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Thread: X Valve / Level 10 /ULT sillyness

  1. #1
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    X Valve / Level 10 /ULT sillyness

    Soo.... X valve purchased used... with a level 10 bolt, .5 carrier, no shims. ULT with what appears to be 2-3 ult shims and 1-2 level 10 shims. Just a few questions...
    When I "short stroke" the trigger, finger in the breach, it doesn't recock. That sound normal? If I perform a crisp, full, trigger pull, with my finger in the breach, it recocks most of the time. Its weird, even when it had 2 level 10 shims in the power tube it did the same thing. I was using a new tank, which was purchased without knowing if it was LP or HP (), but I installed a gauge and its reading 850+ so... it can't be that. Shrug, air is gone, I can fiddle with it more tomorrow.
    Thanks,
    Jason

  2. #2
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    try another shim or 2 in your ULT

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    sounds like you were testing again w/o enough air in your tank?

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    Nah, had enough air. Have about 1k left, all these issues happened since 4k psi so /shrug. My only question is, why will more ULT shims affect bolt recock? Or normal operation, for that matter. It came with the valve, so its not a bad thing. I love the crazy light trigger pull.

  5. #5
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    wait your ULT has 2-3 ULT shims and 1-2 lvl 10 shims in it right now?

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    Yeah, they all don't look the same thickness. Took 1 of the odd ones out, and its as thick as the Level 10 ones. .01 thickness vs .005 I think?
    Thanks,
    Jason
    Last edited by Stealthpanda; 10-05-2013 at 04:17 PM.

  7. #7
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    see how it shoots w/o the odd ones..as you say?

    the lvl 10 shims are twice tha thickness as tha ULT shims....so if you have 3 ULT shims and 2 LvL 10 shims in tha ULT thats tha same as 7 shims in your ULT which is too many and can cause ya some problems.

  8. #8
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    O... will try tomorrow.
    Thanks again,
    Jason

    EDIT: I had, earlier, 2 Level 10 (4) and 2 ULT (2) making a total of 6 shims, theoretically. The trigger pull was crazy light, but upon obstruction would not recock at times. I have removed 1 ULT (1) shim dropping the count down to 5. Oddly enough, I wasn't noticing the full auto/running away people mentioned, I WAS however having the gun fire upon airing it up. Safety was on, happened everytime. O_O This sounds ULT related, fully.
    I am reading the ULT sticky from blackvcg, and even on the first page I am noticing the issues people had, very similar to mine. This is always good news.
    Last edited by Stealthpanda; 10-05-2013 at 07:56 PM.

  9. #9
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    Roll back to about 3 ULT shims to start. If you still have recocking issues, then it is level 10 related. You should remove all of the level 10 shims from your level 10 setup as well. They won't affect how it works and its ability to recock. If the level 10 won't recock with only 3 ULT shims installed, then your carrier size is too tight.
    Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.

  10. #10
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    The problem can also in some case be too tight or loose field strip screw.

  11. #11
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    Meh, This doesn't feel like a carrier size that is too tight. This appears to be short stroking. Full length trigger pulls re-cock with no issue. I do have a chuffing issue from time to time, nothing in the breach, and sometimes the recock is delayed when I get on the trigger. Probably not full trigger pulls (short stroking). A suction sound is heard, stops within 1 second or so, then the gun recocks. 1 Level 10 shim, 1 ULT shim (3). Picking up an RT on/off and this will tell me more. Ill-tuned ULT or not.
    Thanks,
    Jason

  12. #12
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    How old is your bolt spring? A worn bolt spring can cause issues like you are describing.

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    The one I was using came with the bolt. It still extends past the bolt tip itself when installed onto the bolt, but I cannot verify if its new(er). I believe at one point I tried putting a new spring in it, but still probably had way too many shims for it to matter. I could try that though.
    Thanks,
    Jason

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    Carrier has to be too tight now. Won't recock sometimes, after a short stroke. IIRC, any pressure needed to push the bolt onto the power tube assembly means too tight, correct? I need to give AGD tech a call, because there is something I am clearly not getting, and am thoroughly frustrated because of it.
    Thanks,
    Jason

  15. #15
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    When tuning your level 10, remove all the shims from the powertube before starting. They don't affect the operation but they can cause false leaks which cause you to use a carrier size that is too tight. Don't put them back when you are done. You shouldn't ever need them.

    For carrier sizing:

    Find the carrier size that causes the installed oring to fit freely over the bolt stem. The carrier should sit on the bolt stem without moving if the bolt is held in a vertical position. If you tap the valve on a hard surface, the carrier should be loose enough to allow the bolt to move. If you have to force the carrier onto the bolt stem with any force at all, then it is too tight. Install the bolt and valve into the gun. When aired up there should be no leaking. If it leaks, take the carrier out and replace it with the next smaller size. Always use the same white carrier oring in each carrier that you use. It is the oring that you are adjusting. Try it again. You want to use the largest carrier size that does not produce a leak.

    Any time that the gun fires and does not reset or short strokes and does not reset, or just chuffs and does not reset, the problem is most likely a carrier that is too tight. Installing shims will not help. Shims only help if the bolt moves, hits an object but does not vent any air, and then cannot reset because the chamber is still fully charged. Most of the time the bolt always moves far enough to expose the vent hole, get rid of excess air, and then reset.

    For spring adjustment:

    You want to use the bolt spring that allows you to shoot about 20fps above the lowest velocity that the gun will cycle at. So, if you want to use the gun at 280fps, then your desired lower limit of operation is 260fps. Insert your long bolt spring. Turn the velocity adjuster down before you air up the valve. Then gradually turn up the velocity until the gun will cycle. This is your lower velocity. Measure it. If it is above 265fps, then you will need a shorter spring or you will need to clip the one you have (unless you have red one. They are usually in the correct range). If you clip a spring, only clip half a coil at a time and then try it using the same procedure of starting with a low velocity setting. Make sure you put the cut end of the spring towards the bolt. If you have the short spring installed, and the lower range is 30fps below the desired shooting velocity, I wouldn't worry about using a stiffer spring and would just go with the short bolt spring. If it was much lower than that, I would definitely clip a long spring to get closer to the desired range.

  16. #16
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    I appreciate the info, I will have to try this tomorrow. It does indeed seem to be too tight, as when I put the bolt on, it goes on, then I have to apply very very slight force to get it to go past the carrier. I would like to do this with as little variables as possible, and get an rt on/off first.
    Thanks,
    Jason

  17. #17
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    Just going to post something I found in the ULT thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Matches View Post
    mountainbob84
    Im using a standard Minimag AIR valve, with a 6 hole mod in the back.
    850 PSI preset.
    LX bolt with 2 shims & medium spring.
    ULT with 4 standard shims & 2 LX shims.
    I put about 1000 balls through it on the weekend and two things i noticed was; When you dry fire the marker at a rapid pace it will allways 'chuff' or short stroke. As soon as i was playing with a full hopper it did not miss a beat.
    The second problem i encountered was a soon as the air system went below 850 psi it would not reacharge propely and started short stroking again. (This isnt a real problem for me as i have a 4500 psi bottle.)
    As mentioned through the post you have to oil the hell out of it and the ULT does require some breaking in.
    Quote Originally Posted by jewie27 View Post
    I shot some paint with it today and it seemed to be a lot better. It doesn't stick as much or at all with paint. Why does it stick when I dry fire?
    If this is true, why is this? That chuff/short stroke made me think the bolt was sticking?
    Thanks,
    Jason
    Last edited by Stealthpanda; 10-13-2013 at 10:36 PM.

  18. #18
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    Bolt stickiness can also be caused by too tight or loose field strip screw.

    I've had this happen on my ULE body with RPG Shadow rail. The shadow rail is just loose enough in the back to allow the valve to get slightly misaligned when the field strip screw is tightened all the way. Causing the bolt to some times stick (or bolt spring to drag) in the body inside roof just enough to let the lvl 10 to kick in and do its thing.

    In short, I spent some time going trough the carriers (and o-rings) until I realized what was causing the issue. In the end all that was needed was to loosen the field strip screw about 1/3-1/4 turns.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthpanda View Post
    Just going to post something I found in the ULT thread:




    If this is true, why is this? That chuff/short stroke made me think the bolt was sticking?
    Thanks,
    Jason
    When firing with paint, there is some residual air pressure left in the chamber. When firing without paint, the chamber completely empties. An empty chamber can cause the on-off to push the sear against the bolt lip with greater force, thus slowing it down. Anytime you slow the bolt while rapid firing, you reduce the charge time to get air into the front chamber. This contributes to short stroking because you are trying to fire the gun without enough air to properly push the bolt forward. Usually it isn't noticeable, but if there are any other contributors to a slow reset, the combination causes excessive reset time. Other contributors could be a ULT with too many shims causing a bit of air to leak by as the sear rotates forward, a field strip screw too tight causing the valve/bolt to be out of alignment with the body, a carrier that is slightly too tight but not so tight that it doesn't allow a reset under normal conditions, etc.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laku View Post
    Bolt stickiness can also be caused by too tight or loose field strip screw.

    I've had this happen on my ULE body with RPG Shadow rail. The shadow rail is just loose enough in the back to allow the valve to get slightly misaligned when the field strip screw is tightened all the way. Causing the bolt to some times stick (or bolt spring to drag) in the body inside roof just enough to let the lvl 10 to kick in and do its thing.

    In short, I spent some time going trough the carriers (and o-rings) until I realized what was causing the issue. In the end all that was needed was to loosen the field strip screw about 1/3-1/4 turns.
    I have fiddled with the field screw. I would hand screw it in, then back it out 1/4-1/2 a turn, so you could see a gap between the rubber grommet on the screw, and the rail itself. I am also using a ULE body, but with a classic am/mm rail.

    Quote Originally Posted by athomas View Post
    When firing with paint, there is some residual air pressure left in the chamber. When firing without paint, the chamber completely empties. An empty chamber can cause the on-off to push the sear against the bolt lip with greater force, thus slowing it down. Anytime you slow the bolt while rapid firing, you reduce the charge time to get air into the front chamber. This contributes to short stroking because you are trying to fire the gun without enough air to properly push the bolt forward. Usually it isn't noticeable, but if there are any other contributors to a slow reset, the combination causes excessive reset time. Other contributors could be a ULT with too many shims causing a bit of air to leak by as the sear rotates forward, a field strip screw too tight causing the valve/bolt to be out of alignment with the body, a carrier that is slightly too tight but not so tight that it doesn't allow a reset under normal conditions, etc.
    I didn't know that >_< Is that X valve specific? or all automags valves? Man, for some reason that explains sooo much... smh.
    Thanks, this has been a bit of bright light.
    Jason

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthpanda View Post
    I have fiddled with the field screw. I would hand screw it in, then back it out 1/4-1/2 a turn, so you could see a gap between the rubber grommet on the screw, and the rail itself. I am also using a ULE body, but with a classic am/mm rail.
    The valve needs to be tight on the rail. There shouldn't be a gap allowing the valve to move. Since you are using a ULE body on a AM rail, check that the pim on the bottom of the body isn't bottoming out in the grip frame screw hole in the rail. This will cause alignment issues because the body can't sit flat against the rail.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthpanda View Post
    I didn't know that >_< Is that X valve specific? or all automags valves? Man, for some reason that explains sooo much... smh.
    Thanks, this has been a bit of bright light.
    Jason
    All Automag valves work the same from a firing point of view. Its only the internal regulator that is different.

  22. #22
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    What do you mean by bottoming out? You mentioned this is my last thread, as everything was the same in each thread, except the valve (classic vs x valve). Each time I have screwed the trigger frame into the rail/body pretty snug.
    Thanks,
    Jason

  23. #23
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    I've not run into it with a ULE body but some Emag bodies with the round pims sometimes bottomed out and would not allow the body to sit flat. They would rock back and forth on the pim causing binding.

  24. #24
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    This is the pim that we're talking about.


  25. #25
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    Yeah, I figured as the description explained where it is. So what is the end result? I am not noticing any movement in the body or rail at all. I am going to fire my mag(s) tomorrow with paint and see what I come up with. I was fiddling with dry firing last night, slow trigger pulls, maybe 2-3 bps, and no issues.
    Thanks,
    Jason

  26. #26
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    I got the chance to fire my mag today, and everything seems to work flawlessly now. I had really ****ty dimpled walmart paint... I had what appeared to be a chuff, then barrel break, so I guess I get what I deserved. I also had a chance to test out my Axe with paint as well. Such a nicer connection to the gun with the mags trigger pull. I definately want to add more ULT, I think I was down to 2-3 total. The trigger pull is really crazy light... I am glad that the gun performs with paint. Cheers.
    Thanks,
    Jason

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthpanda View Post
    [...]I definately want to add more ULT, I think I was down to 2-3 total. The trigger pull is really crazy light.
    Can you get a lighter trigger pull using a newer style sear with the ULT? or is it just the materials used?

    -P

  28. #28
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    I would have to assume that less mass is always good in this situation. I never got around to weighing the old sear I had on my classic, and the new one AGD sent me about a month ago. Clearly less mass though.
    Thanks,
    Jason

  29. #29
    But there is no difference to the geometry?

    -P

  30. #30
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    This is what the "new one" looks like:
    agd0297.jpg
    This is what the one that came with my mag looks like, apparently very old too:
    agd0346.jpg
    Thanks,
    Jason

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