Does a Level 7 bolt require a heavier trigger pull vs a Level 10 bolt?

[Pneumagger]

All else being equal, does a level 7 bolt setup produce a heavier trigger when compared to a properly installed Level 10? In theory, with the Level 10 having less initial forward force on the sear, I would think the level 10 unlatches from the sear more easily... but does this translate to reality? Or s it insignificant?

Because if there's no appreciable difference, I would think a Level 7 wouldn't be a bad choice given modern loader feed rates that would be difficult to outshoot (Rotor II, Pinokio Speed, Qloader, etc). So a Level 7 should be faster at the top end of the BPS scale compared to the LX (giving a loader more open breech time to feed) and there obviously much fewer tuning and bolt stick issues for the electro/pneu mag enthusiasts.

Basically, distilled down to the core of my reasoning, why choose LX (and any of it's headaches) over a level 7 with a modern super-loader.

[ScottyBeans]

You make some good points. Not sure on the trigger pull difference, but I'd wager it would be insignificant.

The real question is: is the L10 worth the 'headaches' now that loaders can reliably keep up?

I'd say with brittle, tournament paint, it's still worth it, since the acceleration profile is better. But for recreational to mid-range paint? Sure, why not?

Maybe I'll give it a shot at some point. One of my xvalves has some bolt stick issues (I'm sure it's the carrier o-ring swelling or something, but I don't have the next carrier up so I'd have to order it).

[Pneumagger]

Is it easy to get Level 7 Foamie Bolts these days? Personally, I think a lightened Level 7 bolt that was equipped with a LX foamie and would be a nice option for people with adequate loaders running pneumatics or who simply want less tuning.

Not that I think LX tuning is difficult (it's really simple). But sometimes, a plug and play option is what the doctor ordered.

[blackdeath1k]

My rt has a L7 with a rotor loader. My wife has a LX with a halo loader. If your a player that doesn't do the 20bps stuff. And you just do hit and miss 8-10 bps. The L7 is no issue at all. At least it never has been for me. If you like the machine gun effect I'd stick with a LX. I will say every now and then I've had a hiccup with a deformed ball or something and got a chop from that. With the LX there would have been a chance for a chuff instead of a chop. As for trigger feel on the 2. I can't really tell a difference.

[nak81783]

I can tell no difference in trigger pull.

Recoil difference is noticeable, since the Level 7 is heavier. However, you can shoot a little lower into the tank psi, since it runs at a lower pressure. There's a trade off there.

I thought I read somewhere in the AGD documents not to use Level 7s on X-Valves, so I simply use the gold spring and largest carrier that doesn't leak in my Level 10s. If I ever start chopping or breaking paint, it's a quick spring change to help with that.

[Pneumagger]

I thought about using a lyman trigger pull gauge, but the RT kickback pretty much ruins getting an accurate pull reading. I suppose a good test might be to use an ElectroPneumatic frame set to the minimum pressure & dwell that will barely actuate a valve with well tuned L10 bolt... and then drop in the L7 bolt to see if there's a measureable pressure or significant dwell increase required. Any volunteers?

I had planned on doing this once I get my current EP project further along, but I'm still a good ways off from that point. If it works well, I wanted to use a the L7 bolt unless since my project will be Qloaded (no chance of outrunning that thing). I guess the only real variable after that decision is can I shoot good paint that won't be blended by the L7 bolt.

[Pneumagger]

I can tell no difference in trigger pull.

Recoil difference is noticeable, since the Level 7 is heavier. However, you can shoot a little lower into the tank psi, since it runs at a lower pressure. There's a trade off there.

I thought I read somewhere in the AGD documents not to use Level 7s on X-Valves, so I simply use the gold spring and largest carrier that doesn't leak in my Level 10s. If I ever start chopping or breaking paint, it's a quick spring change to help with that.

Another good point, nak. The L7 requires lower pressure (shorter recharge time) so that's another reason an L7 equipped valve should cycle even faster. Although, at that point it's probably academic because even if a loader can handle it, nobody is going to be shooting 26+ bps in a game, let alone notice a difference of a few more bps increase from there. (...or could I? )

I don't imagine discouraging L7 use on an Xvalve is due to a battering issue on the aluminum valve because there is still a bumper and the LX return spring is stronger too. If it's not a battering issue I would guess it's a liability issue in that, since all Xvalves are designed for LX, their pressure envelopes are higher and cranking up on Xvalve velocity with a L7 might cause "unsafe" velocities before encountering rear reg/valve venting. Then again, if it is a battering issue... go buy a ReTro Valve.

[Cyco-Dude]

All else being equal, does a level 7 bolt setup produce a heavier trigger when compared to a properly installed Level 10?

no difference in trigger pull from what i can tell. the level 10 is still another safety net to prevent chops. ask yourself this; why do modern electronic markers have eyes? shouldn't they be unneeded since we have 20+ bps loaders?

[Pneumagger]

There's no disadvantage to having eyes, really. And if there's a problem, turn them off. So there's no reason not to have them.

From a raw speed and tuning perspective, L7 may offer an advantage... so I'm reconsidering the usefulness of LX with modern loaders in mind. But for pneumatic builds, I was curious if lpr pressure might need increased due to greater bolt-sear engagement force.

[athomas]

The level 10 bolt comes into its own when the loader gets low and the ball stack is not tight. With a level 7 bolt, you almost always get a chop if you fire a high bps string in those conditions, especially if the gun is not held perfectly level.

The level 7 bolt operates at a lower chamber pressure than the level 10 bolt. This causes the force on the on-off pin to be greater on the level 10 setup than on the level 7 setup. The level 10 bolt offers less force pushing on the sear. So, is the reduction in forward bolt force on the sear and its effect on the trigger pull offset by the increased force on the on-off pin when using the level 10 bolt? If you use a barrel that pushes your mag farther away from its most efficient operation, then the level 10 chamber pressure increases and the force on the on-off pin is increased which increases the trigger pull force. The level 7 chamber pressure goes up too, but not by as much so there is less increase in force for the on-off pin, but there is also an increase in the forward bolt force which increases the friction of the sear which increases the pull force.

The end result is that there probably isn't enough difference to notice for the average user.

[JKR]

All this talk of going back to a L7 from a L10 bolt reaffirms my decision to never stop using the L7 bolt. I love the simplicity and honestly don't have many chopping issues if the paint isn't super brittle. Valken Graffiti shoots great through my Mags!

[nak81783]

Bring back the Superbolt, sans the shrapnel flying out the barrel. It's the best of both worlds except no anti-chop/break capabilities.

[Nobody]

1) the spring or bolt has nothing to do with the trigger pull. The pull is dictated by the on/off or the force needed to turn off the flow of air to the dump chamber. This is why on a classic valve you can change the on/off assembly to a RT, and it lightens it.

2)the L7 can go as fast as you want it too. Remember, the RT RoF test was with a L7 bolt. Yes, the Uberloader used in that test was genesis for the Halo and other forcefeed loaders we know today.

Now here comes the theorem. This will consider that all paint is perfectly round, fresh and will not break in the barrel.

You need a loader to be able to keep up with the max RoF of the gun. Any slip of the loading speed and the sustained(that is the key here for both) RoF of the gun, & you will have a missfeed/half shot which basically results in a chop. A forceceed loader solves this, by hopefully feeding faster than a gun could shot, thus maintaining a ball always being in the breech, ready to shoot. Hence why a revy can keep up with short strings on a RT mag and why people used tall stacks of oaint to help have a ball ready to fall into the breech, but why you shoot long strings of paint, there is a higher chance of a chop. If you think of it like a manual transmission for a car. When you engage the clutch to change the gear at the right RPM. Everything moves smoothly, as it should. But if you shift without the clutch or change into the wrong gear, bad stuff happens.

3) the L10 does slow the bolt speed down, very slightly. I wish i had the numbers but it is just what others have said. Even if it is slower, the gun can only shoot as fast as you can feed paint in. If you are cycling the bolt at say 25bps, if you use a revy it will feed at 12bps. You will chop. The L10 does help prevent this, as we all know. The advantage of the L10 over eyes is that eyes can get blocked and they can get fooled. The L10 is mechanical, so there is nothing that stop it from working. If there is a problem with chuffing then you need to determine where the problem is and fine tune the L10 for that. But the beauty of the L10 is that is that "chuff" a chuff or the bolt doing its job?

4)if you think of the L10 as a failsafe measure, then its no doubt it is the way to go. If you eliminate a possible problem, then as good as the L7 is at simpicity, the L10 is at the paragon of being the best and most useful thing to do. The possible loss of speed at the high end of RoF is not significant if you can not reach that limit, or feed paint in that fast.

So, get a L10 and you can use any loader you want, at any bps you fire. Keep the L7 and the incremental gains in speed or simpicity of use will go into the time spent cleaning that 1% break you will invariably get.

[Spider-TW]

1) the spring or bolt has nothing to do with the trigger pull. The pull is dictated by the on/off or the force needed to turn off the flow of air to the dump chamber. This is why on a classic valve you can change the on/off assembly to a RT, and it lightens it.

2)the L7 can go as fast as you want it too. Remember, the RT RoF test was with a L7 bolt. Yes, the Uberloader used in that test was genesis for the Halo and other forcefeed loaders we know today.

Now here comes the theorem. This will consider that all paint is perfectly round, fresh and will not break in the barrel.

You need a loader to be able to keep up with the max RoF of the gun. Any slip of the loading speed and the sustained(that is the key here for both) RoF of the gun, & you will have a missfeed/half shot which basically results in a chop. A forceceed loader solves this, by hopefully feeding faster than a gun could shot, thus maintaining a ball always being in the breech, ready to shoot. Hence why a revy can keep up with short strings on a RT mag and why people used tall stacks of oaint to help have a ball ready to fall into the breech, but why you shoot long strings of paint, there is a higher chance of a chop. If you think of it like a manual transmission for a car. When you engage the clutch to change the gear at the right RPM. Everything moves smoothly, as it should. But if you shift without the clutch or change into the wrong gear, bad stuff happens.

3) the L10 does slow the bolt speed down, very slightly. I wish i had the numbers but it is just what others have said. Even if it is slower, the gun can only shoot as fast as you can feed paint in. If you are cycling the bolt at say 25bps, if you use a revy it will feed at 12bps. You will chop. The L10 does help prevent this, as we all know. The advantage of the L10 over eyes is that eyes can get blocked and they can get fooled. The L10 is mechanical, so there is nothing that stop it from working. If there is a problem with chuffing then you need to determine where the problem is and fine tune the L10 for that. But the beauty of the L10 is that is that "chuff" a chuff or the bolt doing its job?

4)if you think of the L10 as a failsafe measure, then its no doubt it is the way to go. If you eliminate a possible problem, then as good as the L7 is at simpicity, the L10 is at the paragon of being the best and most useful thing to do. The possible loss of speed at the high end of RoF is not significant if you can not reach that limit, or feed paint in that fast.

So, get a L10 and you can use any loader you want, at any bps you fire. Keep the L7 and the incremental gains in speed or simpicity of use will go into the time spent cleaning that 1% break you will invariably get.

5) The only time you are using a good, steady rate of fire is when you are really working the field, and that is probably the only time you would ever let your loader get low. Hence, if you are looking for dependability at high rof, a L10 helps a lot. Otherwise, you are likely to get a "PAf!" sound along with the final spin of your loader and end up clogged through the loader, in the middle of an intense duel with one or more of the opposition.

[nak81783]

I think the extra 100 or so shots a Level 7 gets by being able to operate at a lower pressure should not be overlooked. I'm not worried about ROF, but those extra shots can be important, especially when playing in the woods, filling from Scubas which obviously decline with each fill.

[Nobody]

I think the extra 100 or so shots a Level 7 gets by being able to operate at a lower pressure should not be overlooked. I'm not worried about ROF, but those extra shots can be important, especially when playing in the woods, filling from Scubas which obviously decline with each fill.

Then limit your paint to less than you shoot. Hopperball is fun, can help increase skill and extends the life of your fill tank. What you could also do is to, this only works on a classic valve only, is to LOWER the pressure going into the gun. Have it set to a good working preasure(around 650psi - each gun will work differently, test & tune) and you will see a slight increase in the number of shots you can get. Yes a L10 does limit the potential number of total shots you can get. I got my classic valve up to over 1200 shots off a 68/4500.

i never like renegade/pirate ball and do like to play & support my fields(BTW, i travel 2hrs to get to my field, 1 way so no crying about nothing close to you). The more you support them, the more you can play.

[nak81783]

My point is there are all kinds of games/scenarios/situations where a certain setup may be better than another.

Can you elaborate on your dislike for outlaw fields? This is, after all, what started the sport. It was how I got started, and it's how quite a few of the newer players get started. I agree they have to be done right and safely, but they're still supporting paintball simply by purchasing equipment, paint, and air.

I certainly don't mind supporting a field if they offer me a good experience. There are very few outlaw fields that I play anymore. They've simply stopped playing, so public fields are just about my only option nowadays.

[Pneumagger]

1) the spring or bolt has nothing to do with the trigger pull. The pull is dictated by the on/off or the force needed to turn off the flow of air to the dump chamber. This is why on a classic valve you can change the on/off assembly to a RT, and it lightens it.

So, get a L10 and you can use any loader you want, at any bps you fire. Keep the L7 and the incremental gains in speed or simpicity of use will go into the time spent cleaning that 1% break you will invariably get.

Well, where the sear interfaces with the bolt there is friction... so all things being equal the more forward force on the bolt-sear interface, the greater the friction acting on the sear movement. Since a L7 bolt has more forward force it should have an inherently higher sear friction. However, as athomas noted, I overlooked the higher chamber pressure of the L10 setup creating more on/off pin force; which might negate any reduction in sear friction. So at the end of the day it's all a wash, I suppose... or at least the forces are close enough to be unnoticeable.

I'm unconcerned with greater efficiency. It's not like 'mags are amazingly efficient in most configurations. The purpose of posting this thread was that I'm more considering the L7 as it relates to mech and EP pneumags because they have an extra level of tuning with their frames. Even with a properly/perfectly tuned LX bolt you can short stroke the system with a pneumatic trigger and cause bolt stick due to dragging the sear. EP frames tend to avoid this with dwell control, but hangups still happen on occasion. The L7 bolts don't tend to get bolt stick or hangups easily and are generally more forgiving of the pneumatics. Not that I have anything against LX bolts... they're awesome and easy to setup. I've kept them on all my mags. But with the current gun I'm putting together now, I was curious about using L7 and that it won't require any unduly high LPR pressures for the pneumatics. I figure very few setups can outrun Qloaders. But I'm certainly going to try... Ninja SHP, extra reactive on/off, Qloader, L7 bolt. It's pretty much going to be for woodsball at a private field where firing modes of all kinds are allowed.

Speaking of fields that allow freedom of firing modes, Autoresponse on a nicely reactive Hybrid Emag is by far the best firing mode ever created. Easy to go slow. Easy to go stupid-fast. 100% control. After that, I just prefer Hybrid Semi.

[Pneumagger]

Also... who needs Level 10?
(they were all barrel breaks... I swear )

[Cyco-Dude]

I think the extra 100 or so shots a Level 7 gets by being able to operate at a lower pressure should not be overlooked.

is this a number you've come to by actual testing of the different bolts, or are you just guessing?

I'm unconcerned with greater efficiency. It's not like 'mags are amazingly efficient in most configurations. The purpose of posting this thread was that I'm more considering the L7 as it relates to mech and EP pneumags because they have an extra level of tuning with their frames. Even with a properly/perfectly tuned LX bolt you can short stroke the system with a pneumatic trigger and cause bolt stick due to dragging the sear. EP frames tend to avoid this with dwell control, but hangups still happen on occasion. The L7 bolts don't tend to get bolt stick or hangups easily and are generally more forgiving of the pneumatics.

this doesn't make sense to me; if it can fire a lvl 7 bolt it should fire a lvl x bolt just as well if the lvl x is tuned properly.

i don't get the point of this thread; you're trying to justify the use of a lvl 7 over a lvl x? you don't need to...use whatever bolt you want man, you can make either one work. there is no debate over which bolt is more useful; clearly the lvl x has benefits over a lvl 7. or if you want to tinker, try both out and see how it goes. you can go nuts with a lvl 7 and be fine, as long as it's fed fast enough.

[nak81783]

Just a guess. It'll obviously vary based on tank size, velocity, paint/barrel match, etc. The Level 7 seems to slowly taper off as you empty the tank, ending with a pressurized trigger but no more chuff chuff. The Level 10 gives you a very limited number of shots as you approach its operating pressure before the trigger just goes limp.

[Pneumagger]

this doesn't make sense to me; if it can fire a lvl 7 bolt it should fire a lvl x bolt just as well if the lvl x is tuned properly.

i don't get the point of this thread; you're trying to justify the use of a lvl 7 over a lvl x? you don't need to...use whatever bolt you want man, you can make either one work. there is no debate over which bolt is more useful; clearly the lvl x has benefits over a lvl 7. or if you want to tinker, try both out and see how it goes. you can go nuts with a lvl 7 and be fine, as long as it's fed fast enough.

My goal is simple: Build the fastest woodsball gun I can that is still playable and reliable. So I'm using an EP frame (many solenoid like LPR <75psi), Ninja SHP reg, and a Qloader (documented to support 35+bps sustained). I'm not trying to justify the L7 over the LX... L7 does have higher potential max ROF, which is my goal. So, since it's very unlikely to outrun a Qloader, I figured I could get away with using a L7 (faster). A side-benefit of this decision may even be ease of tuning the pneumatics without having to keep a LX in tune as well. Although for actually playing games on the field, keeping a tuned LX on hand and dialing back the ROF a few BPS would be wise.

My only unknown, and the point of this thread, was to ask if the higher sear-bolt disengagement force would result in a significant LPR increase since blowing solenoids sucks. Turns out the potential answer is that between the greater sear force and decreased on/off force... it's a wash. This also seems supported by the fact that people (I suppose myself included) have never seemed to feel a notable difference either.

[Spider-TW]

My goal is simple: Build the fastest woodsball gun I can that is still playable and reliable. So I'm using an EP frame (many solenoid like LPR <75psi), Ninja SHP reg, and a Qloader (documented to support 35+bps sustained).

Those are neat, but only for about three seconds at a time.

[Pneumagger]

I plan on keeping a second vert feed body with a Pinokio Speed on hand if the Qloader thing isn't ideal. So even in a more normal configuration, it will be stupid fast. But when I play woodsball, I don't seem to use much paint anyways. A 3 pod pack should give me 400 rounds total.

[athomas]

Throw a red spring on a level 7 bolt. It won't affect the forward bolt velocity and will knock about 3lbs of force off the forward force that the bolt hits the ball with.

A typical level 7 bolt with a gold spring pushes forward with about 10lbs of force. A level 10 with a red spring pushes with about 3lbs of force. A level 7 with a red spring pushes with about 7lbs of force. Now, the red spring won't affect the overall operation of the level 7 as much as people would think. A red spring actually has a lower spring constant than a gold spring. But because it is compressed more at the start, it exerts more force than the gold spring at the start of the stroke. The gold spring surpasses the compressed force of the red spring as it reaches its full compression. The result is that a level 7 bolt with a red spring will travel at about the same average velocity as a level 7 bolt with a gold spring. It just starts with less force. It is more force than a level 10 bolt with a gold spring, so it won't have the tuning issues of a level 10.

[Pneumagger]

Awesome info! If I might inquire, is there a reason the red spring is not standard configuration with a L7 bolt? Where does the silver spring stand in comparison to all this?

Surprisingly, even with my Level 10 bolts, I always ended up using the short gold spring anyways. It still doesn't chop the tougher paints out there.

[athomas]

Awesome info! If I might inquire, is there a reason the red spring is not standard configuration with a L7 bolt? Where does the silver spring stand in comparison to all this?

Surprisingly, even with my Level 10 bolts, I always ended up using the short gold spring anyways. It still doesn't chop the tougher paints out there.

The gold spring on a level 10 bolt hits with about 5lbs of force if I remember correctly. It is higher than using the red spring but still significantly lower than the gold spring on a level 7 bolt. The numbers are based on calculations using known measurements but don't take into account the friction variables. They are affected by each gun setup and the different operating pressures required to reach velocity, which affects the pressure in the chamber.

I have the silver spring info written down somewhere. It is the same stiffness as the red spring(?) That would make sense, since the level 10 kits now ship with just the grey springs(instead of the red and grey) so you can cut them down to whatever length you need. It is longer in stock configuration than the red spring, so the bolt starts with very little forward force on it, but more than the red spring because is starts with more compression than the red spring. The grey spring would also have more stored energy fully compressed. I think the gold spring provides more return force than the silver spring when fully compressed, but don't quote me on that one.

I couldn't find any of my info on the grey spring. I couldn't accurately measure it because all my grey springs are cut. If anyone has the length and spring constant of a new grey spring, post it.

[livinglikeakid]

The red spring is the strongest used for chronograph speeds toward 280 range and can reset if a block is encountered. The gold standard spring is the next strongest. I leave it in most of the time. I really don't like changing pieces with changes in weather so I'm going to run a lvl7 on my Xvavle and stop monkeying around. Trigger pull feels a little lighter with the lvl7. Not sure about chopping since haven't run balls through it yet but it cycles well. RTs too easily with standard pressure.

[cockerpunk]

All else being equal, does a level 7 bolt setup produce a heavier trigger when compared to a properly installed Level 10? In theory, with the Level 10 having less initial forward force on the sear, I would think the level 10 unlatches from the sear more easily... but does this translate to reality? Or s it insignificant?

Because if there's no appreciable difference, I would think a Level 7 wouldn't be a bad choice given modern loader feed rates that would be difficult to outshoot (Rotor II, Pinokio Speed, Qloader, etc). So a Level 7 should be faster at the top end of the BPS scale compared to the LX (giving a loader more open breech time to feed) and there obviously much fewer tuning and bolt stick issues for the electro/pneu mag enthusiasts.

Basically, distilled down to the core of my reasoning, why choose LX (and any of it's headaches) over a level 7 with a modern super-loader.

1. because even modern loads skip. its a sad but true reality

2. because the Level 10 is about half the weight of a level 7, so less kick

3. because the level 10 is easier on paint than a level 7, meaning, less barrel breaks

4. the speed lost compared to a level 7 is not needed in paintball today. both bolts are capable of speeds in excess of all practical shooting applications

[Spider-TW]

4. the speed lost compared to a level 7 is not needed in paintball today. both bolts are capable of speeds in excess of all practical shooting applications

When shooting impractical speeds, your skips and end-of-loader come up more often. Once you chop, shooting any rate is just a pain, so even for silly rates the lvl 10 is still a good thing. Then you can be silly all day long.