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Thread: First strike capable automag

  1. #31
    I say worry about the practicality later. This is a proof of concept, and a pretty awesome one. I'm sure Goatboy already has a more efficient loading system in mind.

    For some reason I would like to see this load like a cap gun. Pump players carry dozens of 10 round tubes. Maybe this could have a 6 round preloaded ring that the player could carry a whole bunch of?

    Just musing.

  2. #32
    The design was sort of parameterized for # of chambers and bore diameter, with a few "that looks about right"isms thrown in. (Hence why I donít have outright measurements.) I originally actually started with 5 chambers. So yeah, I could pop one out with x number of chambers, with x possibly being over 9000.

    There are lots of variations of how to feed the paint (including a speed-loader like device from the back, a front-loader like on the DRV or that Krotary rifle, and even possibly a q-pod-like device), but in light of my current manufacturing level (level zero), and play style, I decided to stick with a simple, implementable design and just defer to manual dexterity. My reload time currently is dominated by rummaging around in an improperly sized dump pouch for the task. This is a fixable problem. Iím making one of those carriers like I saw on MCB, which I think will work great.

    The capacity is a tradeoff against being able to continuously top up combined with low profile. I can literally reload while posted on someone, where I typically have all the time in the world to top up, and this gun I can top up one-handed. I can even top it up while moving.

    Magazines are fine and all, but the problem is they require 2 hands to reload once youíve run them dry. I havenít seen a magazine based setup where you can reload with one hand. If you try to bring enough mags to not have to worry about it, chances are I will make it to the 50 before you do.

    The closest to this is the DAM with a double-mag clip. You can change mags, and then an empty mag is available for reload right in front of you, allowing you to possibly reload, one handed, while posted on your opponents. Itís still not ideal though, and mid-mag changes on paintball guns are currently still a mess. And the DAM is too bulky for front player use. And itís Not an Automag.

    I actually played with the thing today. It took me 2 games to get used to it, but after that I found my rhythm. No problems except for me firing that 6th shot in the first game and getting the 7th shot in the chamber sideways, which I had to fix while in the snake.

    "Accuracy by aiming."


    Definitely not on the A-Team.

  3. #33
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    Saw this on PBN

    Quote Originally Posted by Fubarius View Post
    You can make FS rounds do a 90 degree turn, but you'd have to position the mag out the front since they like to make the turn with the noses of the rounds towards the curve...


    However, the breach drop bolt of the phantom is NOT well suited for FS rounds. You'd be quite likely to snag on the skirt of the round above the one you are feeding. This is an issue with a lot of the new mag fed semi's, and they just have slightly too big of bolts.

    Best to leave the dreams of First Strike sniper shots to the bore drop pumps.

    To leave feedback: Click seller/buyers name, Click feedback score, Click leave feedback

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by BTAutoMag View Post
    Saw this on PBN
    Yeah I saw that too. No followup on whether or not it actually works or if it's ever been mated to a gun. Problem still exists -- when you pull the follower back to load it, the stack loses pressure, and you'll only get 1 shot, and the next will either be empty or a round will fall into the breech sideways. I know someone who made a straight FS magazine, and apparently it suffers this problem.


    So here's one of the games from today. Just a casual rec game. No misfeeds or anything of the sort; most of my reload time is me fumbling with 10rd tubes and pouch and not the actual reload, and a few times I reload while posted. I did get like a 100+ft single headshot through a small side window of the pill box/deer blind at 1:00 though.


  5. #35
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    That is so awesome!

    Any chance of open sourcing the files so others can print their own if you don't plan on making a run?
    faster is better...

  6. #36
    Hi, Iím GoatBoy, and Iím addicted to FS rounds.





    Ran around with FS rounds today. Also tested out some equipment; the FS pez dispensers were still a little tight so I need to loosen them up.

    Also managed to break the ends off my impeller paddle, which looks like this:



    I had been playing with a broken one without realizing so I was likeÖ well, what happens when I break the rest of them off?

    Well, the thing actually still feeds perfectly fine, but goes into free-spin (thatís what causes them to break in the first place) after the 5th shot instead of the 6th shot.

    This was not surprising; I figured it was going to happen since the same problem exists with the q-loader impellers, except the plastic they use is even stronger than the photopolymer I used for this one. Itís really a pretty minor deal and there are a number of possible solutions.

    Easiest solution is to make one out of metal (or just back it in metal or CF) and be done with it, but Iím batting .125 in getting metal parts made, so Iím going to beef it up a tad and give the nylon a try next.

    Iíve also given some thought to releasing the design. What Iíve decided is that Iím waiting on an external trigger event (which Iím not going to divulge). If that trigger happens, Iíll release the source and you guys can take over the thing and do whatever you want.

  7. #37
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    why not use an impeller from a Tippmann Cyclone kit? those are while 2 tiered can be found in metal.

  8. #38
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    or in a soft pliable version

  9. #39
    Oh geez why didn't I think of that.

    I'll take a look at the part; I suspect it won't work because of different dimensions and different required part right in the middle, but that's a damn good idea.


    Ehh, nope, those paddles are 5-shot and not 6, and they're not the right dimension.

    Making 'em out of hard rubber would be fantastic though...

    In light of that, maybe I'll 3D print a mold instead of the part itself and mold my own rubber parts...
    Last edited by GoatBoy; 10-06-2013 at 08:09 PM.

  10. #40
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    youre welcome

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoatBoy View Post
    Oh geez why didn't I think of that.

    I'll take a look at the part; I suspect it won't work because of different dimensions and different required part right in the middle, but that's a damn good idea.


    Ehh, nope, those paddles are 5-shot and not 6, and they're not the right dimension.

    Making 'em out of hard rubber would be fantastic though...

    In light of that, maybe I'll 3D print a mold instead of the part itself and mold my own rubber parts...
    they make a flexible filament for your printer, its really nice stuff.
    My sydarm weighs less than yours!!!

  12. #42
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    This is awesome! Any chance you could make a mounting bracket for a Warp left ULE body? If so, we wouldn't need to hack a SS body as you did. I'd love to have a kit like that on my warped pump Mag!

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpsd View Post
    This is awesome! Any chance you could make a mounting bracket for a Warp left ULE body? If so, we wouldn't need to hack a SS body as you did. I'd love to have a kit like that on my warped pump Mag!
    I have that mount already made.
    im working on a larger automated drum
    just have to work positioning out. 12 rnds so far.

  14. #44
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    Well, I'll be in Seattle next week so if you want some funding to your project (by selling that warp left kit with the 6 rounds drum) let me know.

  15. #45
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    Nice work GoatBoy! This is really cool!



    Quote Originally Posted by knownothingmags View Post
    I have that mount already made.
    im working on a larger automated drum
    just have to work positioning out. 12 rnds so far.
    KNM...
    Did you have to mill out the feed port in the warp ULE body? Or does there happen to be enough clearance in there with the feedneck removed that the FS round will go through?

  16. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by knownothingmags View Post
    I have that mount already made.
    im working on a larger automated drum
    just have to work positioning out. 12 rnds so far.
    any pics man?

  17. #47
    Yeah, I’ve seen the flexible filament. Now if only I actually *had* a 3d printer…

    So you guys seriously cutting into ULE bodies to make them FS compatible?

    I strongly recommend against it as there is potential for ruin on many levels. But if you've got the cheddar, good luck!

    As far as pump mags -- if fields continue with the fruity rules that allow pump guns to chrono higher than semis... just imagine a compact pump FS Automag chrono'd at 300fps in the hands of a bona fide front player (against a field of semis chrono'd at 280 with normal paint). That is *not* going to be pretty. I predict it will be bad enough for them to revisit those rules.

  18. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by need4reebs View Post
    any pics man?
    rotorwheel.pdf

    sorry very basic wheel still getting bugs worked.
    my EFIN 3D printer isn't here yet.

    *Edit: the adapter was cannibalized and is being added to for the clip rotor im trying to make.
    so I was wrong I don't have the warp body adapter yet for something like this.
    but once I get into it ill mock one up.
    Last edited by knownothingmags; 10-07-2013 at 10:14 PM.

  19. #49
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    huh?

  20. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by knownothingmags View Post
    have you seen any possibility of a bigger drum? more like a tommy gun size?

    ill see if I can get our printer up and up again.
    Tommy gun size one would be awesome...................... good job GoatBoy

  21. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by El Zilcho View Post
    What is even more impressive is that given the state of your entertainment center, you developed this back in the mid to late 90s
    Kind of disappointed by the lack of a Sega Saturn...
    Steve Shuey , Team Crimson Reign

  22. #52
    I've got a Sega Genesis...

    I was making some tweaks to the model tonight and rendered up 6, 8, 10, and 12 chamber versions. Past 14 I seem to have a bug in my code which gives the compiler grief.

    mockups.png

    8 rounds looks manageable. At 10 and up, the single diverter geometry looks broken. The space the round needs to traverse appears too large. It can probably be fixed with multiple diverters.

    Personally, I'm going to stick with 6-8 rounders. Larger than that and you're paying a penalty for all that dead space in the middle as well as more "dead zone". And the torsion spring probably needs to change. All that extra space in the middle does give me another idea though...

    An alternate design if you like huge drum mags is something like this (not mine):



    It's not really a rotary loader; it's more like a curved conventional magazine. Still all the same faults as a typical magazine -- everything has to be pushed from the back by a single pusher, and you can't top up the drum while it's in use. But something like that might be up your alley. Massive "dead zone". And... probably going to be pretty expensive to 3d print, unless you own your printer.
    Last edited by GoatBoy; 10-09-2013 at 03:30 AM.

  23. #53
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    that 6 rounder that you already made and use in your videos would be my choice. keeps everything compact and simple. no need for bigger drum/mag really. great job man!!!

  24. #54
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    yeah I have my own printer, we will see what I can get made.

  25. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoatBoy View Post
    I've got a Sega Genesis...

    I was making some tweaks to the model tonight and rendered up 6, 8, 10, and 12 chamber versions. Past 14 I seem to have a bug in my code which gives the compiler grief.

    mockups.png

    8 rounds looks manageable. At 10 and up, the single diverter geometry looks broken. The space the round needs to traverse appears too large. It can probably be fixed with multiple diverters.

    Personally, I'm going to stick with 6-8 rounders. Larger than that and you're paying a penalty for all that dead space in the middle as well as more "dead zone". And the torsion spring probably needs to change. All that extra space in the middle does give me another idea though...

    An alternate design if you like huge drum mags is something like this (not mine):



    It's not really a rotary loader; it's more like a curved conventional magazine. Still all the same faults as a typical magazine -- everything has to be pushed from the back by a single pusher, and you can't top up the drum while it's in use. But something like that might be up your alley. Massive "dead zone". And... probably going to be pretty expensive to 3d print, unless you own your printer.
    I like your design, simple,
    I can print up to about 8 inches, figure the pinwheel needs to be less since there will be a casing around it.

    if you need stuff printed, or if the one you use isn't readily available, ill try to see what I can do.

    soon to come printed automag

    thankyou,
    KNM.

  26. #56
    My impression is that owning a 3d printer is not quite what it's cracked up to be at this time. Good luck with yours; hopefully you won't need to do too much calibration.

    I got my nylon based impellers from Shapeways, and I have to say they knocked them out of the park on this one. (Can't say the same about the rail that I got back from them as well.)



    I shortened the diverter to give the impeller more meat, and now it seems pretty strong. It's not metal-strong, but I think this should be strong enough. It's slightly more flexible than the photopolymer, which tends to crack and shatter instead of flexing.

    I also put the original rear plate back on. It came from Shapeways deformed, but after a while it kind of just... settled down. So now it's flat enough to actually use. The previous one I was using was actually a privacy filter for a computer monitor, but whatever they did to that plastic gave it a high coefficient of friction so I decided to ditch it.

    Here I am testing with dummy rounds. Note how little force is required to feed the rounds; I'm giving it just a partial wind with my thumb. If everything is designed and made properly, it takes very, very little force to reliably and quickly feed FS rounds.


  27. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoatBoy View Post
    My impression is that owning a 3d printer is not quite what it's cracked up to be at this time. Good luck with yours; hopefully you won't need to do too much calibration.

    I got my nylon based impellers from Shapeways, and I have to say they knocked them out of the park on this one. (Can't say the same about the rail that I got back from them as well.)


    I didn't know you were having people do your stuff for you, yeah they have a nice powder 3D printer, they are tits,
    ill have one of those soon,
    calibrations is nothing on mine,
    and a quick acetone vaporizing on them and they are smooth as glass.
    im working on gears right now, nothing for a purpose, makin a gear heart for the wife, in my thread you can see the dye damn prototype stock mount im workin on, needs some tweekin, then ima make 5 of them and put them through there paces and see how much it takes to break em. final test will be with a hammer.

  28. #58
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    Sweet build, good thinking. Have you thought of having a fixed rear plate that has 6 holes drilled in where the rounds sit at rest. The holes could be slightly smaller diameter than the FS rounds so once they are pushed in they would not back out. Then you could see how many rounds were in the drum without counting and you wouldn't have to move the rear plate to reload. Just a thought, it may cause rounds to get stuck and not spin around the drum freely if the rear plate doesn't move.

  29. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by cousinkong View Post
    Sweet build, good thinking. Have you thought of having a fixed rear plate that has 6 holes drilled in where the rounds sit at rest. The holes could be slightly smaller diameter than the FS rounds so once they are pushed in they would not back out. Then you could see how many rounds were in the drum without counting and you wouldn't have to move the rear plate to reload. Just a thought, it may cause rounds to get stuck and not spin around the drum freely if the rear plate doesn't move.
    That was actually what I tried to do at first. I wanted to make it completely open in the back with maybe some form of detent holding them in once pressed in, but I never could quite figure out how to really make it work properly with the skirt. The real benefit actually being that the "back plate" winds up being one piece with the impeller and thus the whole thing is way stronger despite the diverter cuts. That, and I could then build a speed-loader.

    Having 6 gaping holes in the back is also not so good for keeping dirt out of the system as well, and I do my fair share of crawling around with this thing.

    Truthfully, I wanted a clear acrylic back plate to make it easier to see the empty chambers.

    Not sure what you mean by rounds getting stuck or whatever; the rear plate is only touching the impeller and drive shaft. It is minimally touching the outer housing. So basically, when the impeller moves, the back plate moves as there's nothing else to resist the movement. However it still spins easily when I push it directly because the friction between it and the impeller should still be low. So if I leave the gate straddling two chambers, that gate remains straddling two chambers, and no round ever escapes.

    Only cases of jams so far are when I forget to wind the thing in between games, or when I take that 6th safety shot.

  30. #60
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    Very cool!

    Out of curiosity, what kind of valve setup is that? It looks like a vigilante reg on the back half? Apologies if you already addressed it, I just got done working and only watched the video and it caught my eye.

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