since the cockers guys getting some love maybe we can too?

[OneSelfLost]

I'd love to see another body come out with interchangeable breaches like the Xmag or the newer micro.

[keiko_819]

A unibody am/mm length with an optional adapter to add emag lowers like the ptp body? And then everyone can choose their own everything else

[dodge3500]

Are those people the original owners, or people that might have found it second hand or even have traded guns and maybe cash? Hell, i have a 99 Eclipse LED Angel, which was a $1500 gun, back in the day or even my Ego6. Does that count?

But BigEvil's state is more that you will sell more $400 dollar guns than guns that cost 4 figures. Compare 10 years ago to today. Back then you had yearly gun releases, now their are spread out between the line of guns. Planet Eclipse, MacDev, even Empire.

I never thought to ask if they purchased their lv1,geo3.5 or vanquish new but somebody had to.I can believe the used market is strong for sure just look at PbNation a crap ton of sweet used electro's there.

[1985phenom]

I realize this is digressing a bit but I have followed the used market on FB in the hopes if scoring a discarded mag (scored a classic valve pneu for 125$ shipped)...

...people are already selling their Mini GS's. People buy and sell new guns too fast at a loss.

[BigEvil]

The last gun I paid over $1k for was my Xmag and that was new from AGD in 2003. I have a bunch of $1k+ guns, I NEVER paid anywhere near retail for them. It's insane when you can buy the same gun used a year later for 1/2 the price. Some people do buy them new, but more people buy lower to mid end guns new. The Ion changed the world boys.

[OPBN]

Since we're all clarifying...lol. I would like to clarify that I was talking about a valveless marker for under $1k. Buyers would supply bottomlines, feednecks, fittings, etc. Essentially I am talking about a custom designed package that would include a body/rail/unibody, frame, and foregrip (maybe a barrel) All designed together and limited in production to say 25 markers and then the molds are broken. The buyers supply whatever else they want to send off for anodizing match.

[SN toter]

Well, Luke - you've got me excited. Looking fw to seeing what you have up your sleeve.

[Laku]

Guys, bodies are my next big project. I have ideas of the route I want to go but nothing is set in stone until the chips start flying. I'm prototyping my current project right now, when it's done I will start the body project. I hope to start the design phase within about a month. I have a lot of concerns about the project and whether or not the support will be there when the time comes. People generally don't want something new, they want repeats of old parts, SFL, xmag or a emag, karta mag, aluminum minimag and RT bodies or the ripper style bodies, none of which is a direction I plan on going. Once I have my slug designs down (Not AGD slugs, I'm doing something different) there will be many possibilities. This will happen and much sooner than later.

Sounds good. I'm actually more interested of new types of bodies, depending of course wether I like the aesthetics or not.

[knownothingmags]

I realize this is digressing a bit but I have followed the used market on FB in the hopes if scoring a discarded mag (scored a classic valve pneu for 125$ shipped)...

...people are already selling their Mini GS's. People buy and sell new guns too fast at a loss.

well when its mom and dads money

[WholemealDrop]

a grand is quite a chunk of money for an incomplete marker. End user would end up dropping a couple hundred more to finish it off.

[vintage]

$1000.00 is a chunk regardless of what your buying. for that much i can buy 2 nice little Turkish made o/u shotguns from Academy and have some left over for ammo. i just bought a new Rock Island 1911 in 38 super for $355.00. as much as i would like to see a new mag i can't justify spending any where near that much on a new paintball gun.

as you can see paintball is not my only hobby.

[Laku]

as much as i would like to see a new mag i can't justify spending any where near that much on a new paintball gun.

But maybe it is also a beautiful piece of metal art. 1000$ wouldn't be that much from art.

[WholemealDrop]

Well for $1k I'd expect a complete and usable product. Yes there are other things that you can get of quality make for less. For example your 1911 for $355, I suspect it shoots well, had at least 1 mag, complete to the point of usability. What if you had to spend another $100-200 in order to use that 1911 (not including ammo), would you still want to buy it? When you end up spending that much money I'd expect it to be a complete usable product. Little things that boil down to personal preference such as barrel choice or type of ASA/rail combo I could let slide seeing as everyone has their own opinion and tastes in that regard. But for the most part I shouldn't have to put in almost half the value of the base product in order to use it. And to counteract an opposing argument: I should have to cannibalize another marker to make another work or use parts you already have since not everyone keeps a spare X-Valve laying around just in case.

Also I'm not a machinist or have the knowledge how that business works but as others have stated, still confused as to why cocker parts (bodies, frames, blocks, etc.) are so much cheaper in comparison to mag parts. Some did state that mag bodies need a concentric bore through them where cockers don't but that didn't make sense to me either since the top tube needs to be straight for the bolt and at least half the bottom tube needs to be straight to align the hammer and valve. $200+ mag frames without grips or ano stun me when cocker frames with internals and grips top out at $200! I understand that we can't expect someone to re-engineer the valve system to produce them when AGD already does a good job at that but I don't see how we couldn't part a custom gun build with AGD to supply the valve system. They should like it for increased exposure for mags which could lead to them more sales.

[Nobody]

Well for $1k I'd expect a complete and usable product. Yes there are other things that you can get of quality make for less. For example your 1911 for $355, I suspect it shoots well, had at least 1 mag, complete to the point of usability. What if you had to spend another $100-200 in order to use that 1911 (not including ammo), would you still want to buy it? When you end up spending that much money I'd expect it to be a complete usable product. Little things that boil down to personal preference such as barrel choice or type of ASA/rail combo I could let slide seeing as everyone has their own opinion and tastes in that regard. But for the most part I shouldn't have to put in almost half the value of the base product in order to use it. And to counteract an opposing argument: I should have to cannibalize another marker to make another work or use parts you already have since not everyone keeps a spare X-Valve laying around just in case.

Also I'm not a machinist or have the knowledge how that business works but as others have stated, still confused as to why cocker parts (bodies, frames, blocks, etc.) are so much cheaper in comparison to mag parts. Some did state that mag bodies need a concentric bore through them where cockers don't but that didn't make sense to me either since the top tube needs to be straight for the bolt and at least half the bottom tube needs to be straight to align the hammer and valve. $200+ mag frames without grips or ano stun me when cocker frames with internals and grips top out at $200! I understand that we can't expect someone to re-engineer the valve system to produce them when AGD already does a good job at that but I don't see how we couldn't part a custom gun build with AGD to supply the valve system. They should like it for increased exposure for mags which could lead to them more sales.

These are what i think those reasons are:
1) you can get predrilled extrusions.
2) the tolerances for a mag is much higher than a cocker
3) there are a hell of a lot more aftermarket parts for cockers than mags. Whether they are sears, or valves or hammers or bolts. You can build a cocker strickly through used/secondary sources. You can't with mags.
4) the ancillaries that most designers need to fit into frame takes time and effort. Because people will put in pneumatics, you then have to incorporate the brackets and mounting points. Cocker frames do not have this.
5) the value of parts. The cost of a new Xvalve from AGD is about $250. You can get new valve train(valve and hammer set), HPR, frame(complete) & bolt.
6) cause quality costs more...

[cougar20th]

Lets see if I can explain this on a way I think Nobody would do. But try not to get myself banned.

Automag: Think of a 18 year old Virgin, Nice, tight & everything were it belongs place, works perfectly with some lube.
Autococker: Think of a career Porn star after her 10th 100 person gangbang, Loose, sloppy everything out of place, will work good with or without lube for awhile.

That is how the tolerances between the 2 compare. A autococker by default has way more allowance for tolerances to be off and still work. This is because everything fits losesly and seperatly. A mag valve on the other hand has everything toleranced tight enough that the bodys have to match.

[dodge3500]

Lets see if I can explain this on a way I think Nobody would do. But try not to get myself banned.

Automag: Think of a 18 year old Virgin, Nice, tight & everything were it belongs place, works perfectly with some lube.
Autococker: Think of a career Porn star after her 10th 100 person gangbang, Loose, sloppy everything out of place, will work good with or without lube for awhile.

That is how the tolerances between the 2 compare. A autococker by default has way more allowance for tolerances to be off and still work. This is because everything fits losesly and seperatly. A mag valve on the other hand has everything toleranced tight enough that the bodys have to match.

I've been laughing so hard I gave myself a headache.
Great analogy.

[cockerpunk]

Lets see if I can explain this on a way I think Nobody would do. But try not to get myself banned.

Automag: Think of a 18 year old Virgin, Nice, tight & everything were it belongs place, works perfectly with some lube.
Autococker: Think of a career Porn star after her 10th 100 person gangbang, Loose, sloppy everything out of place, will work good with or without lube for awhile.

That is how the tolerances between the 2 compare. A autococker by default has way more allowance for tolerances to be off and still work. This is because everything fits losesly and seperatly. A mag valve on the other hand has everything toleranced tight enough that the bodys have to match.

ill take several of both please!

[ScottyBeans]

Lets see if I can explain this on a way I think Nobody would do. But try not to get myself banned.

Automag: Think of a 18 year old Virgin, Nice, tight & everything were it belongs place, works perfectly with some lube.
Autococker: Think of a career Porn star after her 10th 100 person gangbang, Loose, sloppy everything out of place, will work good with or without lube for awhile.

That is how the tolerances between the 2 compare. A autococker by default has way more allowance for tolerances to be off and still work. This is because everything fits losesly and seperatly. A mag valve on the other hand has everything toleranced tight enough that the bodys have to match.

.....nice

[Nobody]

Lets see if I can explain this on a way I think Nobody would do. But try not to get myself banned.

Automag: Think of a 18 year old Virgin, Nice, tight & everything were it belongs place, works perfectly with some lube.
Autococker: Think of a career Porn star after her 10th 100 person gangbang, Loose, sloppy everything out of place, will work good with or without lube for awhile.

That is how the tolerances between the 2 compare. A autococker by default has way more allowance for tolerances to be off and still work. This is because everything fits losesly and seperatly. A mag valve on the other hand has everything toleranced tight enough that the bodys have to match.

I am touched...

[zondo]

Lets see if I can explain this on a way I think Nobody would do. But try not to get myself banned.

Automag: Think of a 18 year old Virgin, Nice, tight & everything were it belongs place, works perfectly with some lube.
Autococker: Think of a career Porn star after her 10th 100 person gangbang, Loose, sloppy everything out of place, will work good with or without lube for awhile.

That is how the tolerances between the 2 compare. A autococker by default has way more allowance for tolerances to be off and still work. This is because everything fits losesly and seperatly. A mag valve on the other hand has everything toleranced tight enough that the bodys have to match.

I think every man now completely understands the situation. Truly quotable for any argument. Is there a bumper sticker in the future? I foresee memes for this.

[p8ntbal4me]

Im going to chime in here and offer my 2 cents:

If you do this project,.... an electronic one,.... you need to design a new board.

By that: I mean you need to scrap the design from AGD and do something new, updated, and cost effective.

--------------------------

I am NOT saying it needs to be OLED or anything. But thing it through,.................... if you are designing a new product, you dont put old product inside to run it.

My software AND circuit are backwards compatable. Meaning it will fire any solenoid from 5-30 volts.

My suggestion for the project leader is to get rid of the AGD solenoid and board. Go with something new.

If not,..... making a new batch of Reflex Paintball Customs E/X-Mag boards to support this design would be an up front cost of $4-5k

The lead time would be short though,... measured in months,.. not years

[OPBN]

If you don't mind me asking, what is the component cost per board?

[barkingspider]

Just more of FYI if some didn't' catch the thread but there was talk with Luke about making a economical grip frame that accepts a cheap and easy to find supply of boards from Spyder. He posed three options from very cost effect to more complex, which also would reflect on the price of a drop in design. If people are wanting something like that, which I am for one, then think about this as a component to the puzzle into someones desires/build

https://www.automags.org/forums/showt...nversion-Frame

[p8ntbal4me]

If you don't mind me asking, what is the component cost per board?

What exactly are you looking for? all the components price per a single board? or the price of all 100 done with the components?

The voltage regulator was $7+
The MOSFET was $10

[p8ntbal4me]

Just more of FYI if some didn't' catch the thread but there was talk with Luke about making a economical grip frame that accepts a cheap and easy to find supply of boards from Spyder. He posed three options from very cost effect to more complex, which also would reflect on the price of a drop in design. If people are wanting something like that, which I am for one, then think about this as a component to the puzzle into someones desires/build

https://www.automags.org/forums/showt...nversion-Frame

Well that right there is something that can be done.

You COULD get a company to sell you an existing product at a reduced rate already in their surplus,.. which would carry some advantages to replacements.

The down side to that is MOST of the guys that make the boards you will look into:
Wont budge in price
Wont make custom ANYTHING (software, hardware)
Wont make any replacements for the boards you buy, for future replacements (once they sell the stock out, thats it. they make no more of them)

So there is somethings to think about......

Cost to design a new board from scratch is costly. Unless you already have a circuit that works for your needs. I have such a circuit,.. so my cost to reproduce the same concept in a new shape isnt hard.

Like I said,.... there are ups and downs to all designs.

My professional opinion for the electronics, would be to start a new base board and build a new finished product.

[OPBN]

What exactly are you looking for? all the components price per a single board? or the price of all 100 done with the components?

Was kinda curious what sorts of components were on the board and pricing paid. I'm a components broker so curious if some costs could be had by sourcing the components outside franchise distribution.

[p8ntbal4me]

Was kinda curious what sorts of components were on the board and pricing paid. I'm a components broker so curious if some costs could be had by sourcing the components outside franchise distribution.

I dont want to derail the topic: we can talk in PM

Answer to your question is: sourced from Mouser and Digi-Key because american board house i used has 100% part integration with their machines. The LEDs were expensive per unit even as a bulk buy (had to buy more than needed), the power and eye buttons were expensive, as were the MOSFETS, regulator, diodes, extra small capacotors,.... the key parts to make the gun work with the solenoid and voltage drove the cost up very quick! the resistors and such were cheap (again, have to buy more than you need)

The solenoids were very expensive :-(

It was almost the same to buy from distribution than it was to buy direct. I have accounts with line of credit and freight in Digi-key and Mouser,.. so it was the obvious choice.

Off 100 boards being sold I will have made less than $500. Thats before I paid myself for the hours into making all the harnesses, tools purchased,.....

When you take on a project like what is described in this thread,..... it can reach $10,000 before you make proto-type function before production.

[Xmagterror]

Lets see if I can explain this on a way I think Nobody would do. But try not to get myself banned.

Automag: Think of a 18 year old Virgin, Nice, tight & everything were it belongs place, works perfectly with some lube.
Autococker: Think of a career Porn star after her 10th 100 person gangbang, Loose, sloppy everything out of place, will work good with or without lube for awhile.

That is how the tolerances between the 2 compare. A autococker by default has way more allowance for tolerances to be off and still work. This is because everything fits losesly and seperatly. A mag valve on the other hand has everything toleranced tight enough that the bodys have to match.

word.
Interesting thread. You guys would be surprised how much time it takes to machine a new body or major mag component from start to finish. with only 25 pieces to be made, its going to be very expensive. and then factor in the design time.

xmags sold for around 1300 and that was around 13 years ago...and TK made around a thousand of them.

[cockerpunk]

I never thought to ask if they purchased their lv1,geo3.5 or vanquish new but somebody had to.I can believe the used market is strong for sure just look at PbNation a crap ton of sweet used electro's there.

FYI, most production guns batches are fairly small ~1000-3000 even for the most popular high ends. also have to take into account modern "sponsorship" which means at lease several hundred of those guns are going at cost, or slightly above, rather than full retail.

[p8ntbal4me]

FYI, most production guns batches are fairly small ~1000-3000 even for the most popular high ends. also have to take into account modern "sponsorship" which means at lease several hundred of those guns are going at cost, or slightly above, rather than full retail.

Yeah I don't believe that for a minute.
A "sponsored" gun for a team is nothing more than a milling change, or some cosmetic add on piece.

SP shockers for teams
impulses for teams
DM3 for teams
Angel LCD for teams.....


The list is a very long and documented one. These little changed PE makes from gun to gun isn't a change they do SPECIFICALLY for a team and a team alone (in talking like... A hard core design change that makes the gun function like no other and it's parts are one of a kind and not usable but in that single one gun)

Take the stock angel LCD: all the adrenaline guns were milled down versions of the OEM. Nothing more. Or take those AGD/PTP Micro EMAGs for the Jacksonville boys..... The battery was the major change. The rest of the gun was an OEM package.

I have not seen a custom built gun made for a team yet that was so specific, any other OEM line gun parts wouldn't work with it.

You might be correct about the price of the gun toward the team from the manufacturer,....

FYI: someone mentioned the number of AGD EMAGs made: it's 1400
Have that saved in an email from TK