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Thread: Why no private label Mags?

  1. #1
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    Why no private label Mags?

    While it's kind if good for my wallet, one major collectors difference between Mags and Cockers is the absence of private label Mags. I mean their were PTP Micros, splash kits offered by Eclipse and SP, Devilmags and SFL's but little beyond that. Compare that to all the Private label clockers made. Why is this?

  2. #2
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    probably because there are so many parts in cockers compared to mags. And also because the majority of automag aftermarket parts that were made were inferior to the stock components.... really, if you get down to it, it's Tom's fault for making such a damn fine product.

    Just my 2c

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPBN View Post
    While it's kind if good for my wallet, one major collectors difference between Mags and Cockers is the absence of private label Mags. I mean their were PTP Micros, splash kits offered by Eclipse and SP, Devilmags and SFL's but little beyond that. Compare that to all the Private label clockers made. Why is this?
    Mags are essentially the valve. Yes, the body changes the look, but many aftermarket manufacturers couldn't purchase the valve from AGD, add their own body, and sell at a reasonable price to make a decent profit. Especially, since they couldn't offer any performance upgrades. With cockers, a custom body and a few changes to the internals would change the performance, so it was easier to market from a private label point of view.

    Smart Parts did offer a smart mag that had their barrel as well as valve upgrades such as the magic box and ported valve back.

    PTP offered custom mags and emags. They were essentially body kits with custom logos on the valves.

    SFL had a custom emag that was a predecessor to the X-mag. Again, it was essentially a body kit that used an AGD valve and electronics.
    Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by athomas View Post
    Mags are essentially the valve. Yes, the body changes the look, but many aftermarket manufacturers couldn't purchase the valve from AGD, add their own body, and sell at a reasonable price to make a decent profit. Especially, since they couldn't offer any performance upgrades. With cockers, a custom body and a few changes to the internals would change the performance, so it was easier to market from a private label point of view.
    That pretty much sums up what I was thinking. Also the unfortunate fact that the current mag market is too small to support a healthy aftermarket.

  5. #5
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    why does everyone always forget the HyperMag/Hyper valve?

    but essentially yes. cockers are based off sheridans, so you can mix and match from that path with changing bolts and regs and all. there wasn't a whole lot to change on a mag to begin with. Eclipse had the market sowed with their dress-up kits. then later, with the bodies and frames, AGD already had them with the ULE, intelliframes, Z and Y frames. and because they(the aftermarket companies) couldn't improve on absent parts from OEM, there was nothing people couldn't do. AGD generally only had a tow hold in paintball. there was only a few teams on the top levels that ever shot Mags, so you didn't have companies offering the special additions, and to a point, the Mag was pretty damned good out of the box.

    and i think, a lot of why there wasn't anything in the aftermarket/private label, the mag operated differently from everything else? there were huge amounts of closed bolt cockers, but what about the closed bolt shocker? why were their plenty of timmys but none from outside sources(bar the Nemesis)?

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    Ok, but going through some pics of a pretty extensive collection I saw recently posted up on MCB, I see lots if Cocker offerings from Kapp and Eclipse that don't look like much more than fancy milling, ano and frames. Did these private label Cockers really have that much in the way of functional improvements over their WGP offerings? I mean who wouldn't have wanted to see a complete Dallara mag with aftermarket frame etc offered in limited edition ano and such? And from what I can gather most of these private label Cockers were offered back when AGD was viable, or am I over thinking how big AGD was? To be quite honest, I didn't come in until the heyday of paintball has long passed.

  7. #7
    There's very little "meat" on a mag to make custom looking. Like others mentioned, there's nothing to upgrade or tweak.
    The real kicker is that most of the "pros" were using cockers by the time the private label guns started coming out. The RT getting the boot from tournaments was the nail in the coffin.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAGgot View Post
    There's very little "meat" on a mag to make custom looking. Like others mentioned, there's nothing to upgrade or tweak.
    The real kicker is that most of the "pros" were using cockers by the time the private label guns started coming out. The RT getting the boot from tournaments was the nail in the coffin.
    The aluminum slugs had a fair amount of meat... I think a lot could have been done with a unibody as well. I guess the RT not being allowed would have made it difficult, as well as the Emag issues later on. Probably a series of events really. I would venture a guess if the RT was tourney legal and used, there would have been more interest/clamor for fancier editions as well as "upgraded" unibodies for E/X Mags. Makes more sense, just a shame. Kinda relegates Mag collecting being akin to collecting Hot Rods/customs and Cocker collecting to collecting Classic period correct restorations.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by OPBN View Post
    The aluminum slugs had a fair amount of meat... I think a lot could have been done with a unibody as well. I guess the RT not being allowed would have made it difficult, as well as the Emag issues later on. Probably a series of events really. I would venture a guess if the RT was tourney legal and used, there would have been more interest/clamor for fancier editions as well as "upgraded" unibodies for E/X Mags. Makes more sense, just a shame. Kinda relegates Mag collecting being akin to collecting Hot Rods/customs and Cocker collecting to collecting Classic period correct restorations.
    True, but there wasn't an aluminum AGD body until the very end (except for the PTP and the Z-body), so slugs didn't exist at that time. Bodies would have had to been fabricated from scratch, a lot more risk and money.
    I think your analogy is a good one.

  10. #10
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    So Eclipse kits, Smart Parts kits,

    SFL Mags,



    Smart Mags,




    Predator Mags,



    Boxer Mags,



    O Pawlak Mags,



    Galactic Systems Z Mags,





    HyperMags,





    and PTP MicroMags (in 5+ different variations),







    aren't enough for you? Seems like there were plenty of private label offerings to me. Especially considering the market split at the time...

  11. #11
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    I thought the Eclipse and Smart Parts kits were usually just that, kits. How often were they sold as complete markers? And besides the PTP Micros and Galactic Z, I've barely heard of any of the others, let alone seen any of them. They all look pretty similar....

    No one needs to get their panties in a bunch. But when comparing these two collections:

    http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...-Pallet-Thread

    http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/w...ollection.html

    There is definitely a distinct difference in the type of collecting. When I am on CC (which isn't very often honestly) and someone posts up a pic of a marker FS, it gets picked apart for not having the correct 3way, on/off, ram etc, whereas "collectors" of Mags don't have those restraints. Besides an SFL/X Mag having the correct breach, it seems to be anything goes. It's not a criticism, but more of an observation.

  12. #12
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    No bunching here.

    Just saying there is more out there than you knew about.

    Most of the private lable ones were branded on the valve.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by robertsr1811 View Post
    No bunching here.

    Just saying there is more out there than you knew about.

    Most of the private lable ones were branded on the valve.
    Still a distinct difference you have to admit. The Galactic Z is a body and barrel, the Boxer appears to just be a body, ( you could add DW, RPG and VD to these) the Hyper and Predator just look to be stamped/lazered valves. I do see the Predator appears to have a PF modded body, you could add "Centerfire" to this category as they had the lazered MM valves and CF MM bodies. The PTP and SFLs were really the only true full on private label Mags though. When you compare it to the wide arrange of collectible Cocker based markers there really is obviously a big difference in the type of private label.

  14. #14
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    Totally forgot about the Centerfire ones. They even had their own serial numbers.

    Cockers had a big 'ole flat sided hunk of carvable aluminum. Mags had a stainless steel tube. Not a lot of body work possible on one of those. Probably the biggest reason for the difference in numbers. Any guy with a machine shop could have a "private label" cocker. I think the private label mags (with the exceptions of the aluminum bodies) were mostly small differences in the valve (4-hole, 6-hole, 8-hole, wide-hole, whatever).

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by OPBN View Post
    Ok, but going through some pics of a pretty extensive collection I saw recently posted up on MCB, I see lots if Cocker offerings from Kapp and Eclipse that don't look like much more than fancy milling, ano and frames. Did these private label Cockers really have that much in the way of functional improvements over their WGP offerings? I mean who wouldn't have wanted to see a complete Dallara mag with aftermarket frame etc offered in limited edition ano and such? And from what I can gather most of these private label Cockers were offered back when AGD was viable, or am I over thinking how big AGD was? To be quite honest, I didn't come in until the heyday of paintball has long passed.
    The Eclipse guns, were, and still are, considered the cream of the crop. The mechs had probably the smoothest and crispest triggers. The bodies were milled down to cut weight and the pneumatics are some of the best out there.

    Cant say the same for the KAPP stuff or a lot of the rest of the aftermarket, but the Eclipse/Belsales guns are superb.

  16. #16
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    -Eclipse
    -Centerfire
    -Smart Parts
    -SFL (Shocktech)
    -Taso
    -Galactic Systems
    -Vortex (PBI)
    -Bob Long Signature
    -Boxer
    -Express (BPS)
    -Predator
    -Oh Pawlak Signature
    -Pursuit (PMI)
    -Venom
    -Benchmark
    -Hypermag (Fox)
    -Diggers
    -ProTeam Products
    -Xtreme (ANS)
    -ProLine
    -Skanline TUX
    -Automagnum (PMS)


    I'm sure there are more, that's what I can remember now.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkApollo View Post
    The Eclipse guns, were, and still are, considered the cream of the crop. The mechs had probably the smoothest and crispest triggers. The bodies were milled down to cut weight and the pneumatics are some of the best out there.

    Cant say the same for the KAPP stuff or a lot of the rest of the aftermarket, but the Eclipse/Belsales guns are superb.
    Functionally, yes... aesthetically, no. They were CNC carbon copies and came with boring anodizing. They are nice to play with though.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frizzle Fry View Post
    -Eclipse
    -Centerfire
    -Smart Parts
    -SFL (Shocktech)
    -Taso
    -Galactic Systems
    -Vortex (PBI)
    -Bob Long Signature
    -Boxer
    -Express (BPS)
    -Predator
    -Oh Pawlak Signature
    -Pursuit (PMI)
    -Venom
    -Benchmark
    -Hypermag (Fox)
    -Diggers
    -ProTeam Products
    -Xtreme (ANS)
    -ProLine
    -Skanline TUX
    -Automagnum (PMS)


    I'm sure there are more, that's what I can remember now.
    How many offered full markers though?

  19. #19
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    Those are all complete markers.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frizzle Fry View Post
    Those are all complete markers.
    Really? Would love to see examples.

  21. #21
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    the hypermags and some internal differences, like the dump chamber was smaller(what is basically done by the various efficiency inserts), so the pressures were higher. so it had a better shot count, but was more harder on paint. if these were still out/being made when the L10 was started, i think that the Hyper valves would be the cat's meow. alas, i only ever seen any being sold like 10 years ago or more.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frizzle Fry View Post
    -Eclipse
    Standard valve and body. Color or splash kit with rail, siterail, foregrip, tourney lock, pf plug, etc. Also sold as kit.

    -Centerfire
    "Special" valve. Standard body. Otherwise basically just a regular Automag.

    -Diggers
    "Special" valve. Centerfeed Minimag body. See Centerfire above...

    -Smart Parts
    "Special" valve. Color or splash kit with rail, foregrip, barrel, tourney lock, etc - in some cases frame too. Also sold as kit.

    -SFL (Shocktech)
    It's an SFL... we all know.

    -Taso
    Standard valve and body. Color or splash humpback 45, rail, site rail, foregrip, asa, etc. Win series or Powerbarrel.

    -Galactic Systems
    "Special" valve. Aluminum "Z-Body" with special backspin design and site rail. Oversize barrel.

    -Vortex (PBI)
    Standard valve. Aluminum Z-body (as above) but with Taso barrel kit and Centerflag Hyperframe.

    -Bob Long Signature
    Standard valve and body. Color kit with groovy finger 45 frame, rail, site rail, barrel.

    -Boxer
    Standard valve. Aluminum unibodies of various styles (unique and Micromag knockoff). Big barrel kits (lengths not size).

    -Express (BPS)
    "Special" valve. Options! Built to order with literally any parts on the market, then milled and splashed. Special trigger.

    -Predator
    "Special" valve. Standard body. Milled Benchmark 45 frame, color rail, siterail, etc. Foregrip ASA.

    -Oh Pawlak Signature
    "Special" valve. Standard body. Very similar to Predator (made by them), but set up to Ohs tastes I guess.

    -Pursuit (PMI)
    Standard valve and body. Basically a standard Automag with PMI grips, site rail, etc.

    -Venom
    "Special" valve. Standard body. Basically a standard Automag but with new valve back, bolt, barrel, hardline.

    -Benchmark
    Standard valve. Standard body. Color or splash kit with rail, siterail, foregrip, barrel, asa, etc.

    -Hypermag (Fox)
    "Special" valve. 'Hypervalve' and 'Hyperframe' otherwise standard.

    -ProTeam Products
    They're Micromags. We all know...

    -Xtreme (ANS)
    "Special" valve. Standard body. Color kit with rail, site rail, foregrip, etc. Lots of "internal upgrades" or whatever.

    -ProLine
    Standard valve. Standard body but in black. Rebranded Benchmark 45 frame or Autoresponse. Two-piece barrel.

    -Skanline TUX
    Standard valve and body. Special expansion chamber and quick connect setup. Color rail, siterail, asa, etc.

    -Automagnum (PMS)
    Standard valve. Standard body with cut feedneck. Finger groove 45 frame, rail with built in site rail, tipped barrel.


    I'm sure there are more, that's what I can remember now.
    Not sure where to find pictures; most were before 2000. I can describe to the best of my memory.


    *edit: I'm working on an article about the Express mags. That should be out soon and will have some good pictures.
    Last edited by Frizzle Fry; 10-08-2013 at 03:21 PM.

  23. #23
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    Interesting. With so many colored parts offered, I'm surprised that more haven't survived. Also with so many using standard valves, guessing most were parted out since no one realized they were a special edition. I also bet that since some of the "upgrades" were mainly cosmetic, some were removed as weight began to be a factor? One of the things that made me think about this was a marker that I received recently. It came with an expansion chamber that is a Benchmark expansion chamber, and has "Bob Long Signature Series" lazered on it. Which would lead to another reason, that as people switched to HPA some items were ditched. Might be an interesting project to try and come up with actual pictures and such for some of these for people to be able to reference.
    Last edited by OPBN; 10-08-2013 at 03:42 PM.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPBN View Post
    Interesting. With so many colored parts offered, I'm surprised that more haven't survived. Also with so many using standard valves, guessing most were parted out since no one realized they were a special edition. I also bet that since some of the "upgrades" were mainly cosmetic, some were removed as weight began to be a factor?
    Definitely the weight issue, but also the fact that mags tend to gain "upgrades" and lose older components due to their modular nature, and those parts end up in a bin or sold off. You've also got to figure that most were sold between 1994 and 2000 - the sport wasn't as big as it was now, production runs weren't what they are now, and frankly it's a fairly long time ago now.

    Next time you see a Benchmark rail and foregrip on a marker for sale, or a Taso VASA and 45 frame, consider that it might have been ordered as a complete marker then "upgraded" into whatever frankenmag it is now. With a private label Autococker body you can ID it no matter what frame or pneumatics it's got now, with a Mag it's not that simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by OPBN View Post
    One of the things that made me think about this was a marker that I received recently. It came with an expansion chamber that is a Benchmark expansion chamber, and has "Bob Long Signature Series" lazered on it.
    Most "Bob Long" frames were Benchmark made as well, including the standard 45s for cocker and mag, the finger groove 45s, and the "Perfect" 45 frames with the built in dropforward. I know some of rifled barrels were made by Armson, too, but with much different cosmetic milling. PTP made plenty of products that were branded by other companies, and until the late 90s BLAST didn't manufacture much in-house - they didn't even mill their own 'cocker bodies.


    Quote Originally Posted by OPBN View Post
    Which would lead to another reason, that as people switched to HPA some items were ditched. Might be an interesting project to try and come up with actual pictures and such for some of these for people to be able to reference.
    Agreed - players with more expendable income and those who played competitively tended to upgrade to HPA; I'm sure that most players who bought private label mags fell in to one or both of those categories. I know I did, and I ended up with lots and lots of Micromags and private-label Autocockers. I've got a lot of buddies and former teammates who did the same, but didn't hang on to their markers when they upgraded or got out of the game.
    Last edited by Frizzle Fry; 10-09-2013 at 01:20 AM.

  25. #25
    I've got a powerfeed body around here somewhere with Pop's PopGuns laser engraved on it.

  26. #26
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    I've probably seen six different on/off designs through the years too. I'll bet that a lot of the private mags had differences there as well.

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