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Thread: Aluminum Classic Valve

  1. #1
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    Aluminum Classic Valve

    With the NXL starting a mechanical division, can you see AGD making an aluminum, non reactive, classic valve to satisfy their rules?

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    Nope. But stranger things have happened.

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    it would be nice but I figure Tim will try to lobby them to allow X valves.

  4. #4
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    Can you put a classic on/off inside an x-valve to eliminate reactivity?

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    I think UWL rules disallows 'Mags as a whole. People seem to believe that will be the template. A non reactive valve seems to be the answer and a lighter one may bring some customers.

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    Define reactivity. A classic valve still uses air to reset the trigger. It's just regulated air, instead of unregulated air like an RT/X-Valve. Changing a classic valve to aluminum wouldn't change this. I would think with lower input pressures and tuning the on/off pin length, on/off o-rings, and trigger rod on an RT/X-Valve setup, all the bounce could be taken out of any of them. I cannot get my mechanical Automag with stock X-Valve to bounce with 800psi input. Change to a quad o-ring and up the input pressure, and that's a different story.

    Unfortunately, I think it would be easy for some to skirt the rules (admittedly, I haven't seen the rules) and get an Automag to bounce after it's been checked. I think a traditional mechanical disconnect is required (blowback) or an Autococker or other mechanical pneumatic where the pneumatics simply don't allow the marker to fire without a complete trigger pull and reset (that I'm aware of anyway).
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  7. #7
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    Sounds like they need a "Blowback Division".

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    With what I think they're trying to accomplish, I still say "gravity hoppers only" is the easiest way to go.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carnage reigns View Post
    With the NXL starting a mechanical division, can you see AGD making an aluminum, non reactive, classic valve to satisfy their rules?


    It will probably not be a blip on the radar, the large majority of mech players play woodsball not speedball.



    So yeah, no one cares.



    "When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty." Thomas Jefferson

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by nak81783 View Post
    Define reactivity.
    Reactivity is any force that resets the trigger which is greater than the minimum force required to pull said trigger. It shouldn't matter how the trigger is reset. Whether it's done with a spring, with air pressure, or with magic pixies is irrelevant as long as the reset force is less than the minimum force required to fire the gun.

  11. #11
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    I'll buy that, but putting an RT/X-valve on/off assembly in a Classic Valve would meet that definition, wouldn't it? Sure, it doesn't provide the reset force of an RT/X-valve, just like I can't bounce my X-valve, but it would still violate the definition. A simple way to skirt the rule for a small performance gain, namely a lighter trigger pull. So where is the line drawn? Letter vs intent.

  12. #12
    I still think someone will need to come up with a way to test for trigger pull and return force--that would be the only way to ensure a given marker doesn't violate the RT rules.


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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by nak81783 View Post
    I'll buy that, but putting an RT/X-valve on/off assembly in a Classic Valve would meet that definition, wouldn't it? Sure, it doesn't provide the reset force of an RT/X-valve, just like I can't bounce my X-valve, but it would still violate the definition. A simple way to skirt the rule for a small performance gain, namely a lighter trigger pull. So where is the line drawn? Letter vs intent.
    The classic valve does not supply any force to resetting the trigger. Using a RT on/off assembly is just changing the way the on/off returns, and not using any air.

    Having an Xvalve not bounce is not a bad thing, mind you.

  14. #14
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    I disagree. If not air pressure, what does reset a Classic Valve trigger?

    Agreed; I don't like bounce. Just stating mine doesn't in stock form and others that do bounce from the factory can be tuned not to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nak81783 View Post
    I disagree. If not air pressure, what does reset a Classic Valve trigger?

    Agreed; I don't like bounce. Just stating mine doesn't in stock form and others that do bounce from the factory can be tuned not to.
    I'll ammend that. Air pressure does not push it back like in an Xvalve where that is effect is a feature. The classic is reset by air to the on/off, which pushes against the sear, resetting the trigger. But the force is not anywhere close in a classic valve to that of an Xvalve.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by armymanadam View Post
    I still think someone will need to come up with a way to test for trigger pull and return force--that would be the only way to ensure a given marker doesn't violate the RT rules.
    Rely on 19 year old refs to get it right ?

    Not going to happen.

    They will either have to allow or ban Automags.

    If they ban them it will be all cockers and a few Tippmans.

    And will be short lived like the pump games they tried.

  17. #17
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    A classic valve and rt valve trigger reset exactly the same way. Air pressure pushes on the top of the on off pin and it resets due to that air force. The difference in the two is simply that regulated air is what pushes on the pin with a classic 100% of the time. But unregulated air pushes on a rt valve on off pin once the dump chamber has been emptied. So the closer you can get the regulated and un regulated (to the valve) air on a rt valve the less reactive the valve will be.

    I don't foresee this series lasting all that long. It won't have enough support to stay going. A field up north did a tournament this past summer that would work well and be easy to regulate though. Batteries not included. Basically you could use a electric gun with a NON force fed loader or you could use a mechanical gun with any loader you wanted. It was a pretty good ballance. Only other thing they would need to add is no markers with a tank input pressure above 850 and call it a day. If they started having an issue with rt owners manipulating on off pin length to cheat the system. Then just force the RT users to use a non force fed hopper as well.
    Last edited by blackdeath1k; 02-03-2017 at 07:45 PM.

  18. #18
    I don't know what the official definition of "reactivity" is. But I'm a simple man so I'll just play Captain Obvious...

    Per the actual word itself, I would think that the force has to "react" to some event or input.

    A typical trigger return spring isn't reacting to anything but you pulling the trigger, and you can pretty much pull on it during any phase of firing. I.e. it ignores inputs or states pretty much.

    So... this is where it gets touchy, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Just kind of assume ideal conditions.

    In a Classic Mag, the regulator is upstream of the on/off pin and pretty much always tries to provide the same pressure to the on/off, then to the dump chamber. So for all intents and purposes, it's just like a return spring.

    Hypothetical: assume you lock the bolt down so it cannot move and wantonly pull on the trigger (on/off). The pressure should always be the same. If you let the bolt go, more or less the pressure should be the same. It ignores the state of the bolt/dump chamber, and hence the gun itself.

    In an RT Mag, there is a feedback path from the dump chamber directly to the reg piston, and the on/off sees unregulated pressure when the piston is open.

    Hypothetical: assume you lock the bolt down so it cannot move and wantonly pull on the trigger (on/off). That pressure is always the same. However, if you let the bolt go, the feedback path opens up, and the on/off doesn't see regulated pressure anymore -- it sees unregulated pressure.

    So the return force on the RT actually reacts to the state of the gun, i.e. the state of the dump chamber.

    I think the same categorization would apply to the Tippmann Response Trigger -- again, implicit to the name, it has to respond to something. If you never actually fire the gun, the Tippmann RT does nothing. Only when you fire the gun and produce blowback gas does it do anything.



    Having said all that, I think the whole thing is fruity and meaningless anyways. They should just allow it. Mechanical means no batteries and they should leave it at that.

    Unfortunately, you will find that behind every sh*tty rule is a sh*tty human being that wants to carve sh*tty distinctions out because he just wants to be sh*tty. This applies to other rule formats as well sometimes. *cough* "magfed".
    "Accuracy by aiming."


    Definitely not on the A-Team.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackdeath1k View Post
    A field up north did a tournament this past summer that would work well and be easy to regulate though. Batteries not included. Basically you could use a electric gun with a NON force fed loader or you could use a mechanical gun with any loader you wanted. It was a pretty good ballance. Only other thing they would need to add is no markers with a tank input pressure above 850 and call it a day. If they started having an issue with rt owners manipulating on off pin length to cheat the system. Then just force the RT users to use a non force fed hopper as well.
    You edited to add the last bit before I could respond to suggest it. Regardless, I'm curious what most players chose. By "good balance", did you mean 50/50-ish of each in attendance, or it leveled the playing field no matter one's gear? Also, what would most on AO choose? I've ran the X-Mag with a gravity hopper occasionally and the mechanical X-valve Automag with a force-feed hopper frequently. I'd easily choose the latter. The two are essentially equivalent in terms of chop protection; ACE on the X-Mag is redundant, albeit welcome. I can also shoot them about the same bps in short to medium bursts (X-Mag is set at 10bps semi). I would choose the mechanical marker with force-feed hopper simply for the uninterrupted supply of paint to the marker.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by nak81783 View Post
    You edited to add the last bit before I could respond to suggest it. Regardless, I'm curious what most players chose. By "good balance", did you mean 50/50-ish of each in attendance, or it leveled the playing field no matter one's gear? Also, what would most on AO choose? I've ran the X-Mag with a gravity hopper occasionally and the mechanical X-valve Automag with a force-feed hopper frequently. I'd easily choose the latter. The two are essentially equivalent in terms of chop protection; ACE on the X-Mag is redundant, albeit welcome. I can also shoot them about the same bps in short to medium bursts (X-Mag is set at 10bps semi). I would choose the mechanical marker with force-feed hopper simply for the uninterrupted supply of paint to the marker.
    Ha-ha. Yah. I edited that because I knew someone would point out pin manipulation.

    By good ballance I just meant that unless I'm missing something the best mech guns of the late 90s are still the best mech guns. IE mags and cockers. Everything went electro after that. A mag or cocker can be shot in the 10bps realm. An electro marker without FF will be in the 10 bps realm. So short of the RT effect manipulation you have a close ballance with minimum rules to marker.

    Personally once electro ramping and all the other stuff became main stream the ban on the AGD RT should have been lifted. WTF is the difference in a full mech marker running wide open without eyes or a electro marker running wide open a couple bps less but with eyes to guarantee no chops or Chuff. It's not like any companies would really invest in more mech markers. An electro marker is so cheap to produce once the development is done.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by nak81783 View Post
    You edited to add the last bit before I could respond to suggest it. Regardless, I'm curious what most players chose. By "good balance", did you mean 50/50-ish of each in attendance, or it leveled the playing field no matter one's gear? Also, what would most on AO choose? I've ran the X-Mag with a gravity hopper occasionally and the mechanical X-valve Automag with a force-feed hopper frequently. I'd easily choose the latter. The two are essentially equivalent in terms of chop protection; ACE on the X-Mag is redundant, albeit welcome. I can also shoot them about the same bps in short to medium bursts (X-Mag is set at 10bps semi). I would choose the mechanical marker with force-feed hopper simply for the uninterrupted supply of paint to the marker.
    I'd choose the mech Mag because both the X-Mag and a full hopper are stupid heavy...

    To be clear, I wouldn't particularly mind a modified rule division or whatever where you allow electro hopper or gun or whatever (one or the other) because that's an expansive (or inclusive) modification.

    I'm more interested in inclusion and consistency, as opposed to exclusion and inconsistency.

    I don't think paintball needs to be exclusive and exclusionary (and inconsistent for that matter). If someone shows up to play with some marker that would otherwise be legal but for some stupid contrived inconsistency in the ruleset carved out by some fickle rulemaker... just let them play.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoatBoy View Post
    I'd choose the mech Mag because both the X-Mag and a full hopper are stupid heavy...
    What are the weights of the various stock AGD markers produced over the years? I thought there were numerous pretty thorough threads on this, but searching isn't producing very good results.

  23. #23
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    I'd be happy with the availability of new Classic valves in stainless.

  24. #24
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    Problem is in todays economy they'd probably have to sell for half what a new Xvalve costs, and they wouldnt sell.

    Especially when there are likely 10's of thousands of used ones around for $35-ish.

  25. #25
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    I would love to see an aluminum classic valve. I have spoken to Tim about it, I don't think it's on the radar. XMT tried to drum up interest a while back but there didn't seem to be much.

    Another interesting point that I was reminded of, NOT ONE SINGLE AGD GUN LEAVES THE FACTORY WITH TRIGGER BOUNCE. The NXL problem is two fold;

    1- how to adequately make sure that Mag dont get more than one shot per pull
    and
    2 - (this is my own $.02) AGD does not have money in the league, is not throwing money around, or has any sponsored teams.

    Other than a minority of people (you can guess who) that want to see mags in the mech division of the NXL, the rest could care less. I'm also sure that none of them want to come up against them.

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    Simon seems to be attempting to include Automags ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigEvil View Post
    Another interesting point that I was reminded of, NOT ONE SINGLE AGD GUN LEAVES THE FACTORY WITH TRIGGER BOUNCE.
    Could you clarify the difference between RT and trigger bounce? Seems like any trigger that kicks back harder than you had to pull can be held to bounce.

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by nak81783 View Post
    What are the weights of the various stock AGD markers produced over the years? I thought there were numerous pretty thorough threads on this, but searching isn't producing very good results.
    I don't have a full list, although component part weights are easier to find.

    I think the Classic came in close to 2lbs even.

    I believe the X-Mag came in at 2.7lbs. The X-Mag has all kinds of fanciness in it, but it's "Abandon all hope" as soon as you put the aluminum grip frame with the solenoid + the battery on there.

    I'm just gonna... leave this here.



    I'd like an aluminum Classic as the X-Valve is still lighter than my Vigilante-valve setup by almost an ounce, but let's face it -- it's not happening.

  29. #29
    Just make ruling on tank output pressure, done.

  30. #30
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    Reactivity on any gun results when the return force of the trigger is greater than the force required to pull activate the shot. It doesn't matter what gun it is on. If you provide feedback and there is enough force differentical between the pull and reset, you will get trigger bounce.

    There should be a standard set such that the return force cannot be more than some percentage above the the trigger activation force. That would fix all arguements and make any mechanical gun legal as long as it meets the standard.
    Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.

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