Level 10 oddball leak troubleshooting - Update - figured out

[Pghp8ntballer]

Gentlemen and ladies (if on hand), I ask for your assistance troubleshooting a friend and fellow member's mag. Sorry it is long winded, but I am trying to give as much info as possible.

Specs - classic valve, ANS back and adjuster, ANS on/off valve, level 10, ULE body, intelliframe, RT-Pro (I think) rail.

Story - He had a very minor down-barrel leak and asked for help tuning the level 10 kit to eliminate it. He also wanted me to polish the parts up since they were rather dull. He acquired the marker sanded and poorly polished. We gave it a good cleaning and ran it across the buffer. Looks much better. On to the level 10 tuning following the instructions from the beginning... Several hours later and countless combinations, it leaks like crazy and in an odd manner. Oh by the way... Before we started the carrier it had in it, I believe the single line one, did not have the Oring on the outside It also did not have any shims in it.

Video of leak since I can't explain what it is doing...

Troubleshooting after the video was taken - I have a level 10 smart mag the is fully functional and leak free so I swapped parts until I narrowed it down. Reg back, on/off assembly, full level 10 kit.
With my level 10 kit (all pieces, including bolt, spring, and pt tip) resulted in a properly tuned and leak free marker. I then proceeded to swap out all pieces one by one. With his original Orings and the smallest carrier, no shims and my bolt I got it to stop leaking for about 10 shots. Then it started leaking down-barrel quite a bit. It changed when I pushed in on the bolt with a dowel rod but did not go away. If I swapped the bolt and spring over to his pieces it leaked like crazy and would do what it did in the video. The 3 smallest carriers all with different outer Orings result in the same thing.

Thoughts? Just get new Orings and start over again? Could the bolt be an issue? He bought the level 10 kit used and separately from the gun.

Thanks for the help,
Tony

[Cyco-Dude]

try a different carrier o-ring. is the bolt spring worn out?

[Pghp8ntballer]

We were following the instructions so most of the tests were done with the stock L7 spring. But a few tests did use the longer cut spring. My setup uses the black spring.

But why would it work fine for a handful of shots and change the leak by simply changing from his bolt and spring to mine if it was the carrier Oring?

I need to refill my tanks. We drained a 68/4500, 72/3000 and half a 7oz troubleshooting today

[Laku]

From the video the things I think might cause something like this.

Worn sear? Sear rod not properly adjusted, not big enough gap between trigger? Worn bolt lip? Something wrong with the on/off maybe? Have you tried switching your on/off to his valve?

Bolt stick might also be body valve alignment issue. Does pushing from back of the valve reset the bolt? If it does try to tighten the field strip screw more.

[Pghp8ntballer]

There is a credit card thick gap between the trigger and rod.

No obvious signs of sear wear or bolt wear, but I will look at it more closely.

I tried every part of my mag on his including on/offs and narrowed it to the level 10.

I did not try pushing on the back of the valve, but I make sure th front frame screw and thumbscrew are tight.

Putting my entire L10 kit on his gun eliminates all issues. Putting just my bolt on his gun changes it from the video issue to a bad down-barrel leak.

[Laku]

Ok. So possibly carrier size and/or o-ring need to be tuned. (At least when your bolt is on) Start with the carrier.

Before that I would closely compare and inspect the bolts and see what's different and that there's no damage. Is the one with issues similar in all ways?

On some bolts the center post/stem or whatever it is called can get loose and start to work its way out.

[Pghp8ntballer]

I think I need to start with fresh Orings for the level 10.

But is the power tube stem in the bolt threaded into the bolt itself? I did not know how it attached. The only different thing I noticed between the two bolts is a dimple on the stems. They seem to be at different heights. I wonder if the stem is unscrewing and we missed it.

Good food for thought.

[Laku]

It's not screwed, just press fitted I think.. anyway if you have calipers you can measure and see if there's difference in there.

[ChristianFromPitt]

Well, if I can't get the level 10 to work, throw back on the level 7 and see if that leaks.

[Pghp8ntballer]

O-rings are on order.

There is no notable wear on the bolt lip from the sear and the stem does not seem loose. That is as far as I got. No side by side comparisons for tonight.

[athomas]

It sounds to me like you have an on-off issue. Sort that out first, or it will cause sticking and leaking.

[Pghp8ntballer]

I parts swapped every part from my mag to his one at a time starting at the back and working forward. The issue arrises with his level 10 kit and is not present/is fully functional with his on/off and my level 10. That is why I swapped parts out. I thought it was a wonky on/off.

[athomas]

If air is escaping from the front with the trigger held, then the on-off has to be leaking. Air can't escape from the front if the trigger is held. It might initially, but as soon as the front chamber empties to a point where the force of air on the bolt is less than the force of the bolt spring pushing back, it stops. Even if the gun doesn't fire and the powertube oring/carrier oring leaks, then the air will only leak until the front chamber leaks down. It won't continue to gush out.

The continuous small leak when you release the trigger is a powertube carrier leak.

So, you have two issues that you need to deal with. The on-off issue needs to be fixed first, because it affects the operation of the bolt as well. You won't know for sure if the level 10 bolt issue is properly fixed if you don't fix the on-off, because the bolt won't reset properly with the on-off leaking.

[athomas]

You can verify whether the on-off is leaking. Install the valve with the bolt removed. Hold the trigger and turn on the gas. If the on-off is working properly, the air supply to the front chamber is shut off and no air will flow. If you gently release the trigger, you will hear the air start to flow until you pull and hold the trigger again. If air flows when the trigger is held, then the on-off is leaking.

[Spider-TW]

Is it shooting at about 280 fps? (or at least sound like it is, if you are that familiar with it) Low velocity setting on the reg can give you some odd behaviors with a level 10. I've gone around in circles with level 10 sizers only to figure out my velocity was too low for the bolt spring and sizer I was trying to use. Sometimes I had the spring pack out, or had just backed out the adjuster for storage.

That's after you get the on/off sorted out.

[Pghp8ntballer]

With all of his components including his on/off but with my level 10 kit, it dry-fired leak free and I chrono'd one ball at 283.

Hopefully ill get some time with it tonight

[ChristianFromPitt]

Tanks for your work on this.

I should have left the level 10 bolt alone, but having a tiny leak bothered me as in big games, a leaking marker means the longer you play, the less air you have to return fire.


Hopefully with new o-rings the leak subsides and the marker works like a dream. The polished look is real nice and with a level 10 bolt, she is completely modded to my liking.

Then I can buy that mag pistol and tinker with her after we get this up and running

[Nobody]

With a small leak in a mag, the 1st thing you should do is, 3-4 drops of oil in the valve(through the ASA or through the inlet) and this will take care of 90% of all leaks. The other 10% are either the orings in the on/off or powertube.

[Pghp8ntballer]

Oil in the ASA was the very first thing we tried. Lol.

[Pghp8ntballer]

The problem has been identified and corrected. The level 10 still needs tuned. Even with the smallest carrier, it still leaks. But the bizarre issue is fixed. More info will follow shortly.

[Pghp8ntballer]

Here we go. Thanks to all that offered thoughts and suggestions. I still need to get the new o-rings in and set up the level 10.

Here is a video of Christian's mag complete, his on/off, etc but with the complete level 10 kit from my mag. It is fully operational and leak free.
Nothing else was done to the mag aside from putting my L10 kit on it.

Test 1

In this video, the mag is all its own pieces, but I took the bolt off and aired up as suggested. No leaks with the trigger held down and an ear piercing air leak when the trigger is released.

Test 2

Last video shows his mag complete with his L10 pt tip and carrier, but my bolt. Leak free with the trigger held down, but leaks down barrel when its released.

Test 3


Laku was correct with his suggestion to compare parts. Christian's bolt center post had backed out causing the bizarre leak from the original post. A quick trip to the vise corrected it. It seems to be a press fit. Here are the before and after pics. My bolt is on the right in both pics.





Can anyone explain to me how exactly the extended bolt tip interferes with the marker operation in such a crazy manner? A diagram would be nice

I even put his bolt in my mag and tested just to make sure the bolt was ok.

[blackdeath1k]

Laku is an intelligent man even if he does live in Finland. :-P

Seriously though. Glad you found your problem and got it corrected.

[Laku]

I'm guessing the stem got backed out enough to pass the start of that narrow part (see pic below) behind the carrier and allow leak. Also it seems to have prevented the sear from catching the bolt and make it go full auto.
At least that's my theory of it.

[Pghp8ntballer]

Works for me! Thanks again!

[ChristianFromPitt]

Wow I am impressed you figured this out P8nt.


I was thinking about this last night and thought, it has to be the bolt. The level 7 bolt didn't leak at all.


Thanks for getting this tuned and setup.

[Pghp8ntballer]

No problem! As much as it is a head scratcher, I do enjoy doing it. Thanks for leaving it here. If you had taken the mag with you, it may have been a lot more drawn out. I needed to actually compare the bolts to see it.

[Tunaman]

when the bolt stem comes out again, mail it back to AGD for a new one. It shouldnt come out.

[Pghp8ntballer]

Even if it was bought used?

[Tunaman]

Even if it was bought used?

yes

[Pghp8ntballer]

Awesome! Thanks for that info sir!