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Thread: EMAGs in the real world?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frizzle Fry View Post
    "Heavy" is relative. It's on par with other electros of the era in which it was released. If you ever carried an Angel LCD, AKA Excalibur, Shocker 4x4 or Gen-E matrix into a tournament, you won't be shocked by the weight. If you're used to "lugging" around an Ego11 you might be in for a surprise though.

    i do still shoot all of these types of guns on a regular basis. bringing up the ego 11 is exactly the point ... modern guns are much much smaller and lighter.

    If you actually know how to tune your Level 10 there's no problem with consistent laning; it's very simple to do and anyone on here would be happy to help walk you through it. If that's too tough for you, you can use literally any of the electronic loaders on the market in tandem with an L7 or tuned-down L10 you will also be fine. There are very few situations that call for over 14bps, a speed that any loader sold these days (other than maybe one of the many lemon V-Maxs I've seen) can keep up with reliably.

    there will always be a skip.

    and all loaders skip.


    No denying that almost every electronic marker is more efficient (I only get about 1600 shots off a 88/45), and you'd want to get your board flashed to XMOD so that you have the necessary modes - those would be my only concerns when it comes to staying competitive. In the sense that newer markers are lighter in weight, that's completely subjective. I'd like to hear what else "every way" entails.

    well we already covered eyes, size and, weight, and you bring up efficiency ... what other variables do you really need?

    my emag was Xmod
    ^^^^
    loose cars and fast women

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    real men don't care about the weight, cause we have things called muscles...

    better is a subjective question. Gordon has an opposite opinion, cause he likes to start shtuff. though they are heavier, so what? you can guarantee no chops with a L10. eyes and electronics can go bad, never heard of a L10 going bad. there are certainly cheaper alternatives, but that's like comparing a Chrysler K car or any other mass produced cheap vehicle;Kia, Geo, whatever(the Ion of the paintball world) to a McLaren F1. they are both cars, but somehow most people will pick the F1 over the K car.

    plus, its fun to walk onto the field with an emag and show the people not only what a Emag can do, but show them that a gun that is older than a majority of the players can keep up with nothing more than what it started with.
    my opinion is to not make excuses for my equipment.

    i love mags, cockers, and other terrible guns ... because they are terrible. all the fun that is shooting a classic gun, is because it isn't as good as a modern one. the more we embrace that classic guns are worse, and thats why they are more fun, the better off we will be as a community. the longer we play the appologist game, and continue despite all evidence to contrary that classic guns are "just as good" we doom ourselves, and these great guns, and this great history, to the history books.

    credentials:

    my collection at one point:



    shooting my RT classic at living legends this year:



    shooting my karni at living legends last year:



    shooting my merlin at local big game:



    Angel LCD 2k3 special edition (love this gun):



    Epic (really fun gun, sad i sold it):



    start ****?

    i merely see classic guns for what they actually are. and love them because of it.
    Last edited by cockerpunk; 09-23-2013 at 09:15 AM.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgop2.0 View Post
    People think of a switch pull as a digital 1 or 0. This is not the case. Software can and does set a threshold for the voltage pull at which a signal is considered a 1 or a 0. Example: the micro controller I used to set up my switch listener defaults to 1.5v on a 5v (in actuality a 3.5v) pin. Above 1.5v and it is considered a 1, below, a 0. To date, every electro I have tested (15 so far) reports more signals to the solenoid than signals from the switch. They achieve this by lowering the threshold during higher rates of fire. This listens for switch noise and reports false signals. Further, they all hold multiple shots in queue during high rof. Further they all average out the signals to produce a consistent rof. The last part is IMO a necessity preventing human control interfering with the markers mechanical limitations. The end result is markers that fire more than you pull the trigger, fire when you are not pulling the trigger, and fire only when all of the markers systems are prepared to do so. No need to learn the trigger, software does it for you.

    Modern electros do not read trigger pulls to shoot. They read trigger pulls to learn the intent of the shooter so they can handle the dirty work. I can and have proven this. I'm not sharing my results (because the only industry entity that I brought this up to threatened to sue me and I simply don't care enough [and can't afford] to take it that far). I did the testing to validate my theories for my own purposes. If you would like to test it as well I can tell you how. post it.

    Further, you don't need empirical data. Logic alone will tell you that "cheating" is the inevitable result of competition among electronic marker manufacturers. It costs tens of thousands of dollars to R&D a new valve/bolt system. It costs about 10 seconds worth of man hours to program your boards to lower the voltage threshold during X cps. And nobody will bust them because the "pro" leagues are owned by the industry. Low cost improvement with zero chance of backlash. Who wouldn't do it?

    As far as the RT thing goes. A "response trigger" does what you are talking about. A "runaway trigger" such as a heavily shimmed ULT will shot itself. But a "Reactive Trigger" merely pushes back on your finger. It does not cycle the sear both ways for you. You have to maintain positive pressure against the trigger to cycle it and relax enough between shots to let it push you back. This is 1 pull 1 shot even if it is sickening easy to accomplish. Is it a grey area? Sure. But compared to the egregious cheating being done by the electro's it's nothing.

    Bloopers: Yes. In some cases (particularly with a tight bore fit) the shot that chuffed does not even make it out of the barrel at all.
    don't all triggering systems mechanical or otherwise interpret the intent of the shooter, and then do the dirty work of shooting for them? isnt a trigger simply a device for indicating to the gun that you want to fire?

    not really a technical question, really a philosophical one.

    Also, bull **** on the threatened to be sued thing. I have been threatened with being sued by at least 3 different paintball companies, two of them on multiple occasions, and in legal documents. never stopped me from publishing everything i have.
    Last edited by cockerpunk; 09-23-2013 at 09:34 AM.

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
    don't all triggering systems mechanical or otherwise interpret the intent of the shooter, and then do the dirty work of shooting for them? isnt a trigger simply a device for indicating to the gun that you want to fire?

    not really a technical question, really a philosophical one.

    Also, bull **** on the threatened to be sued thing. I have been threatened with being sued by at least 3 different paintball companies, two of them on multiple occasions, and in legal documents. never stopped me from publishing everything i have.
    I agree that it is a philisophical question. But if the trigger mechanism is programed to report false signals just because it is detecting that the intent of the shooter is to shoot really fast, should we just abandon the pretense. These guns out shoot the person pulling the trigger.

    Your motives in you research are intirely different than mine. I intended too demonstrate that these systems were cheating in order to bring a ic free electronic trigger to market. The company I shared my results with politely reminded me how litigious this industry is. They indicated that it would be less expensive for them to sue me into silence than to fight the suits they would face if they tried to push the product I was offering.by attempting to have current systems declared tourny illegal.

  5. #35
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    @MPSD: That looks interesting. How did the CF tube wear over the long term? Was it attached to anything or just trapped between the remnants of the ULE body and the valve?

    And that setup clocked in at 2lb even? without a barrel?

    **why is "c-l-o-c-k-e-d" censored? Seems a touch aggresive on the nanny software....being as it's a pretty common and benign term in technical circles. ...oh...is it locked that gets the face?
    faster is better...

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2xFast View Post
    @MPSD: That looks interesting. How did the CF tube wear over the long term? Was it attached to anything or just trapped between the remnants of the ULE body and the valve?

    And that setup clocked in at 2lb even? without a barrel?

    **why is "c-l-o-c-k-e-d" censored? Seems a touch aggresive on the nanny software....being as it's a pretty common and benign term in technical circles. ...oh...is it locked that gets the face?
    The CF tube is held in place by a small strech of aluminum under it with an o-ring, the front of the original body (which is held by a bolt) and the valve. It's pretty sturdy.

    As for the weight, I remember it was really, really close to 2lbs. Maybe just a hint over it as pictured. Note that the CF Deadlywind barrel is super light (like a couple ounces). The AKA feedneck and the DW ASA are ridiculously light as well, even though the NDZ ASA would be a hint lighter.

  7. #37
    I wonder if a large chunk of this discussion could be avoided if you guys just decided to stop thinking in terms of "classic" vs whatever.

    Imagine if calling stuff "classic" was meaningless and the idea was purged from all your minds.

    What would you have left to discuss?


    Quote Originally Posted by 2xFast View Post
    Overall I'm leaning heavily towards Emag. I'm never going to play competitively...might as well have something funky in my hands right?
    I recommend the complete opposite -- buy a completely unremarkable gun and just go ahead and play competitively with it.

    Why *wouldn't* you want to be competitive on the field? Are you mistaking this for some sort of beauty pageant? Are you hoping to be the belle of the ball?



    clocked, lol.
    "Accuracy by aiming."


    Definitely not on the A-Team.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoatBoy View Post
    I recommend the complete opposite -- buy a completely unremarkable gun and just go ahead and play competitively with it.

    Why *wouldn't* you want to be competitive on the field? Are you mistaking this for some sort of beauty pageant? Are you hoping to be the belle of the ball?



    clocked, lol.
    I think he meant he doesn't intend to play a tourney of some sort, like I did when I first mentioned I played the Brazilian PB Cup back in 2006. Just that.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgop2.0 View Post
    I agree that it is a philisophical question. But if the trigger mechanism is programed to report false signals just because it is detecting that the intent of the shooter is to shoot really fast, should we just abandon the pretense. These guns out shoot the person pulling the trigger.

    Your motives in you research are intirely different than mine. I intended too demonstrate that these systems were cheating in order to bring a ic free electronic trigger to market. The company I shared my results with politely reminded me how litigious this industry is. They indicated that it would be less expensive for them to sue me into silence than to fight the suits they would face if they tried to push the product I was offering.by attempting to have current systems declared tourny illegal.
    in the days of ramping multiple trigger events are moot.

    also, i seem to remember warpig had a great article in 1999 or 2000 on turbo mode, which shows in very much detail exactly what you are describing, nothing new. microswitches bounce, any kind of switch bounces. i guess i simply fail to see why this is a problem with them. and, again, in the days of ramping and full auto, the point it totally and completely moot anyway.

    i think this is the warpig article: http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/turbo/
    and another that displays the same phenomina to jusify rebound mode: http://www.warpig.com/paintball/tech...nerve/rebound/

    last link has better pictures
    Last edited by cockerpunk; 09-23-2013 at 03:04 PM.

  10. #40
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    None of my local fields allow ramping or full auto for recreational play. Since that is all I play, I would say that the point may not be "totally and completely moot". As it pertains to tournaments, I agree but to say "totally and completely moot" I don't feel is fair.
    Last edited by El Zilcho; 09-23-2013 at 03:20 PM.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Zilcho View Post
    None of my local fields allow ramping or full auto for recreational play. Since that is all I play, I would say that the point may not be "totally and completely moot".
    do they not have a ROF cap?

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoatBoy View Post
    Why *wouldn't* you want to be competitive on the field? Are you mistaking this for some sort of beauty pageant? Are you hoping to be the belle of the ball?
    Same reason I play pump I guess. I'm looking for what makes the day more fun, and that's not necessarily the "best" gun. Just something to spice things up.

    My motivation in this case is probably a combo of a desire to play with a good RT trigger, and to see if I can actually get an emag below 2lbs.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
    do they not have a ROF cap?
    I have not seen a stated ROF cap nor has a cap ever been verbally communicated to me at any of the fields. They only state semi only, no RT with mechanicals.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Zilcho View Post
    I have not seen a stated ROF cap nor has a cap ever been verbally communicated to me at any of the fields. They only state semi only, no RT with mechanicals.
    wow, that must be the wild west .... never herd of a place that has no ROF cap ....

    the good news is that electronics still does not mean you an inherently cheating, even by pgop2.0's definition. effective use of filtering can easily make them 1 shot per pull.

    the trouble you will have (and thus why simple max ROF rules are typically in place), is effective policing of those settings.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
    wow, that must be the wild west .... never herd of a place that has no ROF cap ....

    the good news is that electronics still does not mean you an inherently cheating, even by pgop2.0's definition. effective use of filtering can easily make them 1 shot per pull.

    the trouble you will have (and thus why simple max ROF rules are typically in place), is effective policing of those settings.
    I really like the idea of anything goes with a ROF cap, it make a lot of sense to me. I actually just contacted one of the fields to see if perhaps there is some rule I am not aware of.

    Isn't that pgop2.0s point though, filtering can make them one shot/pull but that filtering is not being implemented.

  16. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Zilcho View Post
    I really like the idea of anything goes with a ROF cap, it make a lot of sense to me. I actually just contacted one of the fields to see if perhaps there is some rule I am not aware of.

    Isn't that pgop2.0s point though, filtering can make them one shot/pull but that filtering is not being implemented.
    that is by choice of the user however. the gun offers you a legal one shot one pull mode, all of them do. it is up to user to select otherwise.

  17. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
    that is by choice of the user however. the gun offers you a legal one shot one pull mode, all of them do. it is up to user to select otherwise.
    I didn't realize that pgop2.0 was referring to any specific modes, I understood the issue as manufacturers are, by default, setting the filtering in a manner that allows for more shots than trigger pulls in semi settings. Not to the degree of one shot 4 balls on your 1st trigger pull but once you are really giving it the business you might get a few extra BPS without technically being in ramping or some other mode.

  18. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Zilcho View Post
    I didn't realize that pgop2.0 was referring to any specific modes, I understood the issue as manufacturers are, by default, setting the filtering in a manner that allows for more shots than trigger pulls in semi settings. Not to the degree of one shot 4 balls on your 1st trigger pull but once you are really giving it the business you might get a few extra BPS without technically being in ramping or some other mode.
    well the issue is switch bouncing, which yes, as far as a i know, every single electronic gun offers a level of switch bounce filtering that will make the gun 1 shot 1 pull.

  19. #49
    All of the markers I have tested have effectively scalled back the debounce as the rate of actual trigger pulls increases. These have all been set t(by their owners) to 12bps tourny legal semi.

  20. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
    wow, that must be the wild west .... never herd of a place that has no ROF cap ....

    the good news is that electronics still does not mean you an inherently cheating, even by pgop2.0's definition. effective use of filtering can easily make them 1 shot per pull.

    the trouble you will have (and thus why simple max ROF rules are typically in place), is effective policing of those settings.
    well when you step out of your hole, there is a lot of fields that do not limit ROF or modes. the West Point Cadets do not have mode or RoF limits, as they see that the more paint that flies, the more money they get from paint sales, which is what the ENTIRE industry was going for in the glory days of who is the fastest wins at the tournaments. more paint equals more money for the manufacturers.

    that is still left up to the player to NOT cheat by setting the gun to ramp, to not go FA or other bonus modes that could result in an uncontrollable gun, but most importantly, to have field refs that can not only recognize what those modes are, but will stand up to the players and remove those guns or those players.

    also, i can offer up 3 different boards that do not have bounce limits or switch filtering. guess you really need to check your facts before making a statement.

  21. #51
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    Weight is completely subjective. Some people enjoy a heavier or larger gun and play better with one. I have yet to encounter a marker that is so physically heavy or large that a normal-sized person who plays physical sports is going to be so fatigued after carrying it through a game that it would impede on their ability to continue playing. Half of my teammates used to carry around Shocker 4x4s with Shredder 3000s, 114ci tanks and pods galore - nobody pulled any muscles or passed out on the field. I won't deny that to some players a lighter or smaller marker is an advantage, but to others it's a disadvantage.

    As for the eyes, I view them as a vestigial piece of gun technology. They came about when electronic markers started outshooting the loaders on the market. In 1999 many tournaments and leagues allowed uncapped semi and capped ramping (anywhere from 9bps to 20bps) but HALO Bs wouldn't be released until 2002 and Revvys just couldn't do it. That's when the garage Angel eye conversions started, Bob Long made the Intimidator with eyes as a standard feature, and very quickly they became a must-have in production markers along with massive stovepipe feednecks which allowed longer bursts of fire. Since then loader technology has grown in leaps and bounds. I've run guns (Angels, Mags, Egos, Matrix) blind at 14bps with agitated (not forcefed) loaders and gone through several cases in a day of play without a chop - the same can be said of many of the guys with whom I play (some with forcefed loaders, others with agitated). That may only be anecdotal evidence, but it's not going to convince me to run around installing eyes on my markers that don't have them currently, or to build a marker around that technology.

    I would also argue that "newer is better" rule doesn't hold water. Case in point, I have a Gen 2 Intimidator with about 215,000 shots on the counter, and it's never been rebuilt - it shoots 14bps without chops, gets about 1500 shots off a 68/45, and has a screen which allows for easy mode selection and setting adjustments. I bought a brand new Gen 5 Intimidator (Vice) and it met the basic demands of play by shooting at 14bps and it got a mere 250 more shots off the same tank. The problem was that it was less reliable all around; velocity was less consistent, it developed leaks around the valve frequently, and programing/setup was (relatively) a nightmare. Granted many new markers beat their predecessors but certainly not all of them.

    I agree 100% about efficiency, that can be a real disadvantage. Shooting roughly a half a case on a 68/45 is not acceptable for tournament play, and isn't practical for "big games" and events. Granted there are larger tanks and efficiency mods, but that's really a bandaid not a solution, and the latter isn't readily available for all platforms. I only play recreationally now so filling up between games isn't bad, but for events I tend to bring more efficient markers with me because I know that my mags love the fill station and they don't exactly plant them in the middle of the field. I don't believe mags are the be-all end-all, nor do I think they are the best, I just don't believe they're ready to be termed uncompetitive on any grounds other than efficiency.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    that is still left up to the player to NOT cheat by setting the gun to ramp, to not go FA or other bonus modes that could result in an uncontrollable gun, but most importantly, to have field refs that can not only recognize what those modes are, but will stand up to the players and remove those guns or those players.
    I sold a pile of "Super 7" DM cheater chips that were used in the tournament,code activated. I don't condone cheating but these were slick and made it by the judges, I happened to get my hands on some. They were a simple add-a-shot (early) ramping with a high ROF cap and a discrete activation that would be almost impossible to activate unintentionally.

    I also remember a buddies Angel LCD had a high-ROF full-auto mode that sounded like the sort of irregular staccato of a person walking a semi or (old add-a-shot) ramping marker. Again, it was activated discretely, and it's almost impossible to catch. Very sneaky, only ever used for funsies on the recball scene.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    also, i can offer up 3 different boards that do not have bounce limits or switch filtering. guess you really need to check your facts before making a statement.
    QFT

  22. #52
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    I use my emag whenever I can. I love it and it gets lots of looks on the field. Its always nice to have something different than everyone else, and it works so well.

    I never have had issues with my level 10 since I installed it in both of my mags when it was a beta test. They give me a nice edge on the field, not having to worry about balls getting chopped. I could use any hopper I wanted and tilt my gun at any angle without problems.

    The switch/shooting mode issue has been around since electros were in use. The mechanical switch noise is where the extra "trigger pulls" come from. There's always bounce in a mechanical switch. Many of the older guns used a reduction of debounce settings after a few shots so that extra trigger pulls were sensed due to mechanical bounce even when the extra trigger pull really didn't exist. This led to guns that fired much faster than you could physically pull the trigger. Many aftermarket board manufacturers actually made a living exploiting this. Ramping guns being allowed in tournaments actually made it easier to police, since now everyone could use a controlled extra shot feature legally.
    Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.

  23. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    well when you step out of your hole, there is a lot of fields that do not limit ROF or modes. the West Point Cadets do not have mode or RoF limits, as they see that the more paint that flies, the more money they get from paint sales, which is what the ENTIRE industry was going for in the glory days of who is the fastest wins at the tournaments. more paint equals more money for the manufacturers.

    that is still left up to the player to NOT cheat by setting the gun to ramp, to not go FA or other bonus modes that could result in an uncontrollable gun, but most importantly, to have field refs that can not only recognize what those modes are, but will stand up to the players and remove those guns or those players.

    also, i can offer up 3 different boards that do not have bounce limits or switch filtering. guess you really need to check your facts before making a statement.
    who does not produce a board without switch filtering, name names please.

    because a board without switch filtering will not make a paintball gun work. period. this was actually a problem with getting the original electronic paintball guns work.

  24. #54
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    ICD 8200 board - has modes(semi, 3 shot, 6 shot, FA), dwell(6-12MS) and RoF(max 13bps) adjustments
    ICD 9300 board - fixed board with no adjustments
    WDP LED board - dwell and RoF.

    you could even add in the 22 pin 8200 which was fitted to the LCD guns, but that's semantics...

    so there's your 3. any other questions?

  25. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    ICD 8200 board - has modes(semi, 3 shot, 6 shot, FA), dwell(6-12MS) and RoF(max 13bps) adjustments
    ICD 9300 board - fixed board with no adjustments
    WDP LED board - dwell and RoF.

    you could even add in the 22 pin 8200 which was fitted to the LCD guns, but that's semantics...

    so there's your 3. any other questions?

  26. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    ICD 8200 board - has modes(semi, 3 shot, 6 shot, FA), dwell(6-12MS) and RoF(max 13bps) adjustments
    ICD 9300 board - fixed board with no adjustments
    WDP LED board - dwell and RoF.

    you could even add in the 22 pin 8200 which was fitted to the LCD guns, but that's semantics...

    so there's your 3. any other questions?

    all of those boards use switch filtering.

    it is inherent in the design of every single paintball gun board. it has to be, because every single trigger event, no matter what ROF, is anywhere between 2 and 5+ trigger events when viewed electronically (sub millisecond is some cases). this means every board, adjustable or not, uses switch filtering to filter out those extra trigger events. this is most often done with a delay, but can be done other ways (low pass etc etc).

    it seems you do not understand the electronics we are talking about .... your move.

  27. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
    this means every board, adjustable or not, uses switch filtering to filter out those extra trigger events. this is most often done with a delay, but can be done other ways (low pass etc etc).
    What happens if the extra trigger events are not filtered out?

  28. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Zilcho View Post
    What happens if the extra trigger events are not filtered out?
    the signal to the noid will be messed up, and cause the gun to malfunction.

  29. #59
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    A lot of this is why I like mags. E-mags are mags plus electronics. Instead of "classics" and "old", I'm thinking "mechanical" and "simple". A mag is about as simple as you can get with a regulated marker. That is a lot of the attraction to pumps, but a regulated pump doesn't have much over a mag.

    Ever since the hand held chronies have started measuring bps, I haven't had much trouble playing RT at fields, other than having to tune them down. With a single trigger carbon frame, I can do 4 balls at 12 bps out of a gravity loader rather regularly. What's terrible and outdated about that? No lpr, no board, no battery, one screw take-down, single trigger, and still, I have to turn it down. The only thing electronics do for me is to give me the opportunity to play right up against the limit of the rules while giving the field owner some false reason to believe that I am doing so.

  30. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
    the signal to the noid will be messed up, and cause the gun to malfunction.
    This would be true in a "dumb"system that transmitted the signal directly to the noid. In modern markers this is not the case. The switch signals are sent to the board logic which determines when the noid signals are sent. The filtering you are referring to (software debounce) is a number in milliseconds that the software is programmed to ignore additional signals after the first. Typically it looks like this:
    delay(200);
    where 200 is a fixed value. Variable debounce is one of the possible explanations for what I'm seeing (but not the most likely one IMO. Variable debounce looks like this:
    int debounce = 200;
    //elsewhere in the code we would find something like this
    if((millis() - lastTriggerPullMillis) < bounceLoweringThreshhold){
    debounce = 50;
    }
    //elsewhere we would find the debounce statement:
    delay(debounce);
    In my hastily typed example the software is checking to see how recently the last full switch signal occurred and is lowering the variable integer used to debounce the switch. It would not be much more complicated than than that.

    I have reason to believe that (at least in most cases) it is signal thresholding that is the culprit variable. This is irrelevant to the results. BPS second limits actually allow the manufacturers to be more flagrant. What they aught to do is disregard any switch pull that exceeded the cap. What they do instead is say:
    if(ROF > 12.5)
    ROF = 12.5;

    Now the sound signature that used to be a tell tale sign of cheater modes just sounds like the marker firing at the capped rate.

    If the "profesional" leagues were serious about enforcing 1 shot 1 pull and the rof cap, they would insist on markers using hardware debounce.

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