found more questions. The spring pack in the back of the reg moves, is this normal? I may have used gun oil to lubricate this, in hindsight realizing it said "keep greased". One in the same, or a boo-boo? Also, the o-ring on the bottom of the bottom of the on/off has some wiggle room, even with using the proper o-ring. Again, normal? And the top brass part to my on/off looks nothing like any of the current ones sold for an Automag classic. Again, probably an old part, but I didn't know if it was outdated, like in the case of the regulator piston. I swear, I am almost at the part where NOTHING is the same as when I bought it, inside and out. Are leaks a part of owning a mag? Am I being too anal? Thinking I had things figured out, and then this: Kind of frustrating.

    EDIT: Just found this, as I type:
    http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...98-Spring-pack
    I didn't notice mine moving last time I took it apart, but if TK says its normal... fine with me!
    Last edited by Stealthpanda; 09-12-2013 at 06:51 PM. Reason: Derpy hooves

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthpanda View Post
    In my infinite quest to stop my gun from leaking, I may or may not have found other issues, but most definately found more questions. The spring pack in the back of the reg moves, is this normal? I may have used gun oil to lubricate this, in hindsight realizing it said "keep greased". One in the same, or a boo-boo? Also, the o-ring on the bottom of the bottom of the on/off has some wiggle room, even with using the proper o-ring. Again, normal? And the top brass part to my on/off looks nothing like any of the current ones sold for an Automag classic. Again, probably an old part, but I didn't know if it was outdated, like in the case of the regulator piston. I swear, I am almost at the part where NOTHING is the same as when I bought it, inside and out. Are leaks a part of owning a mag? Am I being too anal? Thinking I had things figured out, and then this: Kind of frustrating.

    EDIT: Just found this, as I type:
    http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...98-Spring-pack
    I didn't notice mine moving last time I took it apart, but if TK says its normal... fine with me!
    I don't have any leaks on my mags. So no it's not part of owning mag. You're not telling where it's leaking. Have you managed to isolate the leak to specific part of the valve?

    Can you post a picture of your on/off with the top part that doesn't look like the ones currently sold?

    On/off pin should be pretty snug in the top o-ring. What kind of wiggle are you talking about? What do you do when you notice it?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laku View Post
    I don't have any leaks on my mags. So no it's not part of owning mag. You're not telling where it's leaking. Have you managed to isolate the leak to specific part of the valve?

    Can you post a picture of your on/off with the top part that doesn't look like the ones currently sold?

    On/off pin should be pretty snug in the top o-ring. What kind of wiggle are you talking about? What do you do when you notice it?
    Apologies, I got so far ahead of myself posting this before I went to do something else, or that thing called proof-reading, that I didn't even say where it was leaking from! I was pretty generous with oiling, but it was slightly leaking when gassed up, trigger at rest, from the barrel. Touching the bolt changed the tone. Applying slight pressure to, but not firing, the trigger made it stop. That, and the leak I have when I fire the gun/hold in the trigger, which lasts about 1-2 seconds before going away. I changed every o-ring out. >.> I still have all my old ones, but yeah, every o-ring in the gun is new ATM.

    This brass part is what I have: http://imageshack.us/a/img255/1633/cimg1576h.jpg

    This is what I see when I looked on AGD.com at the on/off assembly: mpuGg8GlJjih2lqcJylow7A.jpg

    The visible o-ring on the outside of the bottom of this on/off: miVkN6Olr1rcg2SE3Nll_YA.jpg
    (the one I own) has room to move up and down, maybe 1 mm either way.

    Quote Originally Posted by brassmag View Post
    What valve are you using?

    You should never replace an oring in an automag valve unless its cracked and usless or missing..

    Auromag valve orings break in and get better with time. They can last forever if kept slightly lubed. 20 year old orings are the best.

    Dont over lube the valve, it dosent need much.

    It's like flooding a carburetor, you have lubed it to a point where it fails to hold pressure... dry it off dont lube it at all.

    Dont epect leaking out of a automag valve, after break in you will have less problems than any other gun on the market by far.
    Yeah, I was pretty frugal with the oil >.> and as mentioned above, I definately replaced every o-ring when I got my parts kit/automag. Oops =/
    Last edited by Stealthpanda; 09-12-2013 at 01:32 AM.

  4. #4
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    Level 10 or level 7. And that on/off looks fine.

  5. #5
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    Classic valve, level 10. The bottom on/off picture was a stock picture from google.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthpanda View Post
    Classic valve, level 10. The bottom on/off picture was a stock picture from google.
    Maybe move up a carrier? And any shims in it? It may be the level 10 with minor issues.

  7. #7
    What valve are you using?

    You should never replace an oring in an automag valve unless its cracked and usless or missing..

    Auromag valve orings break in and get better with time. They can last forever if kept slightly lubed. 20 year old orings are the best.

    Dont over lube the valve, it dosent need much.

    It's like flooding a carburetor, you have lubed it to a point where it fails to hold pressure... dry it off dont lube it at all.

    Dont epect leaking out of a automag valve, after break in you will have less problems than any other gun on the market by far.
    Last edited by brassmag; 09-12-2013 at 01:06 AM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthpanda View Post
    The spring pack in the back of the reg moves, is this normal? I may have used gun oil to lubricate this, in hindsight realizing it said "keep greased". One in the same, or a boo-boo?
    What kind of gun oil? Gun oil can eat the orings. Use only synthetic light oil made for pneumatic use. The oil/grease on the spring pack is only to keep it from getting moist and rusting. Grease sticks to the spring better than oil that gets blown off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthpanda View Post
    Also, the o-ring on the bottom of the bottom of the on/off has some wiggle room, even with using the proper o-ring. Again, normal?
    Are you sure you are using the large on-off oring and not the powertube tip oring by mistake? There will be some movement on the oring, but it should be snug on the on-off assembly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthpanda View Post
    And the top brass part to my on/off looks nothing like any of the current ones sold for an Automag classic. Again, probably an old part, but I didn't know if it was outdated, like in the case of the regulator piston.
    The older on-off tops were flat on top with an X cut on the bottom to pass air. The newer on-off tops are symmetrical so there is no top or bottom. They pass air out through holes from the center into an air passage that goes around the outside of the on-off top.



    If the mag leaks out the front but stops when you start to pull the trigger, it means the sealing edge of the carrier oring is very close to the level 10 bolt stem vent hole. If there are shims installed in the powertube, remove them. If there are no shims, it means your sear is worn out or you are missing your rail bushing.
    Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.

  9. #9
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    Gold cup gun oil. I put 1 drop in each of the holes on the bottom of the valve marked --Oil--.

    I could of sworn the diagram marked that o ring on the bottom of the on/off as "power tube o ring".
    http://www.paintball-atlantic.fr/pag..._Automag_c.gif

    Is there a difference in flow in the old one vs "new" style?

    I have thoroughly frustrated myself today, attempting to remove excess oil, make sure things are working as intended. I have to fiddle with the carrier/o ring again, as something isn't right. I am back to where I started before. Size 1 carrier is a smidge too tight, and 1.5 leaks immediately when I gas it up. No shims installed. Brand new sear. Rail bushing in place. New higher pressure regulator piston installed.

    I default back to: Whenever I feel like I have this figured out, I completely don't. I have studied air pathways. Got the gun to chrono about 250, when I read I needed a new regulator piston assembly. Got it, installed it, turned up the velocity, gun cycles, but leaks. Something cool I noticed, was that with the regulator piston assembly I purchased, AGD sent me 2 of a few different o rings. 2 Regulator piston, 2 power tube, 2 teflon on/off. Kudos to them, always appreciate freebies. I have purchased the newer style top on/off part, spring pack, and a misc screw I was missing for mag #2. I don't mind replacing things if they seem out of wack/broken, but its unfortunate to learn that some of these things (outside of the sear and reg piston assembly) were probably unneeded.

    It's weird. That leak that developed when I gas the gun up, from rest, goes away if you pull the trigger just slightly. Or changed tone if you press the tip of the bolt. I wasn't bothered by the leak that happens if you hold the trigger, as it went away in about a second or two. On page 4 of the official level 10 problem thread.. I will get this eventually. I appreciate the continued responses, as it seems I am just asking all the same questions that have been asked for the past 10 years. I apologize, but greatly appreciate the input. If I cannot figure this out, the classic valve, how will I ever figure out the X valve? ULT? Etc.
    Thank you all, again,
    Jason

    Pictures of my on/off (the o-ring in question):

    Notice how there is at least a 1mm gap between where the o-ring sits, and the entire groove it sits in.

    Entire on/off:


    Inside of my valve (where the on/off goes):

    Last edited by Stealthpanda; 09-12-2013 at 07:03 PM.

  10. #10
    From the way you describe the leak, I don' think it's your on/off assembly that's the problem there. However, that's a funky looking classic on/off.

  11. #11
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    IDK, I feel like once I started replacing the o rings on my on/off, I had more leaks at rest. IIRC, the two are related. Only the brass top part looks weird, everything else looks normal as far as 20 year old valves are concerned.

  12. #12
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    Just looks lime an old style on off to me. As for your leak. What you describe tells me its in your power tube stuff. Not the on off. And since I have no experience with a level 10. That's where my help ends. Lol.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthpanda View Post
    Gold cup gun oil. I put 1 drop in each of the holes on the bottom of the valve marked --Oil--.
    Gold cup oil is fine. The holes don't do anything. To get oil into the valve, you need to either wet the orings directly as you install them, or you need to put a couple of drops of oil at the valve inlet or ASA. Then you need to cycle the valve to blow the oil through it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthpanda View Post
    I could of sworn the diagram marked that o ring on the bottom of the on/off as "power tube o ring".
    http://www.paintball-atlantic.fr/pag..._Automag_c.gif
    It is a powertube oring. The one I mentioned that it shouldn't be is the powertube tip oring. They are two different orings, the tip oring being slightly larger than the powertube oring.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthpanda View Post
    Is there a difference in flow in the old one vs "new" style?
    No. The old one works fine. Its just easier to use the newer one because you can't accidentally put it in upside down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthpanda View Post
    I have thoroughly frustrated myself today, attempting to remove excess oil, make sure things are working as intended. I have to fiddle with the carrier/o ring again, as something isn't right. I am back to where I started before. Size 1 carrier is a smidge too tight, and 1.5 leaks immediately when I gas it up. No shims installed. Brand new sear. Rail bushing in place. New higher pressure regulator piston installed.

    It's weird. That leak that developed when I gas the gun up, from rest, goes away if you pull the trigger just slightly. Or changed tone if you press the tip of the bolt.
    When you pull the trigger slightly, the tip of the sear pushes the bolt back slightly as it rotates down. This pushes the bolt stem vent hole farther back in the powertube carrier past the sealing edge of the oring. This indicates that the bolt is sitting too far forward. Since you have a new sear and have your rail bushing installed, I don't know what the issue is. One thing that you might try is to take out your carrier and remove theoring. Get some 600 grit sand paper. Put the sandpaper on a flat surface facing up. Rub the front of the carrier on the sandpaper against the flat surface and take a couple of thousandths of metal off. Reinstall it. This should allow the carrier to sit farther forward and seal the bolt stem vent hole while at rest. If you don't want to do that to your carrier, you can do the same thing to your powertube tip instead only sand the back or it.

  14. #14
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    If you have been only putting oil in the hole in the bottom, that could very well be your issue as well. I would suggest trying putting several drops of oil into the asa, air up and fire off a dozen or so times as AThomas suggested. In order to overoil it, you have to put a LOT of oil in it.

  15. #15
    Yeah, I agree with OPBN. I don't think you can really overdo it with oil. If you think you put in more than necessary, then just take the barrel off and dry-fire a few dozen times (until you stop seeing a cloud of oily mist). You may want to take off the valve at that point and wipe the exterior of everything down to remove the residue, but the valve internals should stay well lubed.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by athomas View Post
    Gold cup oil is fine. The holes don't do anything. To get oil into the valve, you need to either wet the orings directly as you install them, or you need to put a couple of drops of oil at the valve inlet or ASA. Then you need to cycle the valve to blow the oil through it.

    When I thought I fixed it the first time, about 2 weeks ago, I put between 4-6 drops in my asa, and dry fired about 30-40 times. When it started to leak again, I replaced the regulator piston, sear, all on/off orings replaced as well. Slight leak down the barrel at rest, so I switched carrier o rings. Grabbed the one that was giving me slight issues from before, I can switch back, or just start the install process again. My HPA tank is empty, so I can't test anything at the moment - so naturally i'm irritated.

    It is a powertube oring. The one I mentioned that it shouldn't be is the powertube tip oring. They are two different orings, the tip oring being slightly larger than the powertube oring.

    Yeah, I checked. I was hoping I wasn't crazy.

    No. The old one works fine. Its just easier to use the newer one because you can't accidentally put it in upside down.

    Still purchased the newer one, >_> because why not have more spare mag parts laying around lol.

    When you pull the trigger slightly, the tip of the sear pushes the bolt back slightly as it rotates down. This pushes the bolt stem vent hole farther back in the powertube carrier past the sealing edge of the oring. This indicates that the bolt is sitting too far forward. Since you have a new sear and have your rail bushing installed, I don't know what the issue is. One thing that you might try is to take out your carrier and remove theoring. Get some 600 grit sand paper. Put the sandpaper on a flat surface facing up. Rub the front of the carrier on the sandpaper against the flat surface and take a couple of thousandths of metal off. Reinstall it. This should allow the carrier to sit farther forward and seal the bolt stem vent hole while at rest. If you don't want to do that to your carrier, you can do the same thing to your powertube tip instead only sand the back or it.

    I honestly don't want to sand anything down, whether it be the pt tip, or the carrier I should be using. This just doesn't sound like normal operating procedures, and honestly scares me. I had it where I wanted it, but over time the gun developed a leak. Maybe after a full tank or dry firing? 72ci/3000psi. I wasn't bothered by the leak when I hold the trigger in, because that in itself is not normal operation. The amount of air loss in a fraction of a fraction of a second between shots ISN'T going to affect the overall efficiency of the mag. Maybe lose 5-10 shots from my tank? But what will is leaking at rest. I did NOT have this issue roughly a week ago. Something broke in, and as mentioned above by a post, the older the o ring the better. Fresh o rings chaffing my bum? Maybe so. Removing the carrier with my tool maybe nicked the o ring?
    Derpy hooves

  17. #17
    If you have one, install a level 7 bolt and PT tip. If the leak down the barrel goes away (and I suspect it will) then your first leak is being caused by the carrier o-ring having worn in, go down 1/2 a carrier size. I don't know about the "older is better" school of o-ring thought, that has not been my experience.

    I suspect your second leak is on/off related. That bottom o-ring looks like it's just floating there. Thinking you need a thicker one there.

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